The Worgen - Goblin monk (8.2.5)

[GreenJesus]

while i agree with goblins not being monks, worgen would actually make complete sense. for the same reason i think a void elf monk makes sense.

mastering yourself and achieving serenity through monk teachings goes a long way towards helping with the inherent problems the worgen face with rage.

I think the one thing limiting worgen is their starting zone. Would Pandaren have trained Gilneans while the wall was closed? However the cataclysm happened years ago and after 60 we go back in time to burning crusade. After cataclysm revamp they kind of lost the lore consistency excuse.

[Kyphael]

Where do you think Arugal came from? and do you think the bilgwater cartel only existed in Kezan? ther eis logic behind, not perfect, but tis something, it gives yout he freedom to say you could be a goblin from another cartel but find a home whiting the horde, they re supposed to enter after the fall of the LK in lore, this was not possible with monks in that time

they can do now fine if they want.

the only point is gameplay reasons for their starting zone being heavily tied with the DW arrival and being locked in time, again, there is no lore reasons for that.

That's your personal head canon though, not what is stated in lore and in game play. Playable Goblins are the goblins from the Isle of Kezan after its destruction from Deathwing's awakening, not goblins from Booty Bay or any other Cartel. You can role-play all you want but you can't use it as evidence to twist the debate in your favor. Likewise, Arugal's worgen and those from Silverpine were mindless beasts immune to The Lich King's control. All playable Worgen are Gilneans.

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yes they are but there is only like 20-30 of them lore wise.

The fact we don't even have a number means it's just spit balling. Is it 20 or 30? Ten is a huge discrepancy. If anything every player character is an interchangeable support character represented by a dozen roles or more in lore.

[Syegfryed]

That's your personal head canon though,

thats rly funny coming from you, since mostly you did here is providing your personal headcanon and veiled bias

Playable Goblins are the goblins from the Isle of Kezan after its destruction from Deathwing's awakening, not goblins from Booty Bay or any other Cartel.

nowhere is said the DK goblins come from the isle of Kezan after the destruction of it.

Hailing from the Steamwheedle Cartel rather than the Bilgewater Cartel, goblin death knights are just as likely to go their own way as they are to join the Horde with the other death knights for safety in numbers

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Death_knight_races#Goblin

You can role-play all you want but you can't use it as evidence to twist the debate in your favor.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Death_knight_races#Goblin

Likewise, Arugal's worgen and those from Silverpine were mindless beasts immune to The Lich King's control. All playable Worgen are Gilneans.

A bloodthirsty, savage, intelligent and lethal race, the worgen who were raised from Arugal's dead are an intimidating presence to behold. With the strength of wolves combined with unholy and frost magic, worgen are augmented beyond what some mortals could hope to achieve. Unlike Gilneas City worgen, those who were raised from Arugal's batch are likely to be more bloodthirsty and potentially reckless. As such, they are a danger to behold on the battlefield and in a frenzy, even allies may want to keep their distance.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Death_knight_races#Worgen

[Piamonte]

the worgens were behind a wall and the goblins are not the kind of race who seek spiritual enlightement.

[khazmodan]

There's no real reason why either race can't be Monks. All Blizzard has to say is that Goblin Monks are individuals who've come to reject their mainstream culture of greed. Worgen can just be seeking further peace from their curse. IIRC, it has something to do with amount of people playing these races or something.

Obviously this would necessitate losing; "the Best Deals Anywhere, Goblin Racial,
Always receive the best possible gold discount, regardless of faction".

and also possibly; "Time is Money, Goblin Racial,
Cash in on a 1% increase to haste".

Who would pick goblin with these losses?

[Traveler Voltin]

That's your personal head canon though, not what is stated in lore and in game play. Playable Goblins are the goblins from the Isle of Kezan after its destruction from Deathwing's awakening, not goblins from Booty Bay or any other Cartel. You can role-play all you want but you can't use it as evidence to twist the debate in your favor. Likewise, Arugal's worgen and those from Silverpine were mindless beasts immune to The Lich King's control. All playable Worgen are Gilneans.

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The fact we don't even have a number means it's just spit balling. Is it 20 or 30? Ten is a huge discrepancy. If anything every player character is an interchangeable support character represented by a dozen roles or more in lore.

lore only says a group of adventures, so i am guessing at least 20. wait i forgot about the factions for a moment. correction at least 40 all together.

[Destinas]

No. Goblin monks don't make any sense with how they're a very selfish, profit-obsessed race. But then again, they somehow got to be shamans.

Gakkiz Blusterblast would like to have a word with you.

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That's your personal head canon though, not what is stated in lore and in game play. Playable Goblins are the goblins from the Isle of Kezan after its destruction from Deathwing's awakening, not goblins from Booty Bay or any other Cartel. You can role-play all you want but you can't use it as evidence to twist the debate in your favor. Likewise, Arugal's worgen and those from Silverpine were mindless beasts immune to The Lich King's control. All playable Worgen are Gilneans.

Technically, no. The Worgen and Goblin DKs are actually not from the same areas as the other playable classes, as evidenced in the quest A Special Surprise.

Goblin DKs are from the Steamwheedle Cartel originally:

Gally Lumpstain says: You don't remember me, <name>? I lost count of the number of jobs you and I ran back in the day on Kezan. Then I picked up a real bad [Kaja'Cola] habit and you saved me! It was you who took me to Kalimdor to join the Steamwheedle Cartel. You were the only good goblin I knew. That's how I ended up in the Argent Dawn, because I knew it's what you woulda done. How could this have happened to you?

Worgen DKs were in the service of Arugal:

Lord Harford says: You don't remember me? We were both servants of Arugal back in Silverpine Forest. We put up with his merciless torture for ages. It was you who saved me on that fateful night when we escaped Shadowfang Keep.

So, no, Worgen from outside Gilneas are not immune to the Lich King's control at all.

Of course, like you said, anyone can RP as anything. But that is the lore presented in-game.

[Kyphael]

thats rly funny coming from you, since mostly you did here is providing your personal headcanon and veiled bias

You're getting mad at me as if I'm the one who's written Goblins as greedy bastards. Go complain to Blizzard in how they write them.

nowhere is said the DK goblins come from the isle of Kezan after the destruction of it.

It was always assumed since Blizzard said it themselves they opened the two races up to DK for the rule of cool more than logical lore.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Death_knight_races#Goblin

So they retconned their own lore to make something in game fit. Wouldn't be the first time and won't be the last. They haven't done it for Goblin Monks yet, though.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Death_knight_races#Goblin

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Death_knight_races#Worgen

I'll concede since you actually cited something official I wasn't aware of, even though it doesn't make sense lore-wise according to how Blizzard established Worgen were able to regain even a shred of sanity, which didn't involve Arugal's Worgen who never came in contact with the Gilnean chemical cure or the Scepter of Elune, but whatever, another retcon to fit game play.

Listen, I get it, Blizzard moved things around and retconned Worgen and Goblin lore so some could in lore become DK's, that's fine, you're right, I'm not going to debate that any further. But Goblins becoming Monks in my opinion, doesn't make sense in lore because of how Goblins have been historically portrayed. Are there a few examples? Sure, and maybe that's enough for you to say Goblins can be Monks, but in my opinion, it isn't. Goblins are better portrayed when they don't deviate from the core personality traits that made them interesting to begin with. Greed is at a core of what makes a goblin, it's ingrained in all of their /silly jokes, their flirts, every word they utter centers around how comically greedy they are. That's all I need or want from Goblins. If you strip a goblin of their comical role, which apparently Blizzard has no interest in, then really, what are they but sawed off Orcs with bigger ears?

[Ielenia]

Yet we got void elves that have the same issues as worgen.

Not really. The reasoning, in my mind, the monk's mental training regimen allows the void elves to better deal with the whispers in their minds.

The worgen are different as in their minds are too restless to be able to focus on meditating, at all, due to the ferocity imposed on them by the curse.

And Dwarfs also have greed in them like Goblins.

What? That's like saying trolls short like goblins.

[Kyphael]

Gakkiz Blusterblast would like to have a word with you.

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Technically, no. The Worgen and Goblin DKs are actually not from the same areas as the other playable classes, as evidenced in the quest A Special Surprise.

Goblin DKs are from the Steamwheedle Cartel originally:


Worgen DKs were in the service of Arugal:


So, no, Worgen from outside Gilneas are not immune to the Lich King's control at all.

Of course, like you said, anyone can RP as anything. But that is the lore presented in-game.

Thanks for the added citations, I'll concede I completely jumped to conclusions without first researching DK goblins/worgen based on just a quote from Blizzard said they'd make them available at Cataclysm because they thought they were too cool to exclude.

[Hallowseve17]

I think it's time to add worgen and goblin monks. Such a shame that monks are tied to pandaren. Any other game or fantasy setting would depict them as brawlers or fighters who specialize in martial arts. That's how it should be in WoW.

In recent times, they've bent paladin lore, showing that paladins can receive their powers from their deities. Do the same for worgen and goblins. A worgen monk would be a typical, ferocious worgen who fights with their claws, a goblin monk would be a brawler who spends too much time drinking, gambling, and getting into fights. These are simple solutions for a well-overdue race/class combo.

[Halyon]

So never, in the history of ever, have you seen a movie or, hell, a real-life dojo where the master is greedy and profit-driven, perverting the tenets he was taught in favor of making cash off gullible fools who think learning a few basic punches turns them into the next Chen Stormstout?

That would really be so far beyond the goblins' swindling and scheming?

Karate Kid. We're not talking about everything else though, talking about WoW specifically. While 1 exception has now been named, I do not personally think it warrants goblins getting monk.

[Destinas]

Thanks for the added citations, I'll concede I completely jumped to conclusions without first researching DK goblins/worgen based on just a quote from Blizzard said they'd make them available at Cataclysm because they thought they were too cool to exclude.

Yeah, it's not exactly a concrete piece of evidence. Most playable Worgen and Goblins would be as they are presented, from Gilneas and Bilgewater. But it's definitely not impossible that some could be from other places. Like how Draenei now could be from Argus, Outland, or AU Draenor if the player wanted, or Lightforged Draenei could be from Argus on the Xenedar, or newly-made Lightforged (like we see with T'Paartos). The lore's there, but it's not the majority, most likely.

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Karate Kid. We're not talking about everything else though, talking about WoW specifically. While 1 exception has now been named, I do not personally think it warrants goblins getting monk.

Before MoP there was one named human monk (with more in the Scalret/Argent Crusades) and one named Blood Elf monk. Jed'hin wasn't a concrete part of lore until Legion, yet Draenei were able to be monks in MoP with everyone else. Dark Irons were able to be monks, despite the fact that the most they have is brewmasters, without really any sort of lore for any Dwarven/Dark Iron martial arts.

Not everything has to be about the balance and harmony in order to be a monk, when we've had many examples of people learning how to punch and kick properly without any sort of mistweaving or peaceful teachings. The human and Blood Elf I mentioned before worked for the Scarlet Crusade and the Legion, respectively, which we know that both do not have peaceful teachings. We've also seen other Goblins that just punch people, without being any sort of specific class.

[Syegfryed]

You're getting mad at me as if I'm the one who's written Goblins as greedy bastards. Go complain to Blizzard in how they write them.

im not getting mad at someone just because they are wrong at something, i said ii find it funny, again, there is no need to complaint since blizzard himself writer goblins who don't are greedy bastards too.

It was always assumed since Blizzard said it themselves they opened the two races up to DK for the rule of cool more than logical lore.

keyword here you and others assumed, no proof, just personal headcanon

They haven't done it for Goblin Monks yet, though.

but there is nothing in lore preventing then to be monks, just a gameplay and starting zone thing.

even though it doesn't make sense lore-wise according to how Blizzard established Worgen were able to regain even a shred of sanity,

Worgen death knights are entirely of their own minds once freed, the bestial instincts having been shattered by the Lich King's will and their self-control having been restored after the Battle for Light's Hope Chapel. The result is similar to a worgen who has drank from the wells of the Wild Home

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Ask_CDev#A...wers_-_Round_3

Listen, I get it, Blizzard moved things around and retconned Worgen and Goblin lore so some could in lore become DK's, that's fine,

The DK worgen thing is from 2012-2013, there is no retcon on that, don't say its retcon just because you didn't knew or were wrong about it.

But Goblins becoming Monks in my opinion, doesn't make sense in lore because of how Goblins have been historically portrayed. Are there a few examples? Sure, and maybe that's enough for you to say Goblins can be Monks, but in my opinion, it isn't.

its perfectly fine yo you have this opinion, your opinion is wrong regardless because is based on wrong facts and personal bias/point of view who don't reflect reality

goblins of wow are not like the ones in lord of the rings and not all goblins are greedy bastards and this have been proof as canon fact, you can spin and twist all you want but not all goblins are like that, and they can be monks just fine.

you saying monsters races, ones who are bloodthirsty other with madness of the void can be exceptions and look into the monk ways but goblins somehow can't is just bias

That's all I need or want from Goblins. If you strip a goblin of their comical role, which apparently Blizzard has no interest in, then really, what are they but sawed off Orcs with bigger ears?

your entire points goes null when you have gnomes who look way more goofy and are way more a comic relief than goblins and they can be monks despise they having obviously a pathetic body who don't fit the physical combat of a monk.

yes they can be stripped from comic relief, there are good stories with then in BfA without it.

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Not really. The reasoning, in my mind, the monk's mental training regimen allows the void elves to better deal with the whispers in their minds.

The worgen are different as in their minds are too restless to be able to focus on meditating, at all, due to the ferocity imposed on them by the curse.
.

why the monk training would help one not fall in the madness of the void but can't help to quiet down their ferocity? they already do that without meditation

monks and meditation let you control and focus your anger/ferocity to a task ahead, why worgens would not being able to do that if orcs can do the same controlling the bloodfury?

[12yoPlayedSinceClassic]

I just hate the fact, that Gnomes can be monks. I wanted my small size Goblin Monk.

[Ielenia]

why the monk training would help one not fall in the madness of the void but can't help to quiet down their ferocity? they already do that without meditation

monks and meditation let you control and focus your anger/ferocity to a task ahead, why worgens would not being able to do that if orcs can do the same controlling the bloodfury?

Because, as I reason it, the worgens' minds are too restless and actual unable to focus on meditation, due to the curse. Meanwhile, the void elves' mind is still unaltered, they just have the whispers they're taught to quieten from the get-go before they're released for duty.

[Kyphael]

im not getting mad at someone just because they are wrong at something, i said ii find it funny, again, there is no need to complaint since blizzard himself writer goblins who don't are greedy bastards too.

You've cited a few examples but have yet to actually refute the fact even the ones who are heroic don't do it first and foremost for hefty compensation but I suppose the lack of evidence is not evidence of absence. However, until a goblin goes "yeah, unlike all my Goblin kin, I don't do this for da money, ya know? I'm not a greedy bastard like the rest, I'd like to show Azeroth not all goblins are scum bags, ya dig?" then it's safe to assume based on how Blizzard has always portrayed goblins, the vast majority are indeed greedy bastards.

but there is nothing in lore preventing then to be monks, just a gameplay and starting zone thing.

Obviously enough, isn't it? Do we have Goblin Monks? No. Does it mean we never will? Yes. Is it because of lore? Arguable. Is it because of how Goblin have been portrayed that doesn't mesh with Blizzard's idea of Monk principles? Perhaps.

The DK worgen thing is from 2012-2013, there is no retcon on that, don't say its retcon just because you didn't knew or were wrong about it.

It's a retcon back then if we're told in the Worgen starting zone the only way for a Worgen to overcome their primeval urges is through the temporary Gilnean cure and Scythe of Elune and circumvent that to say Arugal's Worgen could become DK's and aren't immune to the Lich King's magic, and that only extends to Gilneans but it's Blizzard's lore, they can do what they wish. Obviously they just saw fit to twist it so Goblins could be DK's and not monks, though.

its perfectly fine yo you have this opinion, your opinion is wrong regardless because is based on wrong facts and personal bias/point of view who don't reflect reality

I'm not biased, I don't hate Goblins, a Goblin Monk just isn't logical to me. But if you want to go that route and throw shade, then I can easily say your opinion is wrong because we do not IN FACT have Goblin Monks, and until we do, it's obviously because A) Blizzard doesn't think they make sense, B) They can't be arsed to change the starting zone, which really can't be that difficult if they really wanted it and thought it was worth the effort, or C) They think Goblin shamans is enough while Gnomes have Monks and don't want to whore out class/race restrictions to open all for all. Take your pick.

goblins of wow are not like the ones in lord of the rings and not all goblins are greedy bastards and this have been proof as canon fact, you can spin and twist all you want but not all goblins are like that, and they can be monks just fine.

Examples are far and few in between. Azeroth's goblins are very similar to Tolkien's, in fact, but WoW has fleshed them out a bit better, yet they're still an awfully 2-dimensional, albeit endearing comic relief race. So are gnomes, and gnomes get monks. Gnomes aren't greedy bastards so they get that, goblins got shamans.

you saying monsters races, ones who are bloodthirsty other with madness of the void can be exceptions and look into the monk ways but goblins somehow can't is just bias

Now who's biased? The Forsaken are not an universally evil hive mind, in fact, they are distinct exactly because they are the opposite of The Scourge. Sylvanas is dragging their name through the dirt, and I've had my own opinion on the meaning behind their existence in a post Arthas Azeroth, but they have shown that they are not all irredeemably evil. Void Elves are also the antithesis of evil as they successfully fight back the Void's whispers telling them to kill their friends and family. You're confusing something though. The goblins all being greedy bastards isn't a negative thing, for their race it fits, it's core to their race's culture; everything is profit, everything has a price, and it's hilarious. That's their role in the story. They're not supposed to be paladin heroes who unselfishly fight the good fight for the benefit of all without caring if there is any profit to be earned. Some obviously can become priests, but that has no bearing on their moral fiber or lack there of; the light will answer anyone devout enough, even a goblin wanting to be a medic for his or her own personal gain. If you want goblins turned into a race of selfless, heroic point-eared heroes, go for it, but Blizzard doesn't seem to agree, and the 5% of their population that may seem somewhat decent doesn't represent the vast majority of goblin mentality and characterization.

your entire points goes null when you have gnomes who look way more goofy and are way more a comic relief than goblins and they can be monks despise they having obviously a pathetic body who don't fit the physical combat of a monk.

You don't say? Gnomes are a joke race like goblins. Doesn't mean goblins have to be monks since they already have shamans.

yes they can be stripped from comic relief, there are good stories with then in BfA without it.

They can be, but should they be? That's up to Blizzard to decide, and based on how Gallywix continues to behave, you know, the only goblin character that has a meaningful role in the lore, that doesn't seem like a direction they want to take goblin lore in. Get back to me when a selfless, heroic goblin monk has a pivotal role in the story and at least becomes Trade Prince. Until then, the "noble" goblin characters you tout are in the minority and not the status quo of goblin characterization.

[Biske]

The thing is, Goblins are known as a joke race. That's reflected by their racial leader. Name one great goblin character important to WoW history. You'll be hard pressed to find it. Greed is a goblin staple and defining trait that makes them endearing to begin with. They're the scum bags of WoW, the morally corrupt and proud of it.

I'm late to the party, but I'm surprised no one mentioned him: Helix Blackfuse. He's the one that designed all the technology the Iron Horde used and the mag'har still use. He created the iron star, which saw use even as far back as during the siege of Orgrimmar. His protégé Pauli (first boss in Grimrail Depot) was considerably less important and basically just lived off of Blackfuse's legacy, but it allowed him to design the technology that was used for the armored trains and such.

Blackfuse is as much responsible for the Iron Horde existing as Garrosh is (otherwise, it would just be another regular Horde).

[Kyphael]

I'm late to the party, but I'm surprised no one mentioned him: Helix Blackfuse. He's the one that designed all the technology the Iron Horde used and the mag'har still use. He created the iron star, which saw use even as far back as during the siege of Orgrimmar. His protégé Pauli (first boss in Grimrail Depot) was considerably less important and basically just lived off of Blackfuse's legacy, but it allowed him to design the technology that was used for the armored trains and such.

Blackfuse is as much responsible for the Iron Horde existing as Garrosh is (otherwise, it would just be another regular Horde).

A pretty good point and good use of Goblin ingenuity to provide them a role, but it's still a supporting character role. Every Horde race but goblins have renowned NPC's that appear in cut scenes and cinematics, as well as roles in entire questing zones that move the narrative forward. Goblin characters are relegated to niche supporting roles.

[Powerogue]

Their disciplines could be based on greed, gold, and titties.

The wise goblin monk should remember the 3 G's: Greed, Gold, goblin titties.

Meditate on this.