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  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    That is completely irrational ... do you really want to kill raids ?
    Blizzard would never be able to justify the effort that goes into raids for under 200,000 people.
    In the end this is all that matters. Effort put in by Blizz needs as much return as possible LFR makes it so you can have Mythic or else it wouldn't worth the effort.
    "Countless lives continuously lost because human tribalism will never cease.

    We the voting public throughout the world are a bunch of uninformed collective idiots with no regard for the actions of the people we elevate to power. And those people we elevate are akin to the monsters we tell our children stories about." Tommo

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    Someone doing Normal or easier difficulties doesn't, or rather shouldn't, diminish your motivation to do higher difficulties. If it does, you are probably not as hardcore as you might think.
    My guild does heroic. Not enough people are motivated to do mythic. If mythic was the only difficulty, we would absolutely be doing mythic.

  3. #403
    I like how op is complaining about doing a boss 3 times is boring when you typically gotta do more runs than that for gear.

    And the damn thats cool moment comes from being able to show off better gear and mounts or running lesser content and showing off your insane heals/dps/tanking.


    Do you really think being forced to do the same two mythic dungeons constantly is better for a raider than to have different difficulties so you can do what ever one you want?


    If it was really about "winning the story" like the op implied then there would be no need for item level increases during the expansion all raids would have the same item lvl.

  4. #404
    Quote Originally Posted by Akibaboy View Post
    Nowhere were my posts about gearing "the game toward mythic raiders".
    I'm against combining the 4 existing difficulties down into one scaling difficulty, because it'd effectively cut the relevant amount of content for each group by 75%. The severely casual lose access to the later 75% of the raid, and the Mythic raiders lose engaging content for the first 75%... and everyone in between gets a lukewarm mix of stupidly easy to unenjoyably difficult (or can't even attempt the fight because they don't have 25 people)... with maybe a good fight or two in the middle.

    Nowhere in my post did I mention "disabled children" suffering. I brought up examples of real people I know who enjoy the fact that the game has a complete mode that applies to their skill and engagement level. It just seems like you're keen to try and create a problem where one really isn't there, considering that not only Blizzard are happy with a wide range of players experiencing their full game... but basically every other major MMO and online game now that offers ranges of Normal to "Heroic", "Hard", "Extreme" separate versions of the exact same content. I suppose they're all comically triggered too, and not just cognizant that providing different experiences for different playstyles is of benefit to the bottom line and continued success of their games.
    You literally quoted me saying we shouldn’t gear the game toward mythic raiders and gave me a sob story about how I’m ruining the lives of children and the disabled. Are you going to make me go back and screenshot it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    Are you actually aware that raiding was a total niche activity until they added the lower raid difficulties? Catering to the casuals is the only thing keeping WoW alive after 15 years. They appealed to nostalgia with Cata and it was wildly successful until it wasn't, they appealed to nostalgia with WoD and it was wildly successful at launch and then the product was shit, they're appealing to nostalgia with WoW classic and guess what? It's super successful, but even Blizzard is aware that interest is going to fall off hard and fast. If they did retail WoW your way the game would just die. The casuals keep it afloat. Those of us that raid mythic are an extreme minority.
    The low tier raids in BC and LK both had plenty of attendance. In fact, if you count the dungeons that were really 10 man raids in vanilla, people did those plenty as well.

    The problem of people not having access to raids was never about difficulty levels. It was about a lack of substantive catch up mechanics for later tiers, and the difficulty of organizing groups. The scaling group size tech actually mitigates the latter problem substantially, but we didn’t get that tech in place until long after difficulty levels were introduced.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoSuMe View Post
    In the end this is all that matters. Effort put in by Blizz needs as much return as possible LFR makes it so you can have Mythic or else it wouldn't worth the effort.

    This assumes that LFR is substantively making the game more enjoyable for the people running it, and I don’t see any evidence that it is. It is a very short, very toxic piece of content.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    That's just not realistic. People are going to run LFR, especially if there is a chance for any kind of upgrade, and even if you plan to run a higher difficulty it's a good idea to see the fight in LFR first. For a lot of people, running LFR is very deflating to the sense of scope and epicness of higher difficulties. It's like watching a movie on your phone before seeing it in the theater. Is it a different experience? Sure. Is it going to suck some of the fun out of it? Hell yeah.
    But... Why? It's not like LFR comes out first, it only comes out later. If people are interested, they can start learning the raid in Normal and getting whatever gear they need. There's really no reason to do LFR if you don't want to. There are easier ways of catching up on gear and it's not like Normal is particularly difficult. It really just needs a pre-made group.

    If you want to do LFR that's cool, but then you're complaining about wanting to do something optional and not liking it when the whole thing is skipable.

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by Akibaboy View Post
    Nowhere were my posts about gearing "the game toward mythic raiders".
    I'm against combining the 4 existing difficulties down into one scaling difficulty, because it'd effectively cut the relevant amount of content for each group by 75%. The severely casual lose access to the later 75% of the raid, and the Mythic raiders lose engaging content for the first 75%... and everyone in between gets a lukewarm mix of stupidly easy to unenjoyably difficult (or can't even attempt the fight because they don't have 25 people)... with maybe a good fight or two in the middle.

    Nowhere in my post did I mention "disabled children" suffering. I brought up examples of real people I know who enjoy the fact that the game has a complete mode that applies to their skill and engagement level. It just seems like you're keen to try and create a problem where one really isn't there, considering that not only Blizzard are happy with a wide range of players experiencing their full game... but basically every other major MMO and online game now that offers ranges of Normal to "Heroic", "Hard", "Extreme" separate versions of the exact same content. I suppose they're all comically triggered too, and not just cognizant that providing different experiences for different playstyles is of benefit to the bottom line and continued success of their games.
    The fact that other games copy poor design decisions doesn’t make them good design decisions. QuickTime events are also poor game design no matter how many games do them. Checklist collecting is also poor game design no matter how many games do them.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by oland138 View Post
    My guild does heroic. Not enough people are motivated to do mythic. If mythic was the only difficulty, we would absolutely be doing mythic.
    Sounds like you need a different guild, as your motivation and plans don't seem to allign with the guild's and you seem to be starting to resent that.

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    But... Why? It's not like LFR comes out first, it only comes out later. If people are interested, they can start learning the raid in Normal and getting whatever gear they need. There's really no reason to do LFR if you don't want to. There are easier ways of catching up on gear and it's not like Normal is particularly difficult. It really just needs a pre-made group.

    If you want to do LFR that's cool, but then you're complaining about wanting to do something optional and not liking it when the whole thing is skipable.

    The only people skipping LFR are people actively raiding in higher difficulties whose gear from the previous tier makes it completely pointless. Since we are talking about getting people raiding, appealing to those already doing it to that extent is meaningless.

    If you don’t think faceroll mode cheapens completing higher difficulties, you just don’t live in the real world. You can argue it’s a price worth paying, that’s at least a coherent point, but the idea that it has no impact is deranged.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    Sounds like you need a different guild, as your motivation and plans don't seem to allign with the guild's and you seem to be starting to resent that.

    I have no motivation to do higher difficulties because a substantial part of the enjoyment is gone through completion of lower difficulties.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I have no motivation to do higher difficulties because a substantial part of the enjoyment is gone through completion of lower difficulties.
    Then you are getting your money's worth out of WoW. Glad to hear it.

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    Then you are getting your money's worth out of WoW. Glad to hear it.
    Not really because the lower difficulty completion feels empty too. If there was one tier, I’d feel a substantial sense of accomplishment and enjoyment even if I only completed half of it.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  11. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    Sounds like you need a different guild, as your motivation and plans don't seem to allign with the guild's and you seem to be starting to resent that.
    No, I resent the design of the game. I want the easiest version of a raid to also be the hardest. And I want each raid to be a stepping stone to the next.

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    The only people skipping LFR are people actively raiding in higher difficulties whose gear from the previous tier makes it completely pointless. Since we are talking about getting people raiding, appealing to those already doing it to that extent is meaningless.

    If you don’t think faceroll mode cheapens completing higher difficulties, you just don’t live in the real world. You can argue it’s a price worth paying, that’s at least a coherent point, but the idea that it has no impact is deranged.
    Deranged? That's a ridiculously strong way to phrase this.

    The reality is that LFR is 100% completely optional. You don't have to do it. You can gear up in dungeons and go directly to Normal. Ton s of guilds do exactly that. If it's later on in an expansion, there are tons of ways to get catch up gear. You need never step foot in LFR.

    If you don't want to do "faceroll" content then don't. It's really that simple. Just don't do it. If you find it cheapens the experience of running higher difficulties that's 100% fine. Because options exist. People who want to do the faceroll content and are cool with it can do it. Those that feel it cheapens the harder content just don't.

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Skinner View Post
    Oh, so you want to limit quest players to old content? And have all new content for organized raiding crowd?



    And yet you want to pretend that a MMORPG should only be about premade group content.
    80% of 8.2 alone is NOT for organized raiding crowds. Are you actually playing the mthafckin game you're talking about?

    MMORPG END-GAME is premade group content. This is not my invention: look at literally every single one. From the most casual to the hardcore all everybody does is premade group content. Whether it's LFG or Mythic doesnt matter.
    YOu might not fckin like that, but then an MMo is not for you, plain and simple.

    But tell me: what level u play at? What's your daily WoW gameplay contain? Did YOU max out every single zone down to the last quest in WoW in every expansion when it was current content? Have you even done the current zones? Tell us where you're preaching from.

    Cuz from the way I'm lookin' ur just full of nonsense.

  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by NabyBro View Post
    80% of 8.2 alone is NOT for organized raiding crowds. Are you actually playing the mthafckin game you're talking about?
    8.2 features Aszharas raid, which has unique assets, unique boss mechanics. Mechagon the dungeon is mythic only while most players do not play mythic dungeons. Mechagon the questing region is literally a large grind spot with some typical unconnected world quests. If i could take a guess, mechagon the questing region was done in a few days, while the mechagon dungeon received all love and dedication of the developers and the art team.

    The quests in Nazjatar are as bland as the other world quests in BfA, that is, if we exclude the well done puzzle quests. No matter what, even those have no ongoing story told. The game needs more Suramar and less "do something that does not matter lorewise to receive reputation for flying".

    LFR in 8.2 has massively high queue times. At least here in my realmpool. Others in this forum have comparable anecdotal evidence that LFR does open rarely outside of prime time. LFR is as bland as in 8.0. Just watered down numbers, everything else is a copy from heroic and normal difficulties with troll abilties disabled. LFR has these high queue times, because tanks and healers are rare among solo and casual players. And you still need two tanks and 5 healers per LFR raid. Beside that, LFR is not rewarding at all, just meant to "see the content", because blizzard wants people who want to play the raiding game to join raiding guilds. LFR is intentionally bad designed to lure people into Ion Hazzikostas wet dream of group setting, which is a premade group.

    The raid, Aszharas palace, received way more effort than the questing region Naszjatar. Mechagon, which is a massive dungeon (and therefore not designed for casual gamers, who prefer smalll dungeons) needs to be split into wings and be available at the dungeon finder to adress the large audience.

    Quote Originally Posted by NabyBro View Post
    MMORPG END-GAME is premade group content.
    Obviously not, or do you say world quests are premade group content? Are normal and heroic dungeons premade? No, even if you mix that up in your following sentence.

    Quote Originally Posted by NabyBro View Post
    This is not my invention: look at literally every single one. From the most casual to the hardcore all everybody does is premade group content. Whether it's LFG or Mythic doesnt matter.
    LFG is no premade group content, neither is LFR. Actually, most groups on endgame level are being built with matchmaking, and not from guilds. PVP happens mainly in random battlegrounds. Yet, none of that content is actually giving an ongoing character progression to casual gamers, so blizzard tells their bread and butter audience to world quest every day to have that, on a pace blizzard dictates and not the player may set. A casual gamer in WoW has no other choice than to love quests, while there could be a multitude of possible pathes to go.

    Blizzard did a lot of mistakes with WoW. One of them is that they see every pve content outside of raids as raid preparation content and catch up mechanic, and not as standalone endgame. While they should. While they should allow multiple optional pathes, and not just one ladder where the top is raids and nothing but raids.

    Part of this mistake is, that they want you to play every content, and not just the content you like. Players are actively forced into playing questing for weeks, while many do not like quests. People are actively forced into playing dungeons, as like for Allied races on alliance side. People are actively forced to run a mythic dungeon, if they want to see the only new dungeon content in 8.2.5. All that is part of a sick bias the wow developers have that wow should be "best played with friends", and that premade groups are the alpha and the omega of group settings in the game.

    While most people use the dungeon finder and LFR.
    Last edited by Fred Skinner; 2019-09-21 at 05:24 AM.
    Rinse and repeat. For the rewards. Send even more turtles into the water.

  15. #415
    Herald of the Titans Daffan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Yes, but if you go back to that old TBC model of raiding, you'll probably end up with similar numbers of people actually seeing the content. With the current system, the content is accessible to players. The old system meant that the overwhelming majority of players never saw the content. It isn't exactly ideal to spend copious amounts of time and money on content that only 1 in 20 players will ever experience.
    Doubtful.

    The problem back then was there was no cross-realm, no premade finder, no b.net, no flexible and so forth.

    All this exists now to ease the logistical burden that was once present in early versions of the game.
    Content drought is a combination of catchup mechanics and no new content.

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by Daffan View Post
    Doubtful.

    The problem back then was there was no cross-realm, no premade finder, no b.net, no flexible and so forth.

    All this exists now to ease the logistical burden that was once present in early versions of the game.
    Do those things help? Sure. Do they solve the participation issue? Not likely. TBC era raiding was an exclusive club, one that stemmed from overall difficulty, but also things like atunements discouraged people from participating, and also the fact that there wasn't access to catchup gear. Each release saw people fall further behind and feel that it was that much harder for them to catchup to the current content.

  17. #417
    Herald of the Titans Daffan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Do those things help? Sure. Do they solve the participation issue? Not likely. TBC era raiding was an exclusive club, one that stemmed from overall difficulty, but also things like atunements discouraged people from participating, and also the fact that there wasn't access to catchup gear. Each release saw people fall further behind and feel that it was that much harder for them to catchup to the current content.
    Catchup gear is cancer. It's actually hilarious how many people complain about content drought yet turn around and love catchup gear.
    Content drought is a combination of catchup mechanics and no new content.

  18. #418
    If you think m5 should reward the same gear as heroic raiding or that m10 should reward same as mythicraiding you have downs period

  19. #419
    Stood in the Fire Sinaa's Avatar
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    Personally I think the best way would be LFR+normal & bosses get increasingly difficult on normal as you reach the end of the raid.

  20. #420
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Do those things help? Sure. Do they solve the participation issue? Not likely. TBC era raiding was an exclusive club, one that stemmed from overall difficulty, but also things like atunements discouraged people from participating, and also the fact that there wasn't access to catchup gear. Each release saw people fall further behind and feel that it was that much harder for them to catchup to the current content.
    And it was glorious. I only got up to 1 boss in SSC and I was fine with it. That's how you make things feel real. Even going to BT now it still has an allure to it in my mind.

    Now maybe having several raids that most players don't see isn't the best way to go (a lot of people didn't get to TK, BT, Hyjal or Sunwell, that's a little much), but having a raid or two that are just out of reach for the majority has value IMO. Especially if you have all expansion to get there.
    Last edited by Dormie; 2019-09-22 at 09:00 AM.

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