Mists of Pandaria class design/gameplay philosophy

[Shakana]

you'd want it to, but it isn't going anywhere since celestalon's admitting playing it on a tablet and the primary announcement for blizzcon last year being a phone game.
so deal with it, cause as is you're full of bullshit claiming that BFA's pruned shit-heap takes up all available bars on even the basic WoW UI without using modifier keys.

yeah, that's kinda what i was referring to, maybe if you played the game more then the forums you'd know what caused the wrath item scaling to go off the rails, it was the casualization of normal mode and splitting all raid difficulty into heroic to appeal more to scrubs.

in your opinion, meanwhile there are many in the thread, such as myself, who think you're full of shit claiming there was bloat when there wasn't
also, the """de-homogenized"""(which is another false claim as many classes are literally copies of others now right down to utility and rotations being straight-ripped from other classes) dumbed-down gameplay intended by the developers to lower the skill-ceiling enough for lower-skilled players to be able to compete with anyone who actually gives a shit about learning their classes.

which claiming that WoD improved anything makes me laugh at you when all it did was remove abilities from classes, classes were far more diverse with shit like dark intent and symbiosis actually linking characters mechanically.

so not only is your opinion ignorant, your claims are both factually wrong in terms of gameplay and erroneous as to developer intent.
BFA is peak homogenization, and that's why everyone with a working brain hates it.

To be quite fair what annoys me the most in BfA ain't homogenization but cause it feels like you're not playing class with abilities, you playing a class with gear. Seriously, everything about gear, stats makes your damage from the gear, traits makes your damage, AP neck makes your damage, essences makes your damage, trinkets makes your damage, weapons with procs makes your damage, rotations spammy as hell because in the end of the day seems like gear is everything and item level. That for me is way worse than homogenization (and as if it wasn't enough, they even add benthic gear)

[haediff]

MoP felt like the class devs actually cared what their class did and had an understanding of what each spec was about. Not to mention the combat was much faster-paced. The GCD change that came with BFA is honestly, in my opinion, the worst thing that has happened to the game in my 10 years of playing.

[Kralljin]

i didn't think is something that bad, in fact i liked, it feels like a talent tree for your class

The result however was a huge mess for multi role classes.
Take Warrior for example, if you happen to be Prot, there was only a single tier that legitimately influenced your defensive capabilities.
And the choices were not even that good.

Other tiers only had relevant choices if you were into PvP, maybe dungeons, but the latter didn't exactly carry as much weight as it does now because dungeons were not exactly a focus of MoP outside of Challenge mode.

Sometimes, certain talents were just utterly terrible for certain specs, these talents were just dead depending on your role.

Also, even the concept of having alternate playstyles within a single spec was just dead, because none of these talents really interacted with any spec specific mechanic.

It had powerful choices, and gave the healing hybrids some return of a raid support role, but that's all about it.

[Syegfryed]

The result however was a huge mess for multi role classes.

yeah its was not perfect,but i think i worked ok, it could be improved

Take Warrior for example, if you happen to be Prot, there was only a single tier that legitimately influenced your defensive capabilities.
And the choices were not even that good.

taking account how even now we still have only few good choices that are mandatory, we ddn't improve in this aspect.

Also even if could not influence your defensive capabilities it could improve other things, like pvp or questing

Sometimes, certain talents were just utterly terrible for certain specs, these talents were just dead depending on your role.

same as now we have different tier based on specs and inside the tier we have terrible talents, that are not useful for your spec and could not even be useful for the other.

Also, even the concept of having alternate playstyles within a single spec was just dead, because none of these talents really interacted with any spec specific mechanic.

like i said like how they didn't interact specific in the mechanic of the spec, just with the class is enough for me.

They could do some sort of "tier 2 talents" with some of then to interact with the spec, kinda artifacts and glyph, its feels/sound better to me class talents being for your class, not focused on your spec, or even general talents that you could get across classes would be a cool design for me, like some sort of feats other games have

[Kralljin]

taking account how even now we still have only few good choices that are mandatory, we ddn't improve in this aspect.

You're mixing up cause and effect.

In MoP, some talents were just dead based on the fact that certain tiers were simply primarily desinged towards a given spec, like healing, then Blizzard shoehorned some useability into some talents in order to be halfway decent for Dps as well.
Certain talents just couldn't be salvaged, the 75 Tier for Shaman is a good example.

You have Ancestral Guidance, which is great for Ele / Enhance, then you have Conductivity, which has fringe use at best for Ele / Enhance, then you have Rushing Streams, which is an utter joke of a talent that you never took take as Ele / Enhance because Healing Stream totem is terrible w/o Resto spec.

In order to make Rushing Streams remotely attractive to Ele / Enhance, you would have to buff the talent by such a huge amount that it absolutely break the game on the Resto Shaman end.

Additionally, it's pretty safe to say that BfA has been in Maintanance mode as far as class design / balance is concerned, they release some % buffs for some specs but that's about it.
Legion for example came around with a massive talent re balance in 7.1 already and kept balancing talents throughout the expansion, 8.2 by comparison had no major talent rebalance.

Whether something is conceptually flawed or numerically is a huge difference.

Also even if could not influence your defensive capabilities it could improve other things, like pvp or questing

Tanks aren't exactly wanted in PvP.
You can play them, but the second they reach anywhere a status of viability in rated PvP, Blizzard nerfs the shit out of them.

Also, let's not forget that Mop was an expansion where raiding was the primary endgame.
Sorry but questing has been a joke since Wotlk, it has no massive relevance to the overall game.

The very reason why Blizzard moved to this talent system is because it's better for the endgame, if Blizzard seriously cared about the questing experience (regarding talents) then they would've sticked with the original because there it suits the concept of character progression far better than the MoP one.

Also, a talent system should focus on the core duty of your chosen role, not something besides that, that is the entire point of a talent system, to specialize one for a given situation.

like i said like how they didn't interact specific in the mechanic of the spec, just with the class is enough for me.

They didn't even do that because the concept of classes having an overarching mechanic is barely existant for a long time by now.
You have classes like rogues with combo points, but then it pretty hits a brick wall once you reach multi role classes.

Most of the time, they just were abilities that only have had some loose connection with the classes' fantasy itself, that's it.

[sunxsera]

Played shaman & hunter in MoP ... best time i ever had raiding. Specs were just super fun.
Don `t know what went wrong after MoP, maybe the devs stopped playing the game, but so many specs & classes got crippled.

Let `s take ele shaman from MoP: It was a super fun specc, not too OP with the lighning bolt casting on the move - it hit like a wet noodle anyway - but it was fun. I also felt like imperator palpatine on aoe fights. Durumu was a dream als ele shaman.
Then WoD hits and leveling your shaman felt like playing classic, you couldn`t pull more than 2 mobs because you didn`t do any damage.
Why do things like this happen? It took blizzard months and 2-3 buffs to make ele somewhat viable again. I never touched my shaman after that, it `s still 101.
Why is there a need to ruin perfectly fine & fun specs? I `m pretty sure a lot of people quit because their favourite class / specc got ruined for them.

Another example is survival hunter. Survival was my favourite hunter specc back then and now it `s just another boring melee with no real identity.
Main argument from players was "well, vanilla had melee hunter too!" - yea, binding all melee attacks in one macro and spamming it when they cant get out of range from mobs / players wasnt a melee specc.

Hope the next addon they will focus on class design a lot ...

[Syegfryed]

In MoP, some talents were just dead based on the fact that certain tiers were simply primarily desinged towards a given spec, like healing, then Blizzard shoehorned some useability into some talents in order to be halfway decent for Dps as well.
Certain talents just couldn't be salvaged, the 75 Tier for Shaman is a good example.

thats why i think the system was ok but could be improved, not saying is perfect, it did had flaws, but generally was good with all the classes that i played

i remember the last tier of warlocks and that was awesome in my eyes, and i think it should work more or less like that, 3 talents in a tier, they could be for every spec and each one with a different interaction, like increased aoe and casting while moving.

Whether something is conceptually flawed or numerically is a huge difference.

i think bfa is flawed conceptually, every class i pay it fells bad, and this "class fantasy" is being bad for most of then, MOP i think was numerically flawed because it had some broken things, correct me if im wrong i don't rly remember that much since i never raided back there.

Tanks aren't exactly wanted in PvP.
You can play them, but the second they reach anywhere a status of viability in rated PvP, Blizzard nerfs the shit out of them.

in arenas i guess, but i think its fine for then in battlegrounds and in wolrd pvp

Sorry but questing has been a joke since Wotlk, it has no massive relevance to the overall game.

but still part of the game, i think talents should not be so massive important to the endgame that your class should be totally dependent on that to have a meaningful dps and a acceptable arena performance.

Also, a talent system should focus on the core duty of your chosen role,

sure, i don't mind having 2 different trees for a tank and dps, but the dps tree should be the same for the 2 other specs imo.

Most of the time, they just were abilities that only have had some loose connection with the classes' fantasy itself, that's it.

can't say i dislike that very much

[Kralljin]

i think bfa is flawed conceptually, every class i pay it fells bad

That discussion is not about BfA however, nor i am going over that bridge and discuss this rather broad topic, especially in the light of the fact that i didn't even defend BfA in any post.
You're just moving the goalpost here.

but still part of the game, i think talents should not be so massive important to the endgame that your class should be totally dependent on that to have a meaningful dps and a acceptable arena performance.

And i think they should be, talents are simply a crucial aspect of an RPG and need to have an impact, if they fail to have a proper impact, you can end up with dysfunctional specs, which is especially bad for classes where the different specs have vastly different playstyle (ranged vs. melee) or an entirely different role.

Pure dps classes can get away with less impactful specializations, but other classes cannot without seriously breaking something.

sure, i don't mind having 2 different trees for a tank and dps, but the dps tree should be the same for the 2 other specs imo.

And that's not going to happen.
why?
Because then you suddenly had to vary the talent trees between classes.

Not like Druid just being the special snowflake based on their class identity being a jack of all trades, but then you suddenly had to go down make:
3 Different Pally specs.
Decide whether Shaman have 2 or 3 different specs (because Enhance and Ele aren't as similiar as Fury / Arms).
and so forth, some consistency needs to be there.

[Syegfryed]

That discussion is not about BfA however, nor i am going over that bridge and discuss this rather broad topic, especially in the light of the fact that i didn't even defend BfA in any post.
You're just moving the goalpost here.

i was trying to say MOP was not conceptually flawed, but the others for sure, they just could have handle some things better

And i think they should be, talents are simply a crucial aspect of an RPG and need to have an impact,

need to have a impact in your class, yes, but your entire spec/class be totally dependent on that single talent, and you would under-perform and would be totally bad without in a raid and pvp scenario i think its too much, there is a fine line here, if we have 3 talents all of then should be good and perform in a similar way, for your class

And that's not going to happen.
why?
Because then you suddenly had to vary the talent trees between classes.

that came out wrong, what i meant was 2 different talent tree for wariors by example, 1 for prot and 1 for arms and fury, 1 talent tree for warlocks, 3 for paladins, etc

but im not against some "general talents" for better life things/customization, like glyphs, that you could take among classes, that are mostly mechanical and cosmetic and don't rly increase dps;

[xZerocidex]

Played shaman & hunter in MoP ... best time i ever had raiding. Specs were just super fun.
Don `t know what went wrong after MoP, maybe the devs stopped playing the game, but so many specs & classes got crippled.

Let `s take ele shaman from MoP: It was a super fun specc, not too OP with the lighning bolt casting on the move - it hit like a wet noodle anyway - but it was fun. I also felt like imperator palpatine on aoe fights. Durumu was a dream als ele shaman.
Then WoD hits and leveling your shaman felt like playing classic, you couldn`t pull more than 2 mobs because you didn`t do any damage.
Why do things like this happen? It took blizzard months and 2-3 buffs to make ele somewhat viable again. I never touched my shaman after that, it `s still 101.
Why is there a need to ruin perfectly fine & fun specs? I `m pretty sure a lot of people quit because their favourite class / specc got ruined for them.

Another example is survival hunter. Survival was my favourite hunter specc back then and now it `s just another boring melee with no real identity.
Main argument from players was "well, vanilla had melee hunter too!" - yea, binding all melee attacks in one macro and spamming it when they cant get out of range from mobs / players wasnt a melee specc.

Hope the next addon they will focus on class design a lot ...

Survival Hunter tier piece bonuses during SoO was the shit.

[perkocet]

What's your issue, dude? I'm sorry your galaxy brain is so far above us mere plebians on the internet that you feel justified in being a complete dick to anybody who doesn't share your incredibly narrow viewpoint.

If you look very very closely, you'll see that the people circle jerking for MOP are the casters, because they were intensely OP all throughout MoP.

[Syegfryed]

If you look very very closely, you'll see that the people circle jerking for MOP are the casters, because they were intensely OP all throughout MoP.

i am a main warrior and circle jerk to mop anytime.

every expansion had their op classes anyway, it don't take away the credit of being a good expansion in class design compared to bfa/legion

[Malikath]

If you look very very closely, you'll see that the people circle jerking for MOP are the casters, because they were intensely OP all throughout MoP.

and the people fellating WoD are garbage.
i played every class during MoP to maintain top 50 progression, i liked arms and beta WW monk.
but cata ruined DKs irreparably and while MoP unholy was great i still miss auto-fire DCs rather then "free" ones and blood DPS was far more popular then blood tank as most were frost tanks with blood mostly for perks.
ret paladins were just a copy of monks and seals never altered abilities to maximize their output in relevant context, paladins' have hardly ever been a well made class in WoW but alot of the things that made MoP bad in some respects were hold-overs from previous expansions that have gone on to become even worse for the game, and even then MoP gave us tit-forging so no, it's not perfect but it's still better then what WoD and post have made of it where fury regens like wolverine and brick-stupid specs always perform higher.

[EskwyreX]

If you look very very closely, you'll see that the people circle jerking for MOP are the casters, because they were intensely OP all throughout MoP.

I'm circlejerking MoP and I didn't play caster. I played WW/MW Monk and Enhancement Shaman.

[Alpharius]

excuse me? was i talking to you?

yes you told me to play a cleric because of your dnd shit

[kaminaris]

You guys have really short-sighted memory...

MoP was one my favourite times in WoW, but i clearly remember all the drama and qqs (and i spent MUCH more time on forums back then).

Extreme button bloat, abundance of CC (MoP was the time where qquing about staying in 15+second chain ccs was at it's peak), overpowered PvE items in PvP...

As for skill...i played shaman, all three specs:

Elemental: PvE - CL spam wins the meter (while it looked cool, it was brainless), in PvP have 3 Flame Shocks rolling and proceed to obliterate enemies with 3 Lava Burst procs (i still have screenshots of 3shotting people)

Enhancement: macro everything into Ascendance and remove enemies in 2 seconds FROM RANGE.

Restoration: smart heals doing your job for you...

What was fun for you was probably frustrating for other players...

MoP was a beautiful expansion, with good raids and nice questing, but it did lose 4 million (!!!!) players during it's life span.

Oh wow, someone with good memory, this is unexpected here. I remember a load of other similar stuff like warlock affli being the unquestionable king in multi target situations with infinite snapshotted dots rolling around. Tanks wanting stand in shit to raise their vengeance to maximum and steamroll dps charts. Disci priest primarily healing source was dealing damage. Hunters removing you from arenas with just one button. Hunters aspect of the pack.

[TwoMana]

If you look very very closely, you'll see that the people circle jerking for MOP are the casters, because they were intensely OP all throughout MoP.

I'm on this circle jerk and I played Feral Druid

[TigTone]

Oh wow, someone with good memory, this is unexpected here. I remember a load of other similar stuff like warlock affli being the unquestionable king in multi target situations with infinite snapshotted dots rolling around. Tanks wanting stand in shit to raise their vengeance to maximum and steamroll dps charts. Disci priest primarily healing source was dealing damage. Hunters removing you from arenas with just one button. Hunters aspect of the pack.

I had forgotten how boring healing was in raids because of Absorbs priests.

[Khain]

I had forgotten how boring healing was in raids because of Absorbs priests.

I remember how stupid 25 man raids were in MoP, you had so many raid cooldowns that you could pretty much ignore most of the mechanics and just stack and heal.

[perkocet]

I'm circlejerking MoP and I didn't play caster. I played WW/MW Monk and Enhancement Shaman.

I can't tell if you quoted my post about how rose tinted the goggles are for OP caster classes and mentioned playing the two most OP melee classes as... an own? Very confusing.