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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by zealo View Post
    Why would this be a bad thing?

    PC games not having any sort of second-hand market is a fairly recent development, as in, the last ~10 years when PC games stopped being sold in the same way as physical copies for console ones.
    because they're entirely digital goods, its not like a physical copy that requires a physical product be kept in decent shape.

  2. #22
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    Great news, now how about re-sale of stuff bought within the products? Especially a lot of subscription services grill people if not make a killing monopolizing and controlling that market for themselves to further their own benefit by doubledipping. Just see wow and the stringent rules on account- and gold-trading/selling. The idea of creating your own markets to come out ahead seems to be taking priority over actually creating good products when taking a glance at the mobil market and all the f2p models filled with casino- and micro-transaction-mechanics.
    Last edited by Tiwack; 2019-09-20 at 09:12 PM.
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  3. #23
    How can it be bad ?

    Do you prefer things like this ?!?

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...s-of-Photoshop

    Do you know the fucking price of adobe suit ? And you dont "own" it ?

  4. #24
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    They're just going to pay the fine people, nothing is going to change.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilian View Post
    Subscription model is inevitability. It's sad but it is. Arguments against protecting consumer rights in terms of ownership over products are very similiar to arguments that people who are easily replaced by robots in near future shouldn't get wages they can live by because if they did, robots would replace them. It will happen, sooner rather than later.

    But as long as we can assert our rights we should. If we give in to inevitability by saying "I fear it comes sooner" might as well lay down and die.
    So you're basically wooing heading towards a shittier payment model? I am confused by your stance in this thread. Subscription access models mean less consumer freedom overall. I am not sure why you are trying to spin this as a positive change.

  6. #26
    So Valve got sued because they couldn't be arsed to actually follow the law in place where they were selling? And that law was about consumer rights? Because they'd rather gouge people as much as possible even though they really don't do much with the piles of money they have? Color me surprised. It's almost as if they did the same thing with something as basic as the ability to return games, where they were sued in both EU and, if memory serves me right, Australia. And just like back then the arguments they used in their defense are not only moronic, but try to flat out alter reality. Why this tumor upon the gaming industry has such a rabid following continues to elude me.


    Quote Originally Posted by OneWay View Post
    This is misleading. Yeah, it is great to allow to resell games - within steam. And also, re'-selling them under condition of lower price is fair too.
    How is that misleading? No one said it'd be outside Steam. Kinda obvious it'd be within it.


    Quote Originally Posted by OneWay View Post
    I am not following. I am not polishing anything. I am emphasizing that it's within platform. Don't get me started how this is in no way similar to reselling physical, unpacked and unused product.
    No one said that either.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beazy View Post
    Or pay a measly $50,000 dollar fine. . . . lol

    I think the fine was defined as 3k euros for 6 consecutive months? Valve can afford to pay that for the next 297 years and not even come close to the red. The impact it could have on Valve sales would eclipse that amount by orders of magnitude.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phookah View Post
    This. Valve literally doesn't care at all as they laugh to the bank. They just pay the fine and continue on.
    That's on national level. The moment EU itself gets the wind that a large international company tries to ignore its laws because they basically don't feel the impact of national level fines, EU will issue its own fines. And those tend to be rather more significant. And it will continue doing so until the company complies.


    Quote Originally Posted by zhero View Post
    because they're entirely digital goods, its not like a physical copy that requires a physical product be kept in decent shape.
    In both cases you're ultimately selling your licence.
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    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  7. #27
    I don't agree with this. When it comes to physical copies, there's incentive to buy a new version of the game due to the quality of the actual product you receive. Taken to a digital level, there is no difference in buying it new or used, you're receiving the same exact product. Valve can still stand to gain from this, by taking a cut of the resold game if you use their service to theoretically sell it if they do implement it. The game developer on the other hand will not receive any cut of the resold game at all, and why buy new when there's hundreds of copies that are a tad cheaper?

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Sluvs View Post
    Oh... this is bad.
    Imagine thinking that having ownership of things you buy is a bad thing.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    Imagine thinking that having ownership of things you buy is a bad thing.
    This does not happen in a vacuum. If it becomes commonplace it might hit the industry very hard and force the developers into subscriptions models, taking even more power from gamers. You need to understand the repercussions of this.

    Yes, at face value it's good. But when you consider the ramifications it's pretty bad.
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  10. #30
    But wouldn't this basically mean selling your WoW license is not only legal but legally protected? It might get more hairy since it's under the Battle.net license which is technically not a game, but the same reasoning would allow this.

  11. #31
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    And what motivation do game devs have to to make full priced games? Might as well make free to play trash filled to the brim with micro transactions to get around this ruling.

    Though I do like the idea of having actual ownership of my digital games, the market will shift in a very bad way. There's always a cost.
    Last edited by Aeula; 2019-09-20 at 10:33 PM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Sluvs View Post
    This does not happen in a vacuum. If it becomes commonplace it might hit the industry very hard and force the developers into subscriptions models, taking even more power from gamers. You need to understand the repercussions of this.

    Yes, at face value it's good. But when you consider the ramifications it's pretty bad.
    Oh my sweet dear child, there existed a time when every game you bought could be re-sold. Physical console games can still be re-sold to this day. But, but, but the poor publishers will lose money! I'm sure some ass clown at EA or other big pub would use it as an excuse to double down on MTX, and I also don't care because the market would correct itself anyways like it always does.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cracked View Post
    But wouldn't this basically mean selling your WoW license is not only legal but legally protected? It might get more hairy since it's under the Battle.net license which is technically not a game, but the same reasoning would allow this.
    Wow is a MMO so you'd be selling access if this even means anything.
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Wow is a MMO so you'd be selling access if this even means anything.
    Well, no. You bought the box and the box is your license. The license is linked to your account, so if you sell your license, you are selling access to your account.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    Oh my sweet dear child, there existed a time when every game you bought could be re-sold. Physical console games can still be re-sold to this day. But, but, but the poor publishers will lose money! I'm sure some ass clown at EA or other big pub would use it as an excuse to double down on MTX, and I also don't care because the market would correct itself anyways like it always does.
    You are extremely naive if you think the convenience of the digital marketing and the fact that the goods are virtually impossible to damage is even remotely comparable to the physical reselling market.

    Ans yes, it will correct itself. With sub based model taking over.
    I don't want solutions. I want to be mad. - PoorlyDrawnlines

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Sluvs View Post
    You are extremely naive if you think the convenience of the digital marketing and the fact that the goods are virtually impossible to damage is even remotely comparable to the physical reselling market.

    Ans yes, it will correct itself. With sub based model taking over.
    Oh yes, we have already got to insults because someone is using a typical AAA publisher scare tactic. Your condition and convenience comments are moot and already cancelled out by the fact publishers make a far larger cut off digital sales then physical without manufacturing overhead and a middle man to sell the product.

    AAA publishers are going to do what they want to do with or without this, as they have already shown over the last decade. If you don't understand their excuses are just lip service then idk what to tell you. The market corrects itself when a situation like BF2 happens and the game bombs, just like it always does when a publisher go's too far for their fan base.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluvs View Post
    This will severely damage the sales of those games in the platform, with one purchase, hundreds of people can play the game. This basically means that the developer will make way less money.
    Yikes.

    Remember, this is a license. If you sell your license to someone else, you no longer own the license so you can no longer play the game. Were Steam to adopt a re-sell model, you can sure as hell bet that the game would be deactivated from your library once you sold it. It is extremely unlikely that one license will be sold and re-sold that many times.

    Further, this is a digital marketplace that Steam would have control over. I'm not 100% clear on EU law, not being in the EU and all, but unless it states the consumer must get 100% of the profits of a resale (which seems doubtful) Steam could take a percentage of the resale and even send some over to the developer. I bet they could even do something similar to a MAP price to prevent brand new games from being resold at drastically reduced prices by users.

    Regardless, the market survived when we could resell physical games. It would definitely survive if we could resell digital games, especially when there is so much more retailer (Steam) control.

    Of course, I don't expect Steam to bend to this. It's more likely buying game licenses becomes renting game licenses with bullshit subscription fees and stuff so... /shrug

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    So Valve got sued because they couldn't be arsed to actually follow the law in place where they were selling? And that law was about consumer rights? Because they'd rather gouge people as much as possible even though they really don't do much with the piles of money they have? Color me surprised. It's almost as if they did the same thing with something as basic as the ability to return games, where they were sued in both EU and, if memory serves me right, Australia. And just like back then the arguments they used in their defense are not only moronic, but try to flat out alter reality. Why this tumor upon the gaming industry has such a rabid following continues to elude me.
    Nice Steam hating, but do humor me: which digital platforms allow reselling content? Can I resell stuff in App Store? Google Play? Microsoft Store? Playstation Store? eShop? UPlay? EGS? Battle.net? Origin? Bethesda Store? Rockstar Games Store? Where's that knight on a white horse who can save the game industry?
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by -aiko- View Post
    Yikes.

    Remember, this is a license. If you sell your license to someone else, you no longer own the license so you can no longer play the game. Were Steam to adopt a re-sell model, you can sure as hell bet that the game would be deactivated from your library once you sold it. It is extremely unlikely that one license will be sold and re-sold that many times.

    Further, this is a digital marketplace that Steam would have control over. I'm not 100% clear on EU law, not being in the EU and all, but unless it states the consumer must get 100% of the profits of a resale (which seems doubtful) Steam could take a percentage of the resale and even send some over to the developer. I bet they could even do something similar to a MAP price to prevent brand new games from being resold at drastically reduced prices by users.

    Regardless, the market survived when we could resell physical games. It would definitely survive if we could resell digital games, especially when there is so much more retailer (Steam) control.

    Of course, I don't expect Steam to bend to this. It's more likely buying game licenses becomes renting game licenses with bullshit subscription fees and stuff so... /shrug
    Yes, they would lose the game in their libraries, but when you consider that some games have 0 replay value it becomes a non-issue. And it is not hard to imagine that one license of the game to be so many times that would damage the company's revenue. And remember, I have zero incentive to buy a new game if the used license is cheaper and exactly the same.

    Even if steam controls the market, that does not mean that the money will comeback to the publisher. It does not matter if they implement some system that controls pricing, as long as it cheaper and coming form another user, the publisher most likely wont see much if any of it.

    The market survived with physical games because selling and buying them is way trickier.

    1) The game might be damaged somehow.
    2) You would have to find someone willing to buy/sell that specific game.
    3) You would have to ship it or deliver it yourself.

    In a digital marketplace, none of those are issues.

    1) A license can't be damaged.
    2) In a digital marketplace you can just type whatever you want and find someone in japan selling the game that you want. The pool is much larger.
    3) And the game would be in your PC in a matter of minutes.

    Basically a process that would take days or even a week to complete can be done in a matter of literal minutes.

    You can't really compare a digital marketplace with a physical one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    Oh yes, we have already got to insults because someone is using a typical AAA publisher scare tactic. Your condition and convenience comments are moot and already cancelled out by the fact publishers make a far larger cut off digital sales then physical without manufacturing overhead and a middle man to sell the product.

    AAA publishers are going to do what they want to do with or without this, as they have already shown over the last decade. If you don't understand their excuses are just lip service then idk what to tell you. The market corrects itself when a situation like BF2 happens and the game bombs, just like it always does when a publisher go's too far for their fan base.
    This is not AAA scare tactic, mainly because the ones that would be most affected would be indie developers. The point is not moot whatsoever (mainly because you did not adress them in any way) because the publishers would make 0 dollars of that transaction. They basically would sell way less and get way less revenue due to it.

    And yes, the market would correct itself, at our expense. We would be forced to buy the sub based system or some even worse crap.

    And again, stop comparing a digital marketplace to a physical one, they behave very differently and costumers react differently to it too.

    Indie developers would be in a really bad shape in this situation.

    You guys are analizing this in a vacuum. It looks great, but the consequences MIGHT be dire. It might end up fine, sure, it does not mean its not risky.

    We might end up seeing bonus DLC by buying from the publishers or even some more degenerate marketing behaviours.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I know this is counter-intuitive. Denying something that would give us more rights sounds completely backwards, but this might be a pandora's box situation.
    I don't want solutions. I want to be mad. - PoorlyDrawnlines

  20. #40
    Whoever happy about should mark the day they allow this option on steam as the end of the gaming industry we already know.

    1- This will obliterate indie companies and small developers, reselling their games means less revenue for them. No one sane enough will dump money to develop and polish a game to find out it is not making a profit because gamers are reselling their keys.

    2- This will drive AAA companies from releasing their games on Steam to avoid this shit.

    3- Even if AAA games will be still on Steam they will develop an idea to make even single-player title service to gain as much money they can get from you, the moment you resell your copy it will be barebone version of the game that new owner have to pay for everything from start.

    4- Steam sales and especially summer sales will be out, no gaming company nor Steam will offer sales since they know there is a market for reselling copies for 1$ a 60$ game.

    5- this will promote steam accounts hacking, accounts will be more likely getting targeted for hacking and all game libraries are getting sold for easy money and Steam have to deal with an idiot who can't protect his account to get his library back and the new owners who will be stripped from bought games and refunded...too much hassle tbh.

    6- if you ever think gaming companies will stand still doing nothing, you are naive. They will develop aggressive expensive models they even might charge more than 60$ a game to compensate.

    7- kiss the records of sold copies the first week of AAA game goodbye, it will be always around the first million idiots who bought it the first week 60$ and sold it second week for 1$.

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