Hydrogen buses baby!

[Saucexorzski]

I googled gas station explosion and found an example of one that killed three people this year and injured four.

Meanwhile, the hydrogen explosion injured two people... by setting off the airbags in the cars they were in.

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They’re not making blimps, they’re making cars.

Also, was your supposition that the Hindenburg was using hydrogen as fuel?

...or that zeppelins were in any way superior to the airplanes that would have inevitably replaced them?

Did you know that airplanes are also fueled by and contain explosive substances?

You can get as riled up about this as you want but hydrogen fuel is looked at strictly because it goes boom more often. If you are so tied up in this, if this is what you want to really push as an alternative to fossil than thats one hurdle you will need to jump. If it can be done safely and cheaper than current tech then it will be done, but it's going to get a shitton of back lash because of humanites previous attempts at mastering hydrogen.

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

Problem 1 : as already hinted, H2 is pretty much one of the most volatile and reactive thing ever, the tiny tiny super light molecules means big, heavy tanks, of which the sealing is a challenge, and which will ignite upon contact with the air's O2.

Problem 2 : H2 is overwhelmingly produced trough reforming of CH4 (methane, commonly referred to as natural gas). So effectively you consume a given quantity of natural gas energy to obtain a smaller quantity of hydrogen energy : this is a waste.

Problem 3 : H2 can be produced trough water cracking, using electricity which could be from renewable. That is one path of renewable energy storage that has been researched, but given the complexity of H2 storage, some of the most promising power-to-gas project use methane or heavier hydrocarbon as end products.

In short : converting petrol engines to compressed natural gas is much more efficient, and works (CNG buses and cars have been shown to work just fine for decades now), without requiring massive amounts of lithium/cobalt/REE for batteries or noble metals like platinum for fuel cells. Plus you can even use biogas (methane CH4 too) obtained from the processing of organic wastes (sewage, manure, plants). And you don't get the risks of batteries igniting (metal fires are vicious), or hydrogen explosions.

[Flarelaine]

its called the hindenburg, was a blimp, its destruction was part of the nail in the coffin of commercial blimps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindenburg_disaster

Try reading the question more carefully. I asked about fuel cell vehicles.

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In short : converting petrol engines to compressed natural gas is much more efficient, and works (CNG buses and cars have been shown to work just fine for decades now), without requiring massive amounts of lithium/cobalt/REE for batteries or noble metals like platinum for fuel cells. Plus you can even use biogas (methane CH4 too) obtained from the processing of organic wastes (sewage, manure, plants). And you don't get the risks of batteries igniting (metal fires are vicious), or hydrogen explosions.

Any way you brand it, it is still burning carbon and increasing CO2 levels.

[Saucexorzski]

Try reading the question more carefully. I asked about fuel cell vehicles..

yeah i've explained it fine. We get it you don't like hydrocarbon fuel source and this seems like it could save the world. If you can make it work go for it.

[Saucexorzski]

This is a cng fueled bus.

the best part is when the crab dances not when the bus explodes.

[Ghostpanther]

This is a cng fueled bus.

Yeah. Forget the concept until it is proven to be as safe as gasoline and until then, more emphasis should be put on diesel use. Much better fuel economy and safer than gasoline. The diesel engine will also last longer.

I have a 1959 Ford Tractor which has a 3 cylinder diesel engine and it has never had a major overall and it still runs really well. It's fuel usage is far less than it would be if it was a gas engine. Almost impossible to stall.

[Poopymonster]

There are an estimated 5000 gas station fires per year in the US alone.

Gasoline isn’t exactly made of sunshine and rainbows, you know.

It's made of Freedom too!

[Vash The Stampede]

Hydrogen is a really crap version of lithium ion batteries, when it comes to fuel cell vehicles. Or if used in gas engines then a really crap version of natural gas. There's two ways we get Hydrogen, either from electrolysis or from Steam reforming. If we use electricity to make Hydrogen then we're wasting a lot of electricity, due to the laws of thermodynamics you will always get less energy when you convert it. If we're using Steam reforming then not only are we getting less energy than natural gas, but we still create pollution in the process since the byproduct is CO2. Though you could make the arguement that Hydrogen weighs less than a battery, which only losses 1% energy when charging, but so far the Toyota Mirai is heavier than the Tesla Model 3. Probably because the Mirai still uses a battery, just not as big as the Tesla's. All fuel cell vehicles still need a sizable battery since fuel cell technology can't be throttled to adjust speed. The fuel cell turns on to charge the battery then turns off when the battery is charged sufficiently. It's basically a hybrid but instead uses a more volatile and expensive fuel.

Also if you've ever worked on a car you should know if it can fail, it will fail. These Hydrogen fuel cells need to be sealed so tightly because the hydrogen fuel needs to be compressed, and what exactly is holding that pressure together in the vehicle? Rubber o-rings that eventually fail because they get stiff and rot? Steal lines that will probably rust and bust open, leaking out the very ignitable hydrogen? We're never going to make this safe, no matter what we do.

The only reason we're talking about Hydrogen is because the fossil fuel industry would like to believe that it can still sell you fuel, even if it means burning fossil fuel to generate the electricity for electrolysis. Diesel and gasoline will never go away entirely, but the future for transportation is electric... from a battery.

[Thekri]

Any way you brand it, it is still burning carbon and increasing CO2 levels.

Sort of. Kind of. Not really.

You see carbon doesn't burn, that is the whole problem, it gets trapped in compounds like natural hydrocarbons which removes it from circulation, and when you burn those hydrocarbons, it gets freed to go back into the atmosphere.

Hydrogen is the other part of the "Hydrocarbon" and it is the part that burns. So gasoline cars already run on burning Hydrogen and releasing the carbon. A Hydrogen powered car will use the exact same process, except the Hydrogen gets separated beforehand, providing the vehicle with only the part that burns. This means the car itself can burn clean, but all that carbon still has to go somewhere when the Hydrogen was separated in a refinery. Hydrogen is almost exclusively refined from methane, which can be pressurized and separated into Hydrogen and Carbon Dioxide (And some trace stuff). So the Hydrogen is clean, but you are left with the exact same problem as what to do with the carbon dioxide.

So Hydrogen powered are only "Clean" if the refinery that makes it has good carbon capture technology. This is easier then capturing the carbon released by individual cars... BUT that implies the manufacturer cares. A big problem with scaling this is that western companies that attempt to do it the clean way can get seriously undercut by companies that have no issues with dumping the carbon.

[Flarelaine]

Sort of. Kind of. Not really.

You see carbon doesn't burn, that is the whole problem, it gets trapped in compounds like natural hydrocarbons which removes it from circulation, and when you burn those hydrocarbons, it gets freed to go back into the atmosphere.

Hydrogen is the other part of the "Hydrocarbon" and it is the part that burns. So gasoline cars already run on burning Hydrogen and releasing the carbon. A Hydrogen powered car will use the exact same process, except the Hydrogen gets separated beforehand, providing the vehicle with only the part that burns. This means the car itself can burn clean, but all that carbon still has to go somewhere when the Hydrogen was separated in a refinery. Hydrogen is almost exclusively refined from methane, which can be pressurized and separated into Hydrogen and Carbon Dioxide (And some trace stuff). So the Hydrogen is clean, but you are left with the exact same problem as what to do with the carbon dioxide.

So Hydrogen powered are only "Clean" if the refinery that makes it has good carbon capture technology. This is easier then capturing the carbon released by individual cars... BUT that implies the manufacturer cares. A big problem with scaling this is that western companies that attempt to do it the clean way can get seriously undercut by companies that have no issues with dumping the carbon.

I think these are two different, if not entirely separate, issues. My comment was about "alternative" fuels to burn. Hydrogen for the fuel cells does in fact have those problems you listed, but I see these as problems to be worked out as they are part of the logistics of fuel cells and not inherent to the core functionality. For one, hydrogen can be readily separated from seawater and if this is powered by, say, wind turbines, which are at their most reliable at the coast, than that hydrogen will be truly (and not just locally) emission-free. The problem is with transporting that hydrogen then. Altogether, I know hydrogen is not the most viable of technologies right now - battery-based vehicles are already coming into their own - but I am glad some major companies still keep working on fuel cells. I like the thought of having an alternative technology worked on. And fuel cells do not have to run on hydrogen, either, it's just the most obvious fuel and one that had the most research already.

[Sakki]

We use trolley bus. Old tech, working well.

You use electricity directly to move the vehicle instead of just creating fuel, you dont have to worry about blowing up, and unlike hydrogen it doesnt have any NOx emissions, which is often forgotten when speaking of hydrogen.

[freezion]

Hydrogen in general is a inefficient method of energy storage, compared to just shoving the electricity in a battery car.
hydrogen vehicles is literally just a combustion-electric hybrid. the only advantage over a pure electric car is that there's no downtime when refueling.
But quick-charge technology is getting better, and new electric cars can charge from 0-80/90% in 20 minutes.


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Yeah. Forget the concept until it is proven to be as safe as gasoline and until then, more emphasis should be put on diesel use. Much better fuel economy and safer than gasoline. The diesel engine will also last longer.

I have a 1959 Ford Tractor which has a 3 cylinder diesel engine and it has never had a major overall and it still runs really well. It's fuel usage is far less than it would be if it was a gas engine. Almost impossible to stall.

Main issue with diesel engines though, is the reduced lifetime when the driving only consists of short rides. the catalytic converter needs to be heated properly as well if particle emissions filtration needs to be optimal.

But in general, diesel is the way to go, unless you only do short rides (like living in big cities).
New diesel engines (at least in the EU) have lower emissions (both co2 and NOx) than gasoline because it's under constant pressure from the EU to be optimized.
Fuel economy is better, smoother torque curve (and more torque in general from smaller engines).

[Kaleredar]

You can get as riled up about this as you want but hydrogen fuel is looked at strictly because it goes boom more often.

Again, do you have statistics to back that up? Because you haven't cited any.

If you are so tied up in this, if this is what you want to really push as an alternative to fossil than thats one hurdle you will need to jump. If it can be done safely and cheaper than current tech then it will be done, but it's going to get a shitton of back lash because of humanites previous attempts at mastering hydrogen.

to make things float?

Again, I'm fairly certain there have been more airplane disasters than there ever were hydrogen blimp disasters.

[Jonnusthegreat]

Isn't H the literal most abundant element in the universe?

We should probably start exploiting it.

[Shadowferal]

https://interestingengineering.com/h...toyota-hyundai

After a massive explosion at a hydrogen fueling station in Norway, Toyota and Hyundai have halted all sales of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, InsideEVs is reporting. The Uno-X station in Sandvika, Norway suffered a massive explosion of one of its hydrogen tanks, shutting down a major intersection and forcing the city's fire department to establish a safety zone of 500 meters around the station.

So safe they're halting the sales, lol.

hmm...this was just a few months ago...

On a curious not, I know a lot of trucks where I am use natural gas...(mostly methane)

[Muajin76]

Problem 1 : as already hinted, H2 is pretty much one of the most volatile and reactive thing ever, the tiny tiny super light molecules means big, heavy tanks, of which the sealing is a challenge, and which will ignite upon contact with the air's O2.

Problem 2 : H2 is overwhelmingly produced trough reforming of CH4 (methane, commonly referred to as natural gas). So effectively you consume a given quantity of natural gas energy to obtain a smaller quantity of hydrogen energy : this is a waste.

Problem 3 : H2 can be produced trough water cracking, using electricity which could be from renewable. That is one path of renewable energy storage that has been researched, but given the complexity of H2 storage, some of the most promising power-to-gas project use methane or heavier hydrocarbon as end products.

In short : converting petrol engines to compressed natural gas is much more efficient, and works (CNG buses and cars have been shown to work just fine for decades now), without requiring massive amounts of lithium/cobalt/REE for batteries or noble metals like platinum for fuel cells. Plus you can even use biogas (methane CH4 too) obtained from the processing of organic wastes (sewage, manure, plants). And you don't get the risks of batteries igniting (metal fires are vicious), or hydrogen explosions.

Oh boy. That was a short yet very interesting read!

[Masark]

Isn't H the literal most abundant element in the universe?

Technically, but free hydrogen (hydrogen that isn't part of some compound, like water) is quite rare on Earth, so you need to expend a considerable amount of energy splitting it apart from something in order to make it useful as a means of energy storage.

[Wezmon]

Isn't H the literal most abundant element in the universe?

We should probably start exploiting it.

Yes but none of it is on earth ;p

As a free element it (pretty much) does just not exist naturally on earth, so has to be seperated from a compound (the obvious means being electrolysis from water). As others have posted this isn't particularly efficient compared to batteries. Now it can be argued this could be improved, but I cant personally see it happening... batteries are just so much more convenient (no need for specialist tanks, transferal systems, tankers etc), safer (they can explode but obviously nothing compared to a tank full of hydrogen), easier to charge (from home rather than at a gas station) and have so much tech already behind them. They will improve faster than the hydrogen tech and the gap just widens.

[Ghostpanther]

hmm...this was just a few months ago...

On a curious not, I know a lot of trucks where I am use natural gas...(mostly methane)

Same here. Because it is cheaper than gasoline. Natural gas has also been used for generations and has proven to be relatively safe for consumer use. Explosions of course have happened. But for the amount of people who use it, they represent a extremely small chance.

[noidentity]

Well if my experience in Space Engineers means anything, as long as you keep a projection overlayed over your creation the explosions can be easily repaired, especially if you're using nanobots.