Why exactly are people so anti-LFR?

[Fred Skinner]

The game must have some kind of integrity...always.

What kind of integrity is perserved, if only organized group players may have ongoing character progression?

[kaminaris]

Prove it.

Prove that getting rid of the middle tiers of content helped the game by making it cater to extreme ends of the player base only. We have the proof that bfa didn't work and given classics explosive launch it acts as pretty stark rebuttal...

You keep talking about all the people it kept but were exactly are they.

You have some serious cases of delusional. BfA did work, classic exploded and now it's getting into abyss.

No content will last forever, making progression will keep players away from wow because they won't be bothered to hit all that stuff others already went thru.
The only way game can last is to make new content faster. Thats it, there is not ifs no buts, nothing else can get more players into it.

[Big Thanks]

What kind of integrity is perserved, if only organized group players may have ongoing character progression?

But what is your solution? Giving mythic quality gear in easy content?
There is already PvP scaling to prevent people from being in a disadvantage.

Maybe a cosmetic pursuit would be ideal for "progression" to casuals...but handing them gear would ruin the integrity of the game i think.

[Fred Skinner]

But what is your solution? Giving mythic quality gear in easy content?

I would give the same level of gear for either skill or effort. Killing a raid boss would reward you as good gear as two weeks of everyday world questing.

There is already PvP scaling to prevent people from being in a disadvantage.

What does this have to do with PVP scaling?

Maybe a cosmetic pursuit would be ideal for "progression" to casuals...but handing them gear would ruin the integrity of the game i think.

Thats elitist bullshit. Actually, every player wants character progression. No matter if he plays raids, world quests, dungeons or battlegrounds or arena, either rated or none rated.

A solution to make raiding gear feel special would be horizontal progression. Means, gear that only works in raids. And gear that only works in questing. And gear that only works in battlegrounds. Specific gear for a progression path.

While i do not think you could convince blizzard to do that, as they invented vertical progression to make gearing more easy.

While they want you to play every piece of the cake, and not focus on one only, you may use gear from whatever source for whatever gameplay. To a degree, that is, if its about sencondary stats, and you are min maxing, you have a harder life. But how many do that?

I believe blizzard should try horizontal progression. And allow players to play what they like. Without being forced to quest, raid, do pvp or dungeons.

Reputation would be available from every path, to a cap. Tabards were once used for this. They should return. As an UI, and probably not as items. And not just for dungeons, but for everything you play.

[Hittion]

You have some serious cases of delusional. BfA did work, classic exploded and now it's getting into abyss.

No content will last forever, making progression will keep players away from wow because they won't be bothered to hit all that stuff others already went thru.
The only way game can last is to make new content faster. Thats it, there is not ifs no buts, nothing else can get more players into it.

Classic has both surpassed bfas launch and given the number of queues is sustaining longer then it... what hasn't worked for half a decade isn't working now.

[kaminaris]

Classic has both surpassed bfas launch and given the number of queues is sustaining longer then it... what hasn't worked for half a decade isn't working now.

Classic is nowhere near the amount of players on retails, not even remotely close.

[Hittion]

Classic is nowhere near the amount of players on retails, not even remotely close.

How do you possibly figure? During prime time ever server but three have a queue of over a hour. There are live server that struggle to find full raid groups.

There are only half a dozen or so healthy live servers left. The mega raid realms that hold on.

[StovnZJ]

How do you possibly figure? During prime time ever server but three have a queue of over a hour. There are live server that struggle to find full raid groups.

There are only half a dozen or so healthy live servers left. The mega raid realms that hold on.

I cant wait till we can actually see the numbers.

[Big Thanks]

I would give the same level of gear for either skill or effort. Killing a raid boss would reward you as good gear as two weeks of everyday world questing.



What does this have to do with PVP scaling?



Thats elitist bullshit. Actually, every player wants character progression. No matter if he plays raids, world quests, dungeons or battlegrounds or arena, either rated or none rated.

A solution to make raiding gear feel special would be horizontal progression. Means, gear that only works in raids. And gear that only works in questing. And gear that only works in battlegrounds. Specific gear for a progression path.

While i do not think you could convince blizzard to do that, as they invented vertical progression to make gearing more easy.

While they want you to play every piece of the cake, and not focus on one only, you may use gear from whatever source for whatever gameplay. To a degree, that is, if its about sencondary stats, and you are min maxing, you have a harder life. But how many do that?

I believe blizzard should try horizontal progression. And allow players to play what they like. Without being forced to quest, raid, do pvp or dungeons.

Reputation would be available from every path, to a cap. Tabards were once used for this. They should return. As an UI, and probably not as items. And not just for dungeons, but for everything you play.

I dont know if your solution is an amazing gold mine.

Because i dont know if casuals would be extremely happy seeing their gear only powerful in "world content" unless, ofcourse, blizzard made some amazing world content to support this.

[Hittion]

I cant wait till we can actually see the numbers.

I don't think we ever will.

[TheRevenantHero]

Prove it.

Prove that getting rid of the middle tiers of content helped the game by making it cater to extreme ends of the player base only. We have the proof that bfa didn't work and given classics explosive launch it acts as pretty stark rebuttal...

You keep talking about all the people it kept but were exactly are they.

Classic had an explosive launch because it was the new big thing. It's already having a drop-off.

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How do you possibly figure? During prime time ever server but three have a queue of over a hour. There are live server that struggle to find full raid groups.

There are only half a dozen or so healthy live servers left. The mega raid realms that hold on.

I play a popular streaming pvp server. During peak hours, I never have longer than a 10 minute queue. So....you're full of it by claiming there are still queues longer than an hour.

And Modern servers are just built to take more people in them. And right now, off peak hours, every server I play on has the "full" status. Just because there's no queue to log on doesn't mean that Modern is dead. I get that you want to uplift Classic to look like God's gift to gaming but the fact of the matter is....it just isn't.

[Hittion]

Classic had an explosive launch because it was the new big thing. It's already having a drop-off.

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I play a popular streaming pvp server. During peak hours, I never have longer than a 10 minute queue. So....you're full of it by claiming there are still queues longer than an hour.

And Modern servers are just built to take more people in them. And right now, off peak hours, every server I play on has the "full" status. Just because there's no queue to log on doesn't mean that Modern is dead. I get that you want to uplift Classic to look like God's gift to gaming but the fact of the matter is....it just isn't.

What server and what is peak hours for you.

Modern servers are also not built to take my classic is the one with a raised population cap.

People keep taling about it being new but bfa did not have a launch as successful...

[TheRevenantHero]

What server and what is peak hours for you.

Modern servers are also not built to take my classic is the one with a raised population cap.

People keep taling about it being new but bfa did not have a launch as successful...

Stalagg at like 5:30-6 pm EST. And BfA 100% DID have a launch this successful. It was fucking huge on Twitch for just as long as Classic has been. which is apparently the metric people use for popularity.

[Fred Skinner]

Because i dont know if casuals would be extremely happy seeing their gear only powerful in "world content" unless, ofcourse, blizzard made some amazing world content to support this.

I think they would have no problem. The casual gamer community is rather silent, and just quits if they do not like the game.

The better question is if raiders would be fine not being powerful outside of raids. As raiders are the most problematic and vocal audience.

[rrayy]

Prove it.

Prove that getting rid of the middle tiers of content helped the game by making it cater to extreme ends of the player base only. We have the proof that bfa didn't work and given classics explosive launch it acts as pretty stark rebuttal...

You keep talking about all the people it kept but were exactly are they.

You mean like Wildstar? It catered exclusively to the hardcore and it died quickly.

ABFA is profitable and every expansion has proven to work because the game is still here. It is in no way a failure. That is you trying to masquerade yoru opinion as fact. In reality, it is still here because it evolved. As for "Classic's explosive launch"? Do you know what nostalgia is? Because Classic is heavily and primarily fueled by that. So, LOL no, classic is not a rebuttal.



There is ZERO proof that catering solely to hardocres would have lasted as long. There is proof that retail would because it already has.

[TheRevenantHero]

You mean like Wildstar? It catered exclusively to the hardcore and it died quickly.

ABFA is profitable and every expansion has proven to work because the game is still here. It is in no way a failure. That is you trying to masquerade yoru opinion as fact. In reality, it is still here because it evolved. As for "Classic's explosive launch"? Do you know what nostalgia is? Because Classic is heavily and primarily fueled by that. So, LOL no, classic is not a rebuttal.



There is ZERO proof that catering solely to hardocres would have lasted as long. There is proof that retail would because it already has.

Pretty much this. Every MMO that has catered to hardcore players either died eventually or had to shift the difficulty to be more accessible.

[rrayy]

And Modern servers are just built to take more people in them. And right now, off peak hours, every server I play on has the "full" status. Just because there's no queue to log on doesn't mean that Modern is dead. I get that you want to uplift Classic to look like God's gift to gaming but the fact of the matter is....it just isn't.

Kind of impossible for me to say BFA is dead when every time I log in, I see tons of players. People really are over exaggerating Classic right now.

[Hittion]

Stalagg at like 5:30-6 pm EST. And BfA 100% DID have a launch this successful. It was fucking huge on Twitch for just as long as Classic has been. which is apparently the metric people use for popularity.

That isn't peek times add 2 hours then try and no bfa did not.

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Kind of impossible for me to say BFA is dead when every time I log in, I see tons of players. People really are over exaggerating Classic right now.

How many different realms?

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You mean like Wildstar? It catered exclusively to the hardcore and it died quickly.

ABFA is profitable and every expansion has proven to work because the game is still here. It is in no way a failure. That is you trying to masquerade yoru opinion as fact. In reality, it is still here because it evolved. As for "Classic's explosive launch"? Do you know what nostalgia is? Because Classic is heavily and primarily fueled by that. So, LOL no, classic is not a rebuttal.



There is ZERO proof that catering solely to hardocres would have lasted as long. There is proof that retail would because it already has.

Wildstar caters to the same players bfa does.. it was a game designed around grinding..

I would argue bfa only caters to hardcores. The amount of time you spend just grinding currencies is absurd.

[Wingspan]

I dont know if your solution is an amazing gold mine.

Because i dont know if casuals would be extremely happy seeing their gear only powerful in "world content" unless, ofcourse, blizzard made some amazing world content to support this.

On a similar note to what he had mentioned, I have always thought that Bliz should just bite the bullet and make 3 distinct gear sets... one for instanced PvE, one for instanced PvP, and one for world zones. This SHOULD almost eliminate gear envy, which is the root of all evil in game design.

For instance, World Zone gear would involve quest chains and rep grinds and would give massive bonuses in that element, however it would just be baseline (starter) gear in any battleground, dungeon or raid. They could then toss in massively powerful world zone bosses to be beaten by those in top-notch world gear, but the same bosses will generally trash those people in pure mythic or pvp gear (because their gear will be like starter gear in the world zones).

Basically, just let everyone excel at what they want to and then no one in a raid should ever be weeping because some perceived “scrub” is wearing their awesome raid gear.

[Relapses]

This SHOULD almost eliminate gear envy, which is the root of all evil in game design.

Uh, that's a pretty bold statement to make without any substantiating proof. I'd argue it's the power of gear that's the root of all evil in game design and if you think that Blizzard would somehow be able to balance three entirely self-contained versions of gear without any negative overlap I have some oceanfront property in Arizona that you may be interested in.