[Suggestions updated] Pre-Legion/Ranged Survival

[F Rm]

The bonus of the beast within is nice, but requires you to choose talents that people may not want to pick.

After some thought. I changed my mind here.
I've re-worked the talent to be less dependent on Dire Frenzy use and to focus more on your pet empowering you when simply attacking an enemy.
Compared to the old version where it was only Dire Frenzy attacks that could do this.
The rate at of which you gain this effect/proc should still remain about the same as with the original approach. Just that now, it does not rely solely on Dire Frenzy.

What I still haven't decided is if the effects you can get from this talent should always proc both at the same time or if you sometimes should get the proc of guaranteed critical hits on instant damage attacks and sometimes it should proc the second effect where your abilities that deal periodic damage would last longer etc.

Thoughts? Should it always proc both effects so that you can choose yourself what you want to use it on or should it be able to proc them individually?

Note: Considering how Explosive Shot is designed, the talent "The Beast Within" would always affect it no matter the proc. As Explosive Shot deals both instant damage as well as periodic damage.

[Chipnuts]

While I do adore old Survival and would love to see its return, it doesn't make much logical sense, to me, to find a way to incorporate a pet into this type of spell/DoT based ranged spec when nothing about the fantasy really ties ones in. We could, at the very least, see an Animal Companion talent that, if chosen, allows you to summon a pet from your stable if you so happen to want one (at the expense of your own damage).

But, IMO, pet's strictly belong to a spec like BM--its previous iterations I too have loved. To (re)introduce something like Dire Frenzy or The Beast Within already begins to steer too far in that direction. This type of Survival should strictly be the hunter and his bow alone, manipulating his surroundings (as a naturalist would) and dealing various forms of elemental damage with his tricked-out arrows.

Just poking fun here. Imagine having a quiver like Hawkeye's, which would fix a lethal device to the arrow like a small TnT for Explosive Shot, or a splitting device for Multishot. Then, a waist pouch or bag for your smaller effects, like traps or poisons.

[F Rm]

Sorry, long reply following below

While I do adore old Survival and would love to see its return, it doesn't make much logical sense, to me, to find a way to incorporate a pet into this type of spell/DoT based ranged spec when nothing about the fantasy really ties ones in.

I'd say that this depends a lot on who you ask. Now, I do get your point of view. A spec that to it's core is about ranged attacks in the form of periodic damage effects, why add in elements of pet enhancement/involvement?

You're right, at first I did think about making this essentially the same as MM when it comes to pet involvement. Where, you can have a pet active while playing as it, but the spec would not promote the style of play in any way. Essentially, your pet would be sort of a passive DoT that's there attacking enemies, and that would be it.

In the end, I chose to make this spec to work, sort of like that. Baseline, your pet will be just like the above, a passive DoT that you don't need to focus on pretty much at all. But, I also chose to include optional talent choices(as in, choices that you don't have to pick if you don't want to), choices that to varying degree involved your pet. Now, the only talent that really affects how you play, that is about you focusing on pet control, that's the Dire Frenzy-talent.

When it comes to Dire Frenzy as a talent, yes, in the past(Legion), this was a core mechanic of the BM spec. This is no longer the case though.
My main decision to include a version of Dire Frenzy, was to allow for a change of pace compared to if you stuck with the baseline abilities that included Quick Shot. Quite a few players are very fond of the original fantasy of the Hunter class, that's essentially a ranged(weapon) class that also included pet management to varying degree.

Again, picking Dire Frenzy will ofc work when you engage in EG-content. But the main focus of it was to allow for more pet control while in the open world, doing quests or leveling up. And, as for the other talent choices that somehow involves your pet: Alpha Predator, Ferocious Inspiration, The Beast Within as well as Rapid Recuperation.
These are all essentially passive effects that you don't really have to pay much attention to, OR, they are the case of your pet buffs/empowers you in some way.
This currently, is very different from BM, as BM is mostly about you buffing your pet or summoning additional beasts, or about picking a multitude of stand-alone abilities that have no ties to anything else that you do(basic, use-when-ready abilities).

Dire Frenzy - the only talent that mechanically changes how you play, that also involves you controlling your pet.

Alpha Predator - entirely passive, it affects what you do about as much as Basic Attacks for pets does.(Bite, Claw, Smack)

Ferocious Inspiration - an extension of the previous two talents. Entirely passive. Mostly there for those that like to focus just a little on pets. In itself, this talent is only about AoE which is also not your main focus in the end-game scene.

The Beast Within - works VERY different from what that talent used to be about when specific to BM. Back then it involved Bestial Wrath so that you as well gained the bonus damage component, not just your pet.
Now, why did I choose to design it like I did? We have seen a ton of talents/passive effects that were essentially this: Your Auto Attacks have a X% chance to...

I wanted to move away from that just a little. Attaching the effect that this talent gives to one/or a few special attacks which you can sort of control yourself...If you ask me, this is much more fun than simply having a passive effect added to your auto attacks. Because, you have no real way to manually control the effect in that case. The actual effect you get from this talent, and how often it would proc, will essentially be the same(or even more frequent) as if instead, it involved your Auto Attacks. As for the name of the talent, it doesn't actually need to carry that specific name, in case that's the problem.

Rapid Recuperation - does not really have much to do with your pet and how you focus on what your pet does. This talent is purely meant to be a change of pace that involved your CD management.
Many players back when we had the ranged Survival spec, loved that it was very consistent and had little involvement of Burst-windows. This talent is meant to bring that feeling back. It's there for those that don't want to focus on optimal timing of the main CD - Rapid Fire. With this talent, I expect your Rapid Fire to come off CD about every minute to maybe every 1min 15sec(baseline, it has a 2min CD).


I guess the TL;DR of it all is: The core fantasy of the Hunter class have always been, you fight from afar with a ranged weapon and you have a pet by your side to aid you in combat. With this, we nowadays ofc have some outlying niches depending on what spec you choose. BM is now more focused on pet involvement/management. MM is essentially the true Ranger-spec where nothing you do promotes the use of pets, despite you being able to have an active pet. The current Melee-Survival is meant to have the niche of melee-combat(despite this no longer being as apparent as it was in Legion), but you still have elements of pet-management/involvement. Heck, one of the spec's core abilities is purely focused on pet damage.
So, for a 4th spec option, I wanted to stick with the core fantasy of the class and what it has always been. You are the ranged class that fight with a weapon, and you're aided by a loyal companion when engage in combat.
Again, keep in mind that anything that enhances pet involvement/management with this spec, is purely optional through talent choices.

Imagine having a quiver like Hawkeye's, which would fix a lethal device to the arrow like a small TnT for Explosive Shot, or a splitting device for Multishot. Then, a waist pouch or bag for your smaller effects, like traps or poisons.

I'm sure we could come up with ways to design quivers to show a Warcraft-inspired design similar to that. Although, I doubt they would actually do something like this as it would take a lot of time to create/implement, but the actual visual(mainly the one involving the quiver), will not be that apparent. Many players probably wouldn't even notice it.

But yeah, I wouldn't mind a Warcraft-inspired design for things like this. I've wanted Ammo pouches or Quivers for a long time in WoW. Or...for anyone who uses the Spearlauncher model from BRF or similar, you could have a leather strap attached to your back with visible spare projectiles(Spears, intended for the launcher).


Last words: Again, I get why you wouldn't want pet involvement for a spec like this one. And originally, I did think of ways to have this focus. But in the end I chose to go more towards the core fantasy of the class. And what it's about. Which coincidentally also falls closer to what was said in the latest Dev Insight-video.
In the past, this spec wasn't only about the ranged abilities, it had several ways/talents that focused on your pet.

[RelaZ]

Before you read any further: No, I didn't read through the entire thread. But I did read the entire OP (which was also cross-posted on the US (?) official forums.

I think this is a great idea. Ranged Survival, MM and Melee Survival needs to get the Feral/Guardian treatment - i.e. complete separation. Sure, they could incorporate Ranged Survival into a new class entirely but I find it very hard to believe they could create a new class with 3 specs where Ranged Survival would fit. But what's clear is "the Ranged Survival spec will get incorporated into the MM talent tree" approach is not working. I have a feeling that, given the input from Ion in the 8.2 video about pruning etc I think it's actually feasible that we might get a ranged survival option back as a fourth spec in 9.0.

Given that, I would very much so like to give some feedback to your, in general, amazing design. I see a couple of (fairly) large holes when it comes to PvP though, and some other small things, so I'll try to address those below:

Modifications:

• Immolation Trap: I assume you mean this should be an aimed trap, just like all the others? I disagree with that strongly. I think the strength of Ranged Survival was the fluidity of the rotation and the most horrifying thing to a DPS rotation is having to aim something on the ground repeatedly, therefore I really dislike this. This should be an automatic application on the target (I'm sure it can still have some fancy animation etc). I think it should re-designed into something like "Immolation Arrow" (with the same effect and the same interaction(s) with talents).
• Enhanced Trap: Enhanced Trap should make it so all traps have an arming time, but travel much faster in the air. Additionally it should give Snake Trap, baseline the Explosive Trap knockback effect and make the Tar Trap grow to the size of the old Ice Trap (the really large one, prior to WoD). Scrap the idea with Freezing Trap manual application as a defensive, it's just going to be jarring for everyone.
• Rapid Fire: The DoT spreading mechanic must avoid spreading to CC'd targets (including feared targets).
• Lock and Load: This has to also be guaranteed to proc when traps activate for extra skill plays (pre-WoD behaviour).
• Ever Burning: This is simply too powerful (it will almost guaranteed be the go-to), and I don't like AoE damage in the single target rotation. Re-design it to allow multi-shot to spread the dot to multiple targets instead, or something like that.
• Replace Trailblazer with Aspect of the Hawk (or some other passive 10% damage reduction talent)
• Baseline Camouflage (weak version, only truly invisible if standing still for 5 seconds), replace the talent with Improved Camouflage (full invisibility but slow movement) in the lvl 45 row.
• Level 75 Row: Replace Binding Shot and Born to be Wild with Narrow Escape and Crouching Tiger, Hidden Chimera (reducing cd of Aspect of the Turtle by 60 seconds instead of Deterrence).
• Level 90 Row: Re-design this entirely. There are already 4 (out of 7) rows dedicated to DPS/rotation only. Don't need to build more optional rotational things into the talent tree. It dillutes what "Ranged Survival" means (i.e. with or without xyz talents). This row seems the least impactful to your entire "plan" so lets change it, but could possibly change the level 60 row instead. Replace with Wyvern Sting/Binding Shot/Intimidation (3 seconds only).
• Resourcefulness: Add "Immolation Arrow" to the effect. Remove the "Black Ice" interaction, it doesn't make sense based on my previous comment.

Removals:

• Enhanced Trap: I dislike the Freezing Trap interaction a lot. Don't force Hunters to choose between CC and defensives when they need both desperately.
• Pet Dispels: The Magic dispel from pets needs to be replaced with something less powerful (both Tranq Shot and pet dispel would be OP).

Additions:

• Tranquilizing Shot (Dispelling 1 Magic, 1 Enrage effect, 25 focus cost), baseline.
• Master's Call, baseline.
• Scatter Shot DRs with itself only.

PS: The talent rows can obviously be shuffled around (but it's important to keep the rows themselves intact). This proposal is also assuming the PvP talents idea is permanently scrapped.

[F Rm]

First off, sorry for the long post here. There was a lot to go through with your reply Thanks btw! Always fun to get some more detailed feedback. Let's you see more in depth what other individuals think, or what they prefer.

Please, keep in mind that, any place below where I don't necessarily agree with you. I'm not trying to be dismissive. I'm just trying to give you some sense of explanation/background to my line of thought with the design choices I made.

I think this is a great idea. Ranged Survival, MM and Melee Survival needs to get the Feral/Guardian treatment - i.e. complete separation.

Agreed.

Sure, they could incorporate Ranged Survival into a new class entirely but I find it very hard to believe they could create a new class with 3 specs where Ranged Survival would fit.

I cannot see this happening either.

But what's clear is "the Ranged Survival spec will get incorporated into the MM talent tree" approach is not working.

If it was their attempt to keep the old SV playstyle in the game, I would say that they did not get it right. Not even close.

I have a feeling that, given the input from Ion in the 8.2 video about pruning etc I think it's actually feasible that we might get a ranged survival option back as a fourth spec in 9.0.

I'm keeping my hopes up.

Would be so nice to get it back. I played that spec from just before Cata up until it was removed with Legion.

Given that, I would very much so like to give some feedback to your, in general, amazing design. I see a couple of (fairly) large holes when it comes to PvP though, and some other small things, so I'll try to address those below:

Thanks a lot!

Alright then, let's get into it.

Immolation Trap: I assume you mean this should be an aimed trap, just like all the others? I disagree with that strongly. I think the strength of Ranged Survival was the fluidity of the rotation and the most horrifying thing to a DPS rotation is having to aim something on the ground repeatedly, therefore I really dislike this. This should be an automatic application on the target (I'm sure it can still have some fancy animation etc).

Fair enough. And I can very much see why you say this.

Honestly, my wants for that specific ability is to keep it as a trap. If they design it to be cast directly at your current target when you use it.
I would not be against this.
I don't engage in PvP at all(only PvE), so for me, manual placement is less of an issue.

By all means, as long as they keep the animation like a trap, I'm all for making it target-based.

Edit: Worth mentioning though that baseline, the Immolation Trap has a 1min CD. So it would not be as frequent as you might think.

You can even make a macro that includes the code "[@player]" in terms of placement and you wouldn't have to aim it at all. Granted that this would require an enemy to be in melee range of you but still...this would make the trap work exactly like it did in the old days before we had ranged traps or the Trap Launcher.

The "Immolation Arrow" suggestion, I get why but if you ask me, it would just look like a toned down Explosive Shot with a longer duration and CD.
Also, Black Arrow aside, which is a very iconic ability for this spec. I don't like naming abilities after a specific weapon type. I like my guns! ;P

Anyway, naming abilities, I would say is less of a problem.

Enhanced Trap should make it so all traps have an arming time, but travel much faster in the air. And make the Tar Trap grow to the size of the old Ice Trap

These two suggestions, I'm all for. Although the traps(some) nowadays mostly...slide...on the ground.

But yeah, good suggestions.
I will include those.

Additionally it should give Snake Trap, baseline the Explosive Trap knockback effect

Are those PvP talents that currently exists?

Because neither Snake Trap nor Explosive Trap has been baseline options for the class for quite a few years.

Scrap the idea with Freezing Trap manual application as a defensive, it's just going to be jarring for everyone.

I would say that this very much depends on what type of content you engage in.

That idea, while sure, you can utilize the mechanic in PvP as well. But PvP was not what first popped into my head, when I came up with it.

Your Freezing Trap still works like it normally does. You can use it to CC anything you want.

The design is basically: If you place a Freezing Trap, and once it's armed. You can then click the ability/hotkey again, and it will manually trigger the trap to form a ice block that you can stand behind.

However, if you place the trap, and if you do not manually trigger it before the normal 30 second CD(24 with the talent Resourcefulness), if you don't trigger it before that CD has passed, then you will have to place a new trap if you want the ice block up(without CC'ing something).

Essentially, you place the trap, then you have 30(or 24) seconds to trigger it manually, after that, you cannot do this. After that, the trap you placed can only be used to CC something. Until you place a new Freezing Trap.

If someone feels like it's not worth it for, let's say PvP, then they don't have to use it for anything but to CC enemy players.

Rapid Fire: The DoT spreading mechanic must avoid spreading to CC'd targets (including feared targets).

If they(devs) were to implement this, I would hope that they design it with that in mind yeah.

Although, the spread radius isn't that large. I was thinking somewhere around 6 yards. Radius that is, not diameter.

Lock and Load: This has to also be guaranteed to proc when traps activate for extra skill plays (pre-WoD behaviour).

Can see why you would want this back. Lock and Load has changed a bit over the years.

I deliberately modified Explosive Shot as a baseline ability to have 2 charges up from 1. And for it to have a slightly longer CD to compensate.
While keeping Lock and Load closer to how it's designed for MM atm.

Granted that it feels kinda...shitty, for MM if you ask me, especially as it's a talent there. As opposed to here where it's a baseline Passive Effect. But that is mostly due to it not proccing as often.

Having said this. IF we were to get some type of traits or something that equals Tier Set bonuses from the past, if we have a system like this with the next expansion then by all means, this would potentially make for a nice bonus effect. In order to give you more control over the procs.

Ever Burning: This is simply too powerful (it will almost guaranteed be the go-to)

If you make it so Explosive Shot would do 100% damage to surrounding enemies as well. Then yes, it would be way to powerful.
I did not add in any numbers as this is something that, with a guarantee, requires tuning to be on par with the other talent choices on the same row.

I would imagine that it could have a proximity-mechanic built into it, as in, it can deal damage to enemies within a certain area/radius, but enemies further away takes less damage.
And like previously with your comment on ES spreading the Black Arrow DoT to nearby targets, this wouldn't have a huge range. It would be intended for stacked AoE.

Edit: To be honest, as far as AoE goes for any hunter spec really, your AoE-capabilities should be mostly focused on stacked AoE. Multi-Shot aside(or Barrage for anyone who would want to use it...).

If you don't like that it affects Explosive Shot, you could always go for other talent options.

I like that it does affect Explosive Shot as it allows for you to sometimes have multiple applications for AoE that you can do.
In case you come up against a pack of enemies that aren't perfectly stacked, they might be separated into two smaller groups, then you could essentially fire off one Explosive Shot into each pack and still feel that you gain something, in case all adds needs to die asap.

Again, we like different things.

Re-design it to allow multi-shot to spread the dot to multiple targets instead, or something like that.

Not entirely sure how you imagine that this would work. I mean, mechanically, ofc you can make it work.
But design wise/fantasy wise, how could a Multi-Shot possibly cause Explosive Shot to deal AoE-damage?

Also, Multi-Shot is already tied to the Serpent Spread Passive effect that involves your Serpent Sting. Having multiple sets of AoE-capabilities tied to a single ability(ranged shot), does not sound very fun/engaging to me.

Replace Trailblazer with Aspect of the Hawk (or some other passive 10% damage reduction talent)

I haven't done anything with the Utility talents.
I've only really focused on stuff that makes for a part of the core playstyle of the spec. As in, offensive damaging abilities and effects.

Having said that, I would not mind some sort of damage reduction(passive or otherwise).

Level 75 Row: Replace Binding Shot and Born to be Wild with Narrow Escape and Crouching Tiger, Hidden Chimera (reducing cd of Aspect of the Turtle by 60 seconds instead of Deterrence).

Same as the above. Haven't looked at utility.
But I would agree with your suggestions.

Baseline Camouflage (weak version, only truly invisible if standing still for 5 seconds), replace the talent with Improved Camouflage (full invisibility but slow movement) in the lvl 45 row.

Again, same as the above. But also, yes pls!

Level 90 Row: Re-design this entirely. There are already 4 (out of 7) rows dedicated to DPS/rotation only. Don't need to build more optional rotational things into the talent tree. It dillutes what "Ranged Survival" means (i.e. with or without xyz talents). This row seems the least impactful to your entire "plan" so lets change it, but could possibly change the level 60 row instead. Replace with Wyvern Sting/Binding Shot/Intimidation (3 seconds only).

Considering all of the Hunter specs are designed with the level 90 talent row being based on damaging abilities. I would say that this talent row needs to remain focused on that as well.

The level 60 row is meant to focus only on increasing your AoE-capabilities(which is a design that many specs today have. Including the Hunter class).

The level 90 row is designed to focus on DoT-management in several ways.

Spitting Cobra - the effect provided by this talent is something I brought here from the past. MoP I think it was but might be wrong on when it worked like that.

Pre-Heat - is essentially made for those that likes to focus more on Immolation Trap and to make it more like a part of your "rotation" rather than letting it stay as a mid-range CD.
Immolation Trap in itself, with the design from this talent, is inspired by the talent "A Murder of Crows" that we currently have within all the other Hunter specs.
Immolation Trap is designed to essentially be the ranged SV equivalent to "A Murder of Crows". Again, to fit the fantasy of SV. As I think AMoC fits better with Beast Mastery. Or perhaps even with the current melee SV. But for ranged SV, or for MM, not so much IMO.

Intoxication - is another idea for DoT-management. Although, it also lets you choose if you want to use it for that or for some extra instant damage(guaranteed critical strikes).
You also have the additional effect that makes Black Arrow proc this with a guarantee. Which is ofc helpful both for ST-damage as well as when you have activated Rapid Fire and have multiple targets afflicted with Black Arrow.

The overall design of this talent row is to cater towards more people's preferences. Rather than a few. In terms of how they might want to manage DoTs.

Resourcefulness: Add "Immolation Arrow" to the effect. Remove the "Black Ice" interaction, it doesn't make sense based on my previous comment.

Like I said above, Immolation Arrow, to me sounds just like a toned down version of Explosive Shot. With a longer CD and a longer Duration.

Besides, we would already have Serpent Sting as well as Black Arrow. Having one more ranged shot that would essentially work exactly like them in terms of how it deals damage, does not make sense to me.

Removals:
Enhanced Trap: I dislike the Freezing Trap interaction a lot. Don't force Hunters to choose between CC and defensives when they need both desperately.

It would not force them to do anything. Quite the opposite. It would give you more choices.
Stripping us of choices is what has led us to the state the class is in today.

Again, I did not design that effect with PvP as the main focus. Mostly it was designed for all types of PvE-content(Raids, Dungeons, Open world: questing/leveling).
If you take raids as an example. For the most part, you don't really use your Freezing Trap as a hunter. And for the times you would want to, with this design, you could still do so.

Some people like the Trap-element A LOT. And if they find that getting to use that ability more frequently for an extra instant boost to damage and to potentially gain some extra defensive effect out of it. Why not?

If you don't like to use that new effect in PvP(or w/e type of content you engage in), you don't have to.

Pet Dispels: The Magic dispel from pets needs to be replaced with something less powerful (both Tranq Shot and pet dispel would be OP).

It would yes, though we don't have Tranq Shot in the game anymore.

Additions:
Tranquilizing Shot (Dispelling 1 Magic, 1 Enrage effect, 25 focus cost), baseline.

Ah.
Well, why not.

Master's Call, baseline.

Yes please.

Edit:
Though, we do have it already. Cunning Pets provides this.

I assume that you meant that you want it to not be dependent on what pet family you choose to play with.

Scatter Shot DRs with itself only.

You're talking PvP-talents again or?

This proposal is also assuming the PvP talents idea is permanently scrapped.

There is no "PvP-talent" here. We have a separate talent-system that involves PvP stuff.

I would say that, if you want stuff here to change for PvP purposes, then that's a separate issue. Unless there's something that simply would not work, mechanically.

All talents as well as abilities and passive effects within this spec design, are created to potentially be helpful/beneficial for all parts of the game. Not just e.g. raiding or high end PvP.


If you have any more questions, feel free to get back to me here!

Note that anything regarding baseline utility(that involves the entire Class I should say, or PvP talents etc.) or similar, I have not looked into, nor do I plan to. I wanted to only focus on anything that involves the spec in itself. And sure, that ofc includes any sort of utility specific to the fantasy of ranged SV.
Edit: changed my mind just a bit here. In terms of keeping the SV fantasy, as far as specific effects or traits etc, that focuses on PvP. I thought of 2 things.

1: An addition(through PvP talents or similar), that makes it so, if any of your DoTs(like ES/BA or SS) are dispelled from a target, that target will suffer from it.
Something on the lines of, if your Serpent Sting is dispelled, it causes the enemy being dispelled to take reduced healing for X seconds.
Or, if your Black Arrow is dispelled, it would apply another harmful effect to them. Etc.

2: If we keep the extra feature on the Freezing Trap(through the Enhanced Traps passive), you could always design either a PvP talent or some PvP set bonus(or similar), that makes it so, if someone shatters your Freezing Trap(by any means), it would slow their movement speed by X% for 4 seconds. It would also slow their attack speed/their cast speed by X% for the same duration.

Just some stuff specific to SV, on the top of my head. I'm sure you could find more.



PS:

Before you read any further: No, I didn't read through the entire thread. But I did read the entire OP (which was also cross-posted on the US (?) official forums.

No worries. There are quite a few pages of replies by now.
And yes, you can find this topic on the US forum as well.

I wanted to post it on multiple platforms to reach as many people as possible. As, some, don't visit the Official forums while others, don't visit MMOC.

[RelaZ]

I'll get right to the interesting stuff, so sorry for not replying to the things where we agree.

Fair enough. And I can very much see why you say this.

Honestly, my wants for that specific ability is to keep it as a trap. If they design it to be cast directly at your current target when you use it.
I would not be against this.
I don't engage in PvP at all(only PvE), so for me, manual placement is less of an issue.

By all means, as long as they keep the animation like a trap, I'm all for making it target-based.

Edit: Worth mentioning though that baseline, the Immolation Trap has a 1min CD. So it would not be as frequent as you might think.

You can even make a macro that includes the code "[@player]" in terms of placement and you wouldn't have to aim it at all. Granted that this would require an enemy to be in melee range of you but still...this would make the trap work exactly like it did in the old days before we had ranged traps or the Trap Launcher.

The "Immolation Arrow" suggestion, I get why but if you ask me, it would just look like a toned down Explosive Shot with a longer duration and CD.
Also, Black Arrow aside, which is a very iconic ability for this spec. I don't like naming abilities after a specific weapon type. I like my guns! ;P

Anyway, naming abilities, I would say is less of a problem.

The reason why, for example, MoP Survival Hunter is hailed as quite possibly one of the top 3 iterations of any class/spec of all time is because of the fluidity.

With regards to your macro proposal. @cursor does little more than remove the aiming rectacle and the extra click to ensure you aim it right, which to a lot of people is actually even worse than default behaviour. In PvP most people have their mouse keys pressed at almost all times for movement (the only exception being when doing Blizzard, aiming a CC trap etc), having to release that (i.e. lose mobility) to aim your trap during DPS rotation is just super clunky. Additionally, in PvP - this type of aimed stuff is really annoying and jarring because what will happen is people will bunch up on their CC'd partners giving you a 50% chance to accidentally trap their CC'd partner, thus breaking CC.

In general, it's just awful to have aimed abilities as part of the DPS rotation (even if it is a 1min CD). Maybe in the AoE rotation, but even then I disagree.

If it's automatically flung at the target (and automatically hits, no shenanigans with the target running away after you've thrown the trap and it missing) your proposal sounds okay to me.

Are those PvP talents that currently exists?

Because neither Snake Trap nor Explosive Trap has been baseline options for the class for quite a few years.

Snake Trap was pruned in WoD and Explosive Trap was changed to: https://www.wowhead.com/spell=236776/hi-explosive-trap which is currently a PvP talent. However, all my suggestions were assuming that PvP talents are removed. Which I think they should be, classes (and well specs) should be unified in PvE and PvP as much as possible, at least when it comes to the base set (then you can naturally have specific individual nerfs/buffs/tuning that are PvP only). I'll talk more about this "unity" of the spec/class later when I discuss your proposal w.r.t the level 90 talent row.

I would say that this very much depends on what type of content you engage in.

That idea, while sure, you can utilize the mechanic in PvP as well. But PvP was not what first popped into my head, when I came up with it.

Your Freezing Trap still works like it normally does. You can use it to CC anything you want.

The design is basically: If you place a Freezing Trap, and once it's armed. You can then click the ability/hotkey again, and it will manually trigger the trap to form a ice block that you can stand behind.

However, if you place the trap, and if you do not manually trigger it before the normal 30 second CD(24 with the talent Resourcefulness), if you don't trigger it before that CD has passed, then you will have to place a new trap if you want the ice block up(without CC'ing something).

Essentially, you place the trap, then you have 30(or 24) seconds to trigger it manually, after that, you cannot do this. After that, the trap you placed can only be used to CC something. Until you place a new Freezing Trap.

If someone feels like it's not worth it for, let's say PvP, then they don't have to use it for anything but to CC enemy players.

It would not force them to do anything. Quite the opposite. It would give you more choices.
Stripping us of choices is what has led us to the state the class is in today

Again, I did not design that effect with PvP as the main focus. Mostly it was designed for all types of PvE-content(Raids, Dungeons, Open world: questing/leveling).
If you take raids as an example. For the most part, you don't really use your Freezing Trap as a hunter. And for the times you would want to, with this design, you could still do so.

Some people like the Trap-element A LOT. And if they find that getting to use that ability more frequently for an extra instant boost to damage and to potentially gain some extra defensive effect out of it. Why not?

If you don't like to use that new effect in PvP(or w/e type of content you engage in), you don't have to.

To begin with, I completely understood what you meant, no need to repeat it. You do not however understand the consequences of implementing this functionality into Freezing Trap.

1. If this was to be implemented the Hunter would have to "choose" to use the 24sec (assuming Resourcefullnes) trap on EITHER a defensive or a CC. This is problematic, because all Hunter comps depend on Freezing Trap CC being landed every 24sec. So when you're forced (yes, forced) to start using Freezing Trap as a defensive to survive it's a loss regardless, due to lost counter momentum potential. A Lose-Lose situation. This means that in PvP, this is essentially useless. Why implement something that's useless instead of adding something that's useful to everyone?

2. It's incredibly clunky. A) There will be a lot of missclicks (activating the Ice Tomb when you don't want). B) It's just icky to have two so different mechanics in the same ability. C) Adding a static "you have to stand here" kind of defensive mechanic doesn't really scream "fluidity" to me, it screams clunky and immobile.

3. If you really want to use Freezing Trap "as a defensive", why don't you just trap one of the target's that's hitting you. Freezing Trap already has a perfectly capable defensive usage (which however also has the very same issue as mentioned in 1., i.e. it's completely useless in PvP).

4. Based on the additions I made to the proposed talent tree, I don't think there is a need for more Hunter defensives - the extra mobility and CC along with the fluidity of the spec itself will make up for it, also not everyone can have everythng, there's got to be at least some semblance of a weakness.

5. If you really want to add some defensives I propose baselining either of the PvP talents Survival Tactics and Dragonscale Armor. Survival Tactics might be a bad choice due to problems with raid mechanics (soaking).

If they(devs) were to implement this, I would hope that they design it with that in mind yeah.

Although, the spread radius isn't that large. I was thinking somewhere around 6 yards. Radius that is, not diameter.

Doesn't matter what the spread radius is. People aren't stupid. They'll just start stacking whenever they see you popping Rapid Fire because they know they'll be immune to CC then (from you breaking it with automatic AoE damage).

Can see why you would want this back. Lock and Load has changed a bit over the years.

I deliberately modified Explosive Shot as a baseline ability to have 2 charges up from 1. And for it to have a slightly longer CD to compensate.
While keeping Lock and Load closer to how it's designed for MM atm.

Granted that it feels kinda...shitty, for MM if you ask me, especially as it's a talent there. As opposed to here where it's a baseline Passive Effect. But that is mostly due to it not proccing as often.

Having said this. IF we were to get some type of traits or something that equals Tier Set bonuses from the past, if we have a system like this with the next expansion then by all means, this would potentially make for a nice bonus effect. In order to give you more control over the procs.

It most definitely should not be a set bonus, it should be as you have suggested initially - a baseline passive effect. If you tie it to a set bonus it'll be there for one tier/pvp season and then gone for an eternity/forever. This is such a small but incredibly, incredibly skillful mechanic that it shouldn't be a one tier thing, or PvP only, or PvE only for that matter.

It doesn't matter if it's the WoD version or some other version of Lock and Load, it just also has to (baseline) be guaranteed to proc from your "CC Traps": Freezing Trap, Snake Trap, and Explosive Trap. Specifically excluding Immolation Trap, a bit unsure about Tar Trap.

If you make it so Explosive Shot would do 100% damage to surrounding enemies as well. Then yes, it would be way to powerful.
I did not add in any numbers as this is something that, with a guarantee, requires tuning to be on par with the other talent choices on the same row.

I would imagine that it could have a proximity-mechanic built into it, as in, it can deal damage to enemies within a certain area/radius, but enemies further away takes less damage.
And like previously with your comment on ES spreading the Black Arrow DoT to nearby targets, this wouldn't have a huge range. It would be intended for stacked AoE.

Edit: To be honest, as far as AoE goes for any hunter spec really, your AoE-capabilities should be mostly focused on stacked AoE. Multi-Shot aside(or Barrage for anyone who would want to use it...).

If you don't like that it affects Explosive Shot, you could always go for other talent options.

I like that it does affect Explosive Shot as it allows for you to sometimes have multiple applications for AoE that you can do.
In case you come up against a pack of enemies that aren't perfectly stacked, they might be separated into two smaller groups, then you could essentially fire off one Explosive Shot into each pack and still feel that you gain something, in case all adds needs to die asap.

Again, we like different things.

People are not stupid. If the numbers tuning on this thing turns out such that it's ever t1 everyone will be forced to play it, no matter how clunky it is or isn't. And I think I mentioned this in my previous post - but I think automatic AoE damage in your ST rotation is horrible for most classes and specs. It's just another thing which causes you as a player to lose control, because it's all RNG based on where people happen to move after you shoot your (must use) DPS abilities. This means that even if you outplayed your opponents you can't even ST DPS because if you do your target might run into a CC'd target and then the CC breaks (roots and fears especially).

Survival was amazing partly due to this in MoP - AoE and ST was almost completely separated (only Glaive Toss / Barrage was AoE but were used in the ST rotation - but they were at least on a longer CD, and if you really wanted to you could potentially pick Powershot although no one did due to numbers tuning).

Not entirely sure how you imagine that this would work. I mean, mechanically, ofc you can make it work.
But design wise/fantasy wise, how could a Multi-Shot possibly cause Explosive Shot to deal AoE-damage?

Also, Multi-Shot is already tied to the Serpent Spread Passive effect that involves your Serpent Sting. Having multiple sets of AoE-capabilities tied to a single ability(ranged shot), does not sound very fun/engaging to me.

I don't actually know how I imagined that would work. Actually I didn't imagine it would work. The "or maybe something else" part of my original post was the thing I was going for.

Considering all of the Hunter specs are designed with the level 90 talent row being based on damaging abilities. I would say that this talent row needs to remain focused on that as well.

The level 60 row is meant to focus only on increasing your AoE-capabilities(which is a design that many specs today have. Including the Hunter class).

The level 90 row is designed to focus on DoT-management in several ways.

Spitting Cobra - the effect provided by this talent is something I brought here from the past. MoP I think it was but might be wrong on when it worked like that.

Pre-Heat - is essentially made for those that likes to focus more on Immolation Trap and to make it more like a part of your "rotation" rather than letting it stay as a mid-range CD.
Immolation Trap in itself, with the design from this talent, is inspired by the talent "A Murder of Crows" that we currently have within all the other Hunter specs.
Immolation Trap is designed to essentially be the ranged SV equivalent to "A Murder of Crows". Again, to fit the fantasy of SV. As I think AMoC fits better with Beast Mastery. Or perhaps even with the current melee SV. But for ranged SV, or for MM, not so much IMO.

Intoxication - is another idea for DoT-management. Although, it also lets you choose if you want to use it for that or for some extra instant damage(guaranteed critical strikes).
You also have the additional effect that makes Black Arrow proc this with a guarantee. Which is ofc helpful both for ST-damage as well as when you have activated Rapid Fire and have multiple targets afflicted with Black Arrow.

The overall design of this talent row is to cater towards more people's preferences. Rather than a few. In terms of how they might want to manage DoTs.

If you have 5/7 talents changing how the spec plays it's no longer 1 spec, at some point it becomes multiple sub-specs within the spec. Are you an Intoxication RSV Hunter? Or a Spitting Cobra RSV Hunter? Yeah you'll change from a fight to fight basis based on what is best - so there's no continuity in how the core of your class plays (also a problem with the PvP talents - no continuity between PvP and PvE, and also not between fights, although that's a different discussion).

This entire idea of shoving so many core dps rotation modifications (or even core rotation abilities, which they have done in BfA) into talents needs to stop. Classes (and specs) need to feel complete baseline. Just pick one of your suggested talents and baseline it instead. It's much better to use the talent trees for other things like mobility, cc, off-healing, and utility (much less impactful) - just like they did in MoP when the current talent tree system was originally introduced and they understood this problem and thus, wisely, chose to put much fewer "dps"/"healing" rows in the trees (Hunters even back then had quite a lot of dps modification talents, 3/6).

Like I said above, Immolation Arrow, to me sounds just like a toned down version of Explosive Shot. With a longer CD and a longer Duration.

Besides, we would already have Serpent Sting as well as Black Arrow. Having one more ranged shot that would essentially work exactly like them in terms of how it deals damage, does not make sense to me.

In MoP Arcane Shot was a thing, do that instead of "Immolation Arrow" maybe. Actually, in MoP Explosive Trap was actually used for AoE. Maybe Immolation Trap could be an AoE damage trap (something you wouldnt use in your regular ST DPS rotation), idk. I didn't really feel the Tar Trap synergy to be fair, but that's something I can live with.

Something else I completely forgot is Kill Shot, also very key to fun gameplay given that SV doesn't really have much in terms of burst (it's almost all DoT damage).

It would yes, though we don't have Tranq Shot in the game anymore.
Ah.
Well, why not.

Yeah, Tranq Shot allowed us to do so many fun things.

Yes please.
Edit:
Though, we do have it already. Cunning Pets provides this.
I assume that you meant that you want it to not be dependent on what pet family you choose to play with.

You're right, at some point (Legion), it was a PvP talent only for Survival. No I did not mean for it to be pet family independent.

You're talking PvP-talents again or?

No, I didn't even talk about PvP talents a single time in my old post (other than saying that I'm assuming they are removed). So, I meant baseline. It currently resides in the "Incapacitates" diminishing returns category which is very detrimental to the Scatter + Trap.

There is no "PvP-talent" here. We have a separate talent-system that involves PvP stuff.

I would say that, if you want stuff here to change for PvP purposes, then that's a separate issue. Unless there's something that simply would not work, mechanically.

All talents as well as abilities and passive effects within this spec design, are created to potentially be helpful/beneficial for all parts of the game. Not just e.g. raiding or high end PvP.

As I explained above, PvP talents are terrible for the game as a whole, and my proposal was assuming they're gone completely so that we can have one, whole, experience instead of which is half (PvE) and one which full (PvP). Regardless of that issue, there's only so much you can do with PvP talents because they're all mutually exclusive to the point where you can only have 3 active at a time so if you want to add too many of them of them you'll have to give something else (which should ideally be baseline) up. Furthermore, PvP talents are limited in the sense that the PvP team is severely limited in how much they're allowed to actually change classes/specs between PvP and PvE - so it's just better to make the changes to the "base" classes/specs instead so we don't see any large disparencies.

PS: I don't see how it's a separate issue if I want to change something for "PvP purposes" (I don't, I want to change them baseline - so that it'll be better overall). If it's a separate issue if I want to change something for "PvP purposes" then it's also a "separate issue" if you want to change (or keep) something for "PvE purposes" (or whatever purposes you have, sounds like you have very casual purposes to me but I definitely can't tell). Don't treat PvPers as second class citizens whose concerns are "separate issues" - it doesn't work like that.

If you have any more questions, feel free to get back to me here!

Note that anything regarding baseline utility(that involves the entire Class I should say, or PvP talents etc.) or similar, I have not looked into, nor do I plan to. I wanted to only focus on anything that involves the spec in itself. And sure, that ofc includes any sort of utility specific to the fantasy of ranged SV.
Edit: changed my mind just a bit here. In terms of keeping the SV fantasy, as far as specific effects or traits etc, that focuses on PvP. I thought of 2 things.

1: An addition(through PvP talents or similar), that makes it so, if any of your DoTs(like ES/BA or SS) are dispelled from a target, that target will suffer from it.
Something on the lines of, if your Serpent Sting is dispelled, it causes the enemy being dispelled to take reduced healing for X seconds.
Or, if your Black Arrow is dispelled, it would apply another harmful effect to them. Etc.

2: If we keep the extra feature on the Freezing Trap(through the Enhanced Traps passive), you could always design either a PvP talent or some PvP set bonus(or similar), that makes it so, if someone shatters your Freezing Trap(by any means), it would slow their movement speed by X% for 4 seconds. It would also slow their attack speed/their cast speed by X% for the same duration.

Just some stuff specific to SV, on the top of my head. I'm sure you could find more.

I'll give you the courtesy of answering your PvP related suggestions since you listened to mine.

DoT dispel protection: Yes, this was a problem in... Legion (might have been WoD?). It sort of became a sport to insta-dispel Black Arrow, it got to the point where BA became an unplayable talent in PvP. Something probably needs to be done here, but just copying other dispel protection schemes isn't that original either - so I'm not sure what should be done. Could be that if it's dispelled the CD is reduced by 75% or something. Though, I don't agree with regards to the other DoTs though since they're all almost instantly re-applicable whereas dispelling has an 8sec CD.

Freezing Trap: I just don't agree with the premise (Freezing Trap being usable as an "ice tomb") so I find it very hard to argue for/against this.

I wanted to post it on multiple platforms to reach as many people as possible. As, some, don't visit the Official forums while others, don't visit MMOC.

Yeah, I don't know if you posted it on the EU forums, but us EU's can't post on the US forums either, so even if we read it we can't reply no matter how much we want to. Also, you can't post on the official forums without an active sub (so if you quit due to horrible class design you're shit out of luck).

For example there's some dude that wants Scatter Shot to DR with Disorients instead of Incapacitates which would permanently break any Hunter synergy with the rest of our viable partners except Paladins (which is probably the only comp he runs). Unfortunately I'm unable to reply and tell him that's nonsense and would cause terrible damage that would take multiple expansions to revert (if at all possible due to Blizzard's snail pace), so now I'm really worried Blizzard is actually going to listen to him because no one seems to be arguing against it.

[F Rm]

Thanks for another reply RelaZ.

Before you continue on reading here, I just want to stress that, my proposed spec design, was done with the systems that we currently have in the game, in mind.

As an example, I see that you really want PvP-talents to be removed.
If I designed the spec based on that the current PvP/PvE-separation was no longer a thing, this would automatically render my design pretty much useless and/or non-viable, in case they don't actually remove that system.

As for some other things, we have varying opinions on a lot of things. Nothing wrong with that really. People prefer different things.
It's clear to me that you care much for PvP.

With regards to your macro proposal. @cursor does little more than remove the aiming rectacle and the extra click to ensure you aim it right, which to a lot of people is actually even worse than default behaviour.

I can understand this. Keep in mind though that what I wrote regarding a macro was not a suggestion for a cursor-targeting function.
What I typed was [@player], and in this case, it would place the trap at your feet(it would make your trap work almost exactly like it did in the old days before we had any sort of ranged cast function for traps).

But no matter really, I'm not against making it a target based ability. I just want it to essentially be(look) like the old Immolation Trap.
Just made to fit within the game today.
Also, like I said, an ability with a 1min CD, I wouldn't call much of a hazzle in regards to your "rotation" and fluidity.

Hunters in the past had several traps that dealt damage, traps that you could use in PvP as well, if you wanted/needed. Those traps had a shorter CD than 1min.
Which meant that you could use them more frequently than every minute.

Maybe in the AoE rotation, but even then I disagree.

A lot of classes have aimed abilities, especially for AoE purposes. If you don't like this design, it's just a subjective viewpoint based on a personal opinion. Now, don't get me wrong but, opinions vary a lot. Some(like me), have nothing against aimed abilities.

As far as traps go for hunters. Having to aim them, even those you would use for damage, was always a strong part of the core fantasy of the class in the past.
Granted that they, as time went by, took away more and more. Some that we now have again, through for example PvP talents. But that does not take away that a big part of the class fantasy of hunters, was the use of traps.
The old SV spec was no exception(before they pruned everything).

Additionally, in PvP - this type of aimed stuff is really annoying and jarring because what will happen is people will bunch up on their CC'd partners giving you a 50% chance to accidentally trap their CC'd partner, thus breaking CC.

If it's automatically flung at the target (and automatically hits, no shenanigans with the target running away after you've thrown the trap and it missing) your proposal sounds okay to me.

I totally get why you would not like this, based on PvP.

But class/spec design cannot be based on a single piece of content that involves only part of the playerbase.
Using aimed traps in PvE(all types of PvE really), is not a big deal really.

And as far as enemy players bunching up on a CC'd partner goes, isn't this exactly what makes for part of the challenge with PvP? That you have to make choices based on what enemy players decide to do as opposed to when you're fighting brainless NPCs?

But again, I agree that if we can get a target based aim for some traps. I would not be against it.

However, all my suggestions were assuming that PvP talents are removed.

This is a whole other topic really. Depending on how they would do it, yeah maybe.

But you can't create abilities/effects and expect them to be perfect for both PvE as well as PvP. These types of combat are way to different for that to be a thing.

Which I think they should be, classes (and well specs) should be unified in PvE and PvP as much as possible, at least when it comes to the base set

I get this, I really do.
Although, they have designed all specs with a "base set" of abilities or effects in mind. And PvP talents are supposed to be something extra, that is an addition to the "base set".

Do everyone agree on the exact design we have atm? No, not even close.

So when you're forced (yes, forced) to start using Freezing Trap as a defensive to survive it's a loss regardless, due to lost counter momentum potential.

So, if you wouldn't have this defensive aspect(as on live, we currently do not). How do you survive now then?

Anyway, no, that's not you being forced. That is you, making a choice to use an ability for 1 purpose, out of 2 possible ones.

Now, I want to add something here. I haven't mentioned much about how good of a defensive it would be. The idea, really, is that, the ice block you create from the trap, can absorb maybe 1 or 2 direct hits before it shatters. If it does not take the damage required to shatter it, it will stay up for(in this case) 8 seconds before it shatters automatically.

Also, it only protects you from any incoming attack/spell cast that comes from an enemy standing on the opposite side of the ice block, compared to where you are. The Ice block needs to be between you and the enemy who attacks you. Otherwise, it would do nothing.

It's not intended to be an 8 second immunity.

So, I have no idea really, if it would ever be worth using the Freezing Trap as a defensive in any sort of high-end PvP. It might be better to always use it for CC.

One thought I had regarding some eventual PvP design/talent for this ability, was to add in a slow effect(slowing movement speed/attack speed as well as cast speed) on the enemy that shatters the ice block. For a set amount of time.

There will be a lot of missclicks (activating the Ice Tomb when you don't want).

This may very well be the case. Though, if people accidentally hit the wrong hotkey or if they spam their hotkeys, that's not really a design issue.
And also, you wouldn't be able to hit the key once to cast the trap, and insta-activate it with a manual trigger if you happen to do a fast double tap on the hotkey.
The trap, like all others, would have a travel time, and a short arming time before you can trigger it(or anyone else).

Adding a static "you have to stand here" kind of defensive mechanic doesn't really scream "fluidity" to me, it screams clunky and immobile.

Again, if this mechanic is not perfect for PvP. So be it.
You already now in-game, have a LOT of situations where certain things aren't perfect for every situation.

On a side note, the choice to add in separate PvP-talents, was one way to try to get around this problem.
But the base talent "trees" you see for any spec in the game, they do not carry a single talent solely designed for PvP-purposes.

They are designed to have some sort of usefulness for all types of content.

Again, if some of them aren't optimal for the exact type of content you're doing. That's something we just have to deal with.

Based on the additions I made to the proposed talent tree, I don't think there is a need for more Hunter defensives - the extra mobility and CC along with the fluidity of the spec itself will make up for it, also not everyone can have everythng, there's got to be at least some semblance of a weakness.

Several of your suggestions for defensive effects/abilities have little to no use in, let's say raids.

Doesn't matter what the spread radius is. People aren't stupid. They'll just start stacking whenever they see you popping Rapid Fire because they know they'll immune to CC then (from you breaking it with AoE damage).

Again, I hope that this specific mechanical aspect could be designed with the issue you bring up, in mind.

Also, I know that you said that you don't want separate PvP talents in the game, but you could very well create a PvP talent(or some other type of set bonus or a bonus trait from w/e source), that changes part of how your Rapid Fire works. As an example, it could remove the AoE aspects of the ability, and make it focus even more on ST damage.

It doesn't matter if it's the WoD version or some other version of Lock and Load, it just also has to (baseline) be guaranteed to proc from your "CC Traps": Freezing Trap, Snake Trap, and Explosive Trap. Specifically excluding Immolation Trap, a bit unsure about Tar Trap.

So, make it a PvP talent then. This is the exact reason for why they created PvP-talents. For stuff that would be a lot more useful for those that engage in PvP. But it might have less use for PvE.

Not everything can be a baseline effect. Look at current specs and what they have in terms of baseline effects. It's the same thing there.

I should probably add though that, if you look at the new base design I'm suggesting for Explosive Shot, combined with passive effects and/or talents that somehow enhances the ability. Having so many ways to give guaranteed procs on Lock and Load. You would essentially end up with more charges of Explosive Shot than you could make use of(within a certain window of time).

Lock and Load in itself, is designed today to give 1 extra charge of, Aimed Shot for Marksmanship, and for ranged SV, it would give 1 extra charge of Explosive Shot.

The old design of Lock and Load that we used to have. That's not the design that it currently has.

People are not stupid. If the numbers tuning on this thing turns out such that it's ever t1 everyone will be forced to play it, no matter how clunky it is or isn't

Again, this is not what "being forced" means. If they were to create SV and include that tier. But they would remove the 2 other talents on that row so the only choice you could make, was that of Ever Burning. THAT, would be forcing players to pick something.

Now, as I don't engage in PvP, I have no idea really how often you would want to AoE.
But you do have the option to pick Ferocious Inspiration on that talent row which is based on an ability that deals instant damage. So, you would have much more control over when or if, you decide to AoE.

Maybe this means, that for high-end PvP, then Ferocious Inspiration is the best talent on that row?

Again, this spec is not solely designed with high-end PvP in mind.
(No spec should be).

The "or maybe something else" part of my original post was the thing I was going for.

Fair enough. I'm open to suggestions here. If we can find some way to allow for a manual activate on Explosive Shot's AoE damage, then by all means.
But, like I said above, sticking that effect onto Multi-Shot, I would be strongly against doing. As Multi-Shot already involves other types of AoE.

If you have 5/7 talents changing how the spec plays it's no longer 1 spec, at some point it becomes multiple sub-specs within the spec. Are you an Intoxication RSV Hunter? Or a Spitting Cobra RSV Hunter? Yeah you'll change from a fight to fight basis based on what is best - so there's no continuity in how the core of your class plays (also a problem with the PvP talents - no continuity between PvP and PvE, and also not between fights, although that's a different discussion).

This is how all classes are designed today.

Besides, many(including myself), like this concept.

And really, based on what's best? Granted that this is how many thinks. But again, this is not a design problem. It's a perception problem(as in, based on the playerbase).

You simply cannot achieve perfect balance within this game. It's impossible. There will always be that one choice that is the BEST choice. In terms of performance.

If the devs were to start designing classes/specs based on performance and perfect balance alone, then we would really have a problem. Because, that, is how you effectively destroy the core design that makes the game as a whole.

This entire idea of shoving so many core dps rotation modifications (or even core rotation abilities, which they have done in BfA) into talents needs to stop. Classes (and specs) need to feel complete baseline. Just pick one of your suggested talents and baseline it instead. It's much better to use the talent trees for other things like mobility, cc, off-healing, and utility (much less impactful) - just like they did in MoP when the current talent tree system was originally introduced and they understood this problem and thus, wisely, chose to put much fewer "dps"/"healing" rows in the trees (Hunters even back then had quite a lot of dps modification talents, 3/6).

Peoples opinions here, they vary a lot.

I hated the talent design of MoP and Wod.
I want talents to be based on your current spec and it's intended fantasy. I want them to further enhance it.

And like I said, I've designed this spec with the philosophies of today in mind.

You cannot bring back SV as it used to be in let's say MoP, or WoD. Because the design philosophies back then were different from those they go by today. For all classes and specs.

In the latest Dev Insight video, Ion talked about how they in the future might be taking a step or two back in terms of ability pruning and class fantasy, rather than spec fantasy. He also pointed out that, they largely intend to keep specs more focused. But they might bring back certain abilities that we used to have. Abilities that were baseline for the entire class.
That by no means, meant that they will go back on their decision to make talents focus on each perspective specialization rather than the design we had between MoP and WoD.

Arcane Shot. Maybe Immolation Trap could be an AoE damage trap (something you wouldnt use in your regular ST DPS rotation), idk. I didn't really feel the Tar Trap synergy to be fair, but that's something I can live with.

I decided to leave Arcane Shot out for two reasons.

1) Arcane Shot is already a core ability for Marksmanship on live atm.
2) In my design, we have Quick Shot instead of Arcane Shot.
Quick Shot used to be the extra spender for MM in the BfA alpha/beta. But they changed it to Arcane Shot because players rather wanted that for MM.
I decided to pick Quick Shot as, the spec already have so many abilities that are based on magical damage. Having one(or a few) that are based on Physical damage, doesn't sound wrong to me.
Why? I saw several complaints in the past were players said that they did not like survival due to it feeling so much like a magic damage-based spec. They said that all the DoT's made it seem as if the spec wasn't actually about the ranged weapon. Now, these were personal opinions ofc. But again, having something that is based purely on your weapon itself, I say, why not.

I'm also of the opinion that no class other than Mages, should have access to any type of Arcane-based damage sources.

Now to the second point regarding Immolation Trap.
I liked the old Explosive Trap for AoE. I liked all traps really. But I also liked Immolation Trap for ST.
I designed it like this as, Immolation Trap would here be part of your baseline set of abilities. Allowing it to ignite any Tar it comes in contact with(would only be possible if an enemy that is currently burning, stands/steps in the Tar from the Tar Trap), it was my way of bringing in both Immolation Trap as well as Explosive Trap.

No, I didn't even talk about PvP talents a single time in my old post (other than saying that I'm assuming they are removed). So, I meant baseline. It currently resides in the "Incapacitates" diminishing returns category which is very detrimental to the Scatter + Trap.

As I explained above, PvP talents are terrible for the game as a whole, and my proposal was assuming they're gone completely so that we can have one, whole, experience instead of one which is half (PvE) and one which contains all the goodies (PvP).

Alright then.

Well. PvP talents are currently a thing.
And I have designed this spec with that in mind. As I very much doubt that they will remove those with the next expansion.

Regardless of that issue, there's only so much you can do with PvP talents because they're all mutually exclusive to the point where you can only have 3 active at a time so if you want to add too many of them of them you'll have to give something else (which should ideally be baseline) up.

Who knows what they decide to do with PvP-talents in future expansions? Maybe they will allow for more choices to be made at the same time?

The only thing regarding PvP-talents that I can say is that I doubt we will see them gone with the next expansion.

so that it'll be better overall.

This would very much depend on who you ask really.

or whatever purposes you have, sounds like you have very casual purposes to me but I definitely can't tell

Both yes and no really.
And besides, like I said before, when you design a spec, you have to take "casual" gameplay in mind as well.
You also have to account for new(er) players that are just leveling up. You have to account for players who are still far away from starting to raid or do dungeons, or do PvP. Yet alone, do high end M+/high end PvP or Mythic raiding.

Outside of PvP, most people would have little issue with the proposed design addition for the Freezing Trap.
For varying reasons…

Don't treat PvPers as second class citizens whose concerns are "separate issues" - it doesn't work like that.

I'm not, but it sounds like you mostly only care about making the spec perfect for those who engage in high-end PvP.
Now, I ofc don't have any specific numbers, but the amount of people who do that, it's not a very big number compared to everyone who is playing the game.

If it sounds like that's what I'm doing, it's not my intention. I just base my decisions on how the game is currently designed. Based on the systems that we currently have.

I couldn't really make the design suggestions I did based on that we wouldn't have for example PvP-talents. That would NOT be a realistic way to go at it.

Freezing Trap: I just don't agree with the premise (Freezing Trap being usable as an "ice tomb") so I find it very hard to argue for/against this.

This is your opinion. And you are ofc free to have one.

I will just say this, outside of PvP, to be able to choose between using Freezing Trap to CC something or choose to trigger it manually so you can stand behind it and use it for protection, this would very much be a positive thing as in a lot(a lot, not all) of situations, you have little to no use for your Freezing Trap(not only talking raids here).

Though, I don't agree with regards to the other DoTs though since they're all almost instantly re-applicable whereas dispelling has an 8sec CD.

It was a suggestion. If you find little use for that effect on anything but Black Arrow. Fair enough.

Yeah, I don't know if you posted it on the EU forums, but us EU's can't post on the US forums either, so even if we read it we can't reply no matter how much we want to.

https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...-fantasy/47579

It's up on the EU Hunter forum yes, as well as a reply in a topic on the US Hunter forum.

I'm playing on EU servers so the post in that link is actually the original post.

For example there's some dude that wants Scatter Shot to DR with Disorients instead of Incapacitates which would permanently break any Hunter synergy with, not only Incap DR heavy classes - since Freezing Trap is still on Incap DR, but also Rogues, Druids and Warlocks. Unfortunately I'm unable to reply and tell him that's nonsense and would cause terrible damage that would take multiple expansions, so now I'm really worried Blizzard is actually going to listen to him because no one seems to be arguing against it.

Does not sound very good no. Again, I don't engage in PvP, so I'm not all that up to speed with DR. Something you, mostly, don't have to account for in PvE.

[RelaZ]

Thanks for another reply RelaZ.

Before you continue on reading here, I just want to stress that, my proposed spec design, was done with the systems that we currently have in the game, in mind.

As an example, I see that you really want PvP-talents to be removed.
If I designed the spec based on that the current PvP/PvE-separation was no longer a thing, this would automatically render my design pretty much useless and/or non-viable, in case they don't actually remove that system.

Nah, it wouldn't. Your design by itself makes itself non-viable in a few aspects. That's not due to PvP talents existing or not existing, because (as I'll get more into later) PvP talents cant fix the problems your design would bring.

As for some other things, we have varying opinions on a lot of things. Nothing wrong with that really. People prefer different things.
It's clear to me that you care much for PvP.

Of course I care about PvP a lot. Unfortunately you don't care at all if your suggestions would cause zero gain in PvP or would cause PvP to become almost unplayable or incredibly bad.

I can understand this. Keep in mind though that what I wrote regarding a macro was not a suggestion for a cursor-targeting function.
What I typed was [@player], and in this case, it would place the trap at your feet(it would make your trap work almost exactly like it did in the old days before we had any sort of ranged cast function for traps).

True, I thought you meant cursor. However, Ranged Survival is ranged, so placing it at your feet wouldn't be very beneficial. PS: I never knew why they removed the initial "place it 2 feet in front of yourself" mechanic in favor of the "place the trap inside of yourself" mechanic. Placing it inside of yourself feels more clunky to me.

But no matter really, I'm not against making it a target based ability. I just want it to essentially be(look) like the old Immolation Trap.
Just made to fit within the game today.
Also, like I said, an ability with a 1min CD, I wouldn't call much of a hazzle in regards to your "rotation" and fluidity.

Yeah, a 1min CD which you have to aim (and which is actually quite a big deal) will be a large hassle. Abilities with aiming rectangles have no place in ST rotations. It's extremely clunky and icky unless all you're doing is standing perfectly still.

Hunters in the past had several traps that dealt damage, traps that you could use in PvP as well, if you wanted/needed. Those traps had a shorter CD than 1min.
Which meant that you could use them more frequently than every minute.

A lot of classes have aimed abilities, especially for AoE purposes. If you don't like this design, it's just a subjective viewpoint based on a personal opinion. Now, don't get me wrong but, opinions vary a lot. Some(like me), have nothing against aimed abilities.

In MoP, i.e. the version of Survival that is essentially hailed as the best by almost the entire community, the only trap that was used for (AoE) damage was Explosive Trap (unglyphed), which as I said could be okay (but in general I disagree - but I could deal with it).

As far as traps go for hunters. Having to aim them, even those you would use for damage, was always a strong part of the core fantasy of the class in the past.
Granted that they, as time went by, took away more and more. Some that we now have again, through for example PvP talents. But that does not take away that a big part of the class fantasy of hunters, was the use of traps.
The old SV spec was no exception(before they pruned everything).

I'm not saying the use of trap should be removed, I'm saying having aimed traps in the DPS rotation is bad. Especially the ST rotation. And again, most people would probably agree with me (based on the design of MoP Survival which everyone loves so much).

I totally get why you would not like this, based on PvP.

But class/spec design cannot be based on a single piece of content that involves only part of the playerbase.
Using aimed traps in PvE(all types of PvE really), is not a big deal really.

This thought pattern is bad and dangerous. What you are doing is designing a class / spec for a single piece of content - PvE. You're treating PvP concerns as second class citizen concerns. What you're suggesting will essentially break the spec for most people in PvP. And if we're being honest I don't even think a majority of PvErs want to see aimed traps as part of the ST DPS rotation.

And as far as enemy players bunching up on a CC'd partner goes, isn't this exactly what makes for part of the challenge with PvP? That you have to make choices based on what enemy players decide to do as opposed to when you're fighting brainless NPCs?

No, when PvP devolves into people standing on top of eachother, thus making themselves essentially immune to CC, due to split AoE damage in ST rotations, PvP is just frustrating and not fun for most players. Instead it turns into a boring PvE DPS race.

This is a whole other topic really. Depending on how they would do it, yeah maybe.

But you can't create abilities/effects and expect them to be perfect for both PvE as well as PvP. These types of combat are way to different for that to be a thing.

You can't create abilities/effects without making them work well for both PvE and PvP. They did it fairly well in MoP, Cata and WotLK. Unfortunately, not for all specs of course (such as Cata Survival which was simply not played in PvP due to how badly designed it was, especially compared to MM).

I get this, I really do.
Although, they have designed all specs with a "base set" of abilities or effects in mind. And PvP talents are supposed to be something extra, that is an addition to the "base set".

Yet your proposal would require PvP talents to completely "fix" the base design. Which based on your assessment that PvP talents should just be something "small extra" should not be possible. Along with a myriad of other issues.

So, if you wouldn't have this defensive aspect(as on live, we currently do not). How do you survive now then?

Anyway, no, that's not you being forced. That is you, making a choice to use an ability for 1 purpose, out of 2 possible ones.

You don't survive. That's the entire point, and by using this ability you wouldn't survive either. But yes, it's a forced decision. If you don't understand this then idk what to say. It's not like you have any other option when your other stuff is on CD and you're about to die. You'll use it of course, but then you'll die afterwards anyway because of no counter momentum. Lose-Lose situation. It's better to implement something else that's not so clunky and which doesn't share a CD with our main CC trap.

Now, I want to add something here. I haven't mentioned much about how good of a defensive it would be. The idea, really, is that, the ice block you create from the trap, can absorb maybe 1 or 2 direct hits before it shatters. If it does not take the damage required to shatter it, it will stay up for(in this case) 8 seconds before it shatters automatically.

Also, it only protects you from any incoming attack/spell cast that comes from an enemy standing on the opposite side of the ice block, compared to where you are. The Ice block needs to be between you and the enemy who attacks you. Otherwise, it would do nothing.]

It's not intended to be an 8 second immunity.

So, I have no idea really, if it would ever be worth using the Freezing Trap as a defensive in any sort of high-end PvP. It might be better to always use it for CC.

One thought I had regarding some eventual PvP design/talent for this ability, was to add in a slow effect(slowing movement speed/attack speed as well as cast speed) on the enemy that shatters the ice block. For a set amount of time.

You already said it would break on some damage, I don't know why you're repeating yourself. I understood you didn't mean for it to be an 8 second immunity - and that you would have to actually stand behind it for it to be of use. With regards to other mechanics: I think the slow portion was baseline at some point after someone exited a Freezing Trap.

This may very well be the case. Though, if people accidentally hit the wrong hotkey or if they spam their hotkeys, that's not really a design issue.
And also, you wouldn't be able to hit the key once to cast the trap, and insta-activate it with a manual trigger if you happen to do a fast double tap on the hotkey.
The trap, like all others, would have a travel time, and a short arming time before you can trigger it(or anyone else).

Sure, I'm not saying it isn't the fault of the player - all I'm saying is this will undoubtedly happen, and people will be yelling and complaining and asking why Blizzard "are so stupid" as to put this mechanic in Freezing Trap and not in a new trap - and they'll be right, why bake this into Freezing Trap (which this has nothing in common with) and make it clunky instead of making it a separate ability, or making something else entirely.

Again, if this mechanic is not perfect for PvP. So be it.
You already now in-game, have a LOT of situations where certain things aren't perfect for every situation.

Yeah, it's certainly a good idea to design something that is straight up useless in other game modes on-top of being very clunky and counter (spec?) intuitive instead of adding something that's actually useful in multiple parts of the game and isn't clunky or counter-intuitive. You sound like a great game designer, I must say.

On a side note, the choice to add in separate PvP-talents, was one way to try to get around this problem.

I don't think you know why PvP talents were added, but I'll share what's the general view among PvPers as to the reason for why they were added: They were added because Legion was the second pruning expansion in a row, and for PvP to not go to complete trash without any depth PvP talents were added to at least try to keep some of it, it was a last ditch effort (with multiple large problems).

But the base talent "trees" you see for any spec in the game, they do not carry a single talent solely designed for PvP-purposes.

They are designed to have some sort of usefulness for all types of content.

No of course they don't take just PvP in mind. But at least previously (in MoP, when the system was initially introduced) all talents (and well, all abilities and passives really) were designed with all parts of the game in mind - not just PvE (without any regard for how useless or counter-intuitive/productive they'd be in PvP).

Again, if some of them aren't optimal for the exact type of content you're doing. That's something we just have to deal with.

Or something which is more useful in more scenarios of the game, less clunky and less counter-intuitive could be added instead.

Several of your suggestions for defensive effects/abilities have little to no use in, let's say raids.

Point out which and I'll explain to you how they, at the very least, don't make PvE worse. The only exception is Survival Tactics which could be incredibly OP for soaking mechanics.

Also, I know that you said that you don't want separate PvP talents in the game, but you could very well create a PvP talent(or some other type of set bonus or a bonus trait from w/e source), that changes part of how your Rapid Fire works. As an example, it could remove the AoE aspects of the ability, and make it focus even more on ST damage.

Again, I'm going to explain to you how that's a problem. Again, you can only have 3 active PvP talents at a time. This means that only the 3 absolute best ones will be picked. This means that if everything, from the base, is designed without PvP in mind, there will have to be far more than 3 PvP talents to "fix" the issues with the base spec. That means it's not fixing half the things, because you can't even pick them because you're out of options. So the conclusion, again, is that class designs need to take all aspects of the game into game - not just PvE and then think "yeah but you can fix that with PvP talents", because you can't.

So, make it a PvP talent then. This is the exact reason for why they created PvP-talents. For stuff that would be a lot more useful for those that engage in PvP. But it might have less use for PvE.

This would be overshadowed by so, so, so many other PvP talents that it would never be picked. It would be a dead talent. Remember the 3 PvP talent limit.

Not everything can be a baseline effect. Look at current specs and what they have in terms of baseline effects. It's the same thing there.

I don't know if you've noticed or been following, but people have been complaining for the last 2-3 expansions that Blizzard is cramming all sorts of stuff (core passives and abilities) that should be baseline into the talent trees.

I should probably add though that, if you look at the new base design I'm suggesting for Explosive Shot, combined with passive effects and/or talents that somehow enhances the ability. Having so many ways to give guaranteed procs on Lock and Load. You would essentially end up with more charges of Explosive Shot than you could make use of(within a certain window of time).

Maybe, maybe. But it doesn't really matter what it does exactly - what I want is the skill and satisfaction from the trap & L&L interaction.

The old design of Lock and Load that we used to have. That's not the design that it currently has.

Yes? And? Why does this matter? As long as you can slap on the trap interaction mechanic into L&L such that it still makes sense it, to me, doesn't matter what version of L&L is proposed. Personally I would just like this version of L&L back: https://mop-shoot.tauri.hu/?spell=56343.

Again, this is not what "being forced" means. If they were to create SV and include that tier. But they would remove the 2 other talents on that row so the only choice you could make, was that of Ever Burning. THAT, would be forcing players to pick something.

If you add something, and then tune it so it's the best (which will inevitably happen, because it always happens with all dps related talent rows) it's essentially a forced pick - unless you want to freely gimp yourself. Stop acting coy, you know very well that talent trees are a forced cookie cutter "pick whatever is best atm"-set if you want to be accepted in this game.

Now, as I don't engage in PvP, I have no idea really how often you would want to AoE.
But you do have the option to pick Ferocious Inspiration on that talent row which is based on an ability that deals instant damage. So, you would have much more control over when or if, you decide to AoE.

You never want to perform your AoE rotation in PvP (essentially), but if your ST rotation does AoE damage you will obviously be doing AoE. It's not to the point where if there's a talent that says "Does nothing" and one that says "adds AoE to your ST" people will pick the former - because again, people will pick whatever is best regardless of how clunky or non-clunky it might b.

Maybe this means, that for high-end PvP, then Ferocious Inspiration is the best talent on that row?

Again, in almost all environments except the most casual ones, people will be forced to pick what has the best numbers tuning.

Again, this spec is not solely designed with high-end PvP in mind.
(No spec should be).

I agree, and this spec is definitely not designed "soley with high-end PvP in mind", in fact it's designed completely without PvP in mind, at all. And that's a problem. All specs should be designed with all parts of the game in mind. It really shines through that you think PvPers are second class citizens and don't deserve to be designed around at all.

This is how all classes are designed today.

Besides, many(including myself), like this concept.

And really, based on what's best? Granted that this is how many thinks. But again, this is not a design problem. It's a perception problem(as in, based on the playerbase).

I think you'll find yourself in the minority. The complaints about throwing 912383 things that used to be baseline into the talent trees have been hated upon for 2-3 expansions now as I said earlier. But it's certainly more than a perception issue when your class/spec doesn't even play the same or similar from fight to fight a large portion of the time and the base of it it feels as empty as a bottle.

You simply cannot achieve perfect balance within this game. It's impossible. There will always be that one choice that is the BEST choice. In terms of performance.

If the devs were to start designing classes/specs based on performance and perfect balance alone, then we would really have a problem. Because, that, is how you effectively destroy the core design that makes the game as a whole.

I've never proposed they should design based on performance or balance, all I've said is they should design with all parts of the game in mind - something which you vehemetly detest because you want them to only design with PvE in mind - and then fix whatever issues that causes with PvP talents (which is A) not possible because Blizzard has a strong position not to separate PvP and PvE too much and B) not possible because there are only ever 3 PvP talents active at once).

Peoples opinions here, they vary a lot.

I hated the talent design of MoP and Wod.
I want talents to be based on your current spec and it's intended fantasy. I want them to further enhance it.

Yeah, ugh, we disagree. Vastly. Also, I think you're in a very small minority when it comes to late MoP Survival.

You cannot bring back SV as it used to be in let's say MoP, or WoD. Because the design philosophies back then were different from those they go by today. For all classes and specs.

The design philosophy should change, and I think the recent information from Blizzard and their recent hires makes it plausible that they're looking to make a big shift.

In the latest Dev Insight video, Ion talked about how they in the future might be taking a step or two back in terms of ability pruning and class fantasy, rather than spec fantasy. He also pointed out that, they largely intend to keep specs more focused. But they might bring back certain abilities that we used to have. Abilities that were baseline for the entire class.

What do you even mean class fantasy rather than spec fantasy? Sure they might have called the Legion design philosophy "class fantasy" but it most certainly was "spec fantasy" and he most certainly mentioned that they think they went too far. How far, well no one knows that. You have your interpretation and I and many others have ours. We'll see who's right. All I'm doing is pointing out what the holes with your design are given a holistic design that takes all parts of the game in mind and not just PvE.

That by no means, meant that they will go back on their decision to make talents focus on each perspective specialization rather than the design we had between MoP and WoD.

Just because Blizzard says something doesn't mean it's right, or the correct way forward, or that they won't change their opinion. There's a reason WoW is rapidly losing its entire community. Additionally, as I said before, that's just your interpretation fo what he said.

Now to the second point regarding Immolation Trap.
I liked the old Explosive Trap for AoE. I liked all traps really. But I also liked Immolation Trap for ST.
I designed it like this as, Immolation Trap would here be part of your baseline set of abilities. Allowing it to ignite any Tar it comes in contact with(would only be possible if an enemy that is currently burning, stands/steps in the Tar from the Tar Trap), it was my way of bringing in both Immolation Trap as well as Explosive Trap.

Well, I guess I'll change my mind and say that I think your original proposal would be a bad implementation of RSV and I instead think they should aim for something much closer to MoP Survival. The more I think about it the less I like Immolation Trap, and the more I think it and it's interactions would destroy the fluidity of the spec.

Well. PvP talents are currently a thing.
And I have designed this spec with that in mind. As I very much doubt that they will remove those with the next expansion.

Who knows what they decide to do with PvP-talents in future expansions? Maybe they will allow for more choices to be made at the same time?

The only thing regarding PvP-talents that I can say is that I doubt we will see them gone with the next expansion.

I wouldn't be so sure about them not removing them. I do however find it incredibly unlikely that they would allow for more choices given that they already reduced the amount of choices you can make going from Legion to BfA.

They hired the old Lead PvP Designer as Lead Class Designer - i.e. the guy who tried to save PvP by implementing PvP talents in the first place when Watcher wanted to prune the game even further. I think he'll probably realize that unifying PvP and PvE again is the best approach (which I'm sure was his initial plan as well in Legion until the pruning and the feedback from that forced him to act). Not completely unlikely.

Both yes and no really.
And besides, like I said before, when you design a spec, you have to take "casual" gameplay in mind as well.
You also have to account for new(er) players that are just leveling up. You have to account for players who are still far away from starting to raid or do dungeons, or do PvP. Yet alone, do high end M+/high end PvP or Mythic raiding.

Outside of PvP, most people would have little issue with the proposed design addition for the Freezing Trap.
For varying reasons…

So instead, why wouldn't it be a better idea to design something that wouldn't be non-functional in one part of the game, something which wouldn't be counter-intuitive and clunky (ps: it would be clunky in PvE too)?

I'm not, but it sounds like you mostly only care about making the spec perfect for those who engage in high-end PvP.
Now, I ofc don't have any specific numbers, but the amount of people who do that, it's not a very big number compared to everyone who is playing the game.

Of course, I want PvP to be good. But I, unlike you, take all parts of the game into consideration when I discuss class design. If something doesn't fly at all in one part of game? Well then you re-design it until you get something which works in all parts of the game. You have something that is useless and has a clear negative impact in one part of the game? You re-design it until you get something that everyone is happy with. And no, that's not as hard as you make it sound. You just have to be familiar with all parts of the game to be able to do it.

I couldn't really make the design suggestions I did based on that we wouldn't have for example PvP-talents. That would NOT be a realistic way to go at it.

So instead your propsal is "fix it with PvP talents", when I've very clearly pointed out that you can't fix this many things with PvP talents (limited to 3), additionally you can't fix small things with PvP talents (because they'll never get picked over more powerful talents) and you can't fix things which would cause too much of a disparency between PvP and PvE. So, the only conclusion is the base classes have to be designed with both PvP and PvE in mind.

I will just say this, outside of PvP, to be able to choose between using Freezing Trap to CC something or choose to trigger it manually so you can stand behind it and use it for protection, this would very much be a positive thing as in a lot(a lot, not all) of situations, you have little to no use for your Freezing Trap(not only talking raids here).

I'm not saying it doesn't have uses outside of PvP. What I am saying is why not implement something that is actually useful to everyone instead of something that you know is clunky (to PvErs as well, I can already foresee the nerdrages when people fat finger their Freezing Trap keybind), counter-intuitive to the whole mobility and fluidity theme of RSV.

It was a suggestion. If you find little use for that effect on anything but Black Arrow. Fair enough.

Maybe I should re-phrase. I don't find little use in it, I find that the mechanic would probably be very, grossly, overpowered given that these are things that we can (almost) instantly re-apply (with little cost) anyways.

[F Rm]

What do you even mean class fantasy rather than spec fantasy?

Sorry, that was a typo from my part. I meant the other way around.
He said that they are(probably) taking a step back from spec fantasy over/in favor of class fantasy in certain areas of class development.

if your suggestions would cause zero gain in PvP

This is often the case with many abilities or talents. For a lot of classes.
Some stuff, you have less use for in PvE. Some in PvP.

We can take Camouflage as an example. For raids, it's most of the time a useless talent(or with your suggestion, a useless baseline ability).
For PvP, and/or for open world(and more), it certainly have it's use.

or would cause PvP to become almost unplayable or incredibly bad.

The one thing that stood out the most for me on this topic, in regards to your feedback. Is what you said about the AoE-component to Rapid Fire(with Black Arrow).

Like you say, having no way to get around this in PvP, would ofc be very bad. You have any suggestion for how to fix it?
The design in itself(to be able to spread the BA DoT), could have a lot of use, and also would to many be a very fun addition for content that does not include high end PvP.

Regarding some other things you mentioned. Where you say that people would be forced to play with things.
You are right that, in some situations, certain mechanics/design aspects would "force" people to choose between what they use an ability/effect for.
But that's not actually a bad thing. You might not like that you have to choose. But it's still a choice.

As an example here, for PvP, having to choose between using your Freezing Trap for your own protection(as with the manual trigger function), or choose to use it to CC someone else. For PvP, sure, it's a choice you would have to make. For most other types of content, players would probably be very glad to be able to make such a choice. As the CC aspect of Freezing Trap, has less use in itself.

Moving on to your argument regarding placing traps. Traps, have always been a part of the hunter toolkit. The mechanics behind how you place them, and what you're able to do with them, have changed many times. But, they have always been a part of the class.

If you go back a few expansions, we had several traps, many of which you had to place manually, in the correct spot in order to make sure that an enemy steps in them. A lot of players weren't happy that they removed most of the trap toolkit during the pruning period.
How fun(or annoying) you find Traps to be, depends a lot on what type of content that you engage in. But they ARE very synonymous with the class and the fantasy.

PS: I never knew why they removed the initial "place it 2 feet in front of yourself" mechanic in favor of the "place the trap inside of yourself" mechanic. Placing it inside of yourself feels more clunky to me.

It was removed as a result of when they made it so that all traps could be placed from afar. We no longer had an option to "lay down" a trap in front of us. As all traps were now "ranged abilities".
It was a design change. We first got it with the Trap Launcher so you could manually choose if you wanted to place traps in front of you, like it used to work before. Or you could choose to activate the Trap Launcher, and you could then place traps from further away.

They later removed the Trap Launcher as many players complained about that it was like a toggled "buff" that always went away if you died, and you would have to manually activate it again in order for your traps to be placed at range. Which meant that if you died a lot, this became a incredibly annoying process.
They(devs) just decided to remove the melee placement aspect of traps altogether.

What you see now, is a new type of placement. Sure, it looks like you place the trap where you are. But it's still based on the new firing system of traps. And if you make a macro where you include [@player], the system/game will place the trap based on where it thinks your character is standing, at the time of using the trap.

Abilities with aiming rectangles have no place in ST rotations. It's extremely clunky and icky unless all you're doing is standing perfectly still.

It was a fairly large part of our playstyle in the past. Again, something that many players liked. While some others, did not.

Again, if we get the change so certain(not all) traps could be used with a target-based function in mind. I would be all for it.
Currently, we can't make macros for traps that include [@target]. I get why. But if they were to remove this restriction for one or maybe 2 specific traps just so we can retain the fantasy of using traps. Would that be a bad thing? IMO, no it wouldn't.

Like I said earlier, the Immolation Trap with my design, is meant to be the ranged SV equivalent to the live talent A Murder of Crows which the other 3 specs currently have as an option. Why? Because I think that AMoC, is mostly designed with the BM fantasy in mind. And to add in some variation, as traps were something more associated with SV, I decided to put in a trap.

If they design it to mechanically work like a targeted spell, I would not be against it.

I'm saying having aimed traps in the DPS rotation is bad. Especially the ST rotation. And again, most people would probably agree with me (based on the design of MoP Survival which everyone loves so much).

Damage-based traps that we had in the past was also a part of our "rotation". If you decided that they weren't worth using. That was your choice.

Many players(me included) did not like what they did with Survival in MoP. Mostly due to the new talent design.

And if we're being honest I don't even think a majority of PvErs want to see aimed traps as part of the ST DPS rotation.

I couldn't say either really. I based it on the fact that I've in the past seen a lot of players who asked for them to return certain traps to us to be part of the baseline toolkit. Including traps used for damage.

And again, an ability with a base 1min CD, is not something that is a part of your "rotation". It's an upper mid-range CD.
If you pick for example the Pre-Heat talent in my design, then yes, it has the potential to make Immolation Trap a part of your actual rotation.

Just because PvP would not "allow" you to always use the trap directly as it comes off CD, does not mean that it breaks the design concept. Sometimes, you will have to delay using certain abilities as it might not be the perfect moment to use it/them. This is already how the game works.

What you are doing is designing a class / spec for a single piece of content - PvE.

No, I'm not. You can very much use everything within this design within PvP content as well. But all of it you might not consider to be optimal for PvP. Same as, if you look on live atm, there are a lot of things that currently aren't, for PvP and/or PvE.

You can't create abilities/effects without making them work well for both PvE and PvP.

This depends on how you define "work well".

But again, I agree that automatic AoE damage that you cannot get around. Is not a very good thing for PvP. An easy fix, would be to design that spread function with CC in mind. So that it cannot apply to CC'd targets. Hard CC(Trap, Poly, Banish, and so on) that is. Roots and Freezes etc, are exceptions.

MoP, all talents (and well, all abilities and passives really) were designed with all parts of the game in mind - not just PvE

Narrow Escape

Wyvern Sting

Intimidation

Blink Strikes

Barrage (do we even need to get into the annoyances connected to the use of Barrage, in multiple types of content?).
You could use it, and you still can as it's still a part of the game.

Talents from the MoP design that, ofc you could use in for example raids and such. But they weren't exactly optimal choices for the most part.
Again, you had to make choices for what type of content you were engaging in. Some of them might not've been perfect for your prefered type. But they could still be used in there.

On a side note, Lynx Rush, that talent for hunters in MoP. Did it ignore CC'd targets? I don't remember.

In regards to your previous request to bring back several traps to be baseline, many of those traps see little use in e.g. PvE. Several traps would not even work in PvE due to bosses being immune. Does this mean that we shouldn't have them back at all? No.
But in referens to your proposition for guaranteed L&L procs when using traps, here we have a case of something that is a lot more useful in PvP rather than PvE.
I'm not saying that it would be bad for PvE. It would just be a less optimal effect.

But again, by all means, bring it(the guaranteed trigger) back somehow. I'm not against it.

something which you vehemetly detest because you want them to only design with PvE in mind

Not what I've said. Not at all.

it's designed completely without PvP in mind, at all. And that's a problem.

Completely? That's a VERY strong word.

Look at other specs in the game today, you will find several elements that aren't perfect for PvP. But can they still be used in PvP? Yes.

Yeah, it's certainly a good idea to design something that is straight up useless in other game modes on-top of being very clunky and counter (spec?) intuitive instead of adding something that's actually useful in multiple parts of the game and isn't clunky or counter-intuitive.

Useless? No not really.

Also, you could design the Freezing Trap manual trigger to only work if you yourself is actually standing beside it. Considering the benefit from it would require you to stand there anyway. And if you're not standing next to it, you can't trigger it manually.

The design philosophy should change,

Again, opinions vary a lot.

I did not create this thread to attack the overall design philosophy of WoW. I try to get them to give the old SV back, by making the spec fit within todays WoW.
Everyone will not think that it's perfect. I have no delusions about that.

Just because Blizzard says something doesn't mean it's right, or the correct way forward, or that they won't change their opinion. There's a reason WoW is rapidly losing its entire community.

Right or wrong, I'm not trying to attack their whole philosophy for game development.

All I'm doing is pointing out what the holes with your design are given a holistic design that takes all parts of the game in mind and not just PvE.

Yes, and your concern for the DoT spread mechanic for BA during Rapid Fire, I'm currently thinking of how this can change.

As for the other stuff in regards to for example, Immolation Trap and how you don't want a CD to be an aimed ability. Also, your arguments for the extra effect on Freezing Trap. These are mostly features that you may not like. But it's not like they will actually break the spec for PvP.
What they result in, is that you will have to make a choice on when to use them, and what to use them for.

The more I think about it the less I like Immolation Trap, and the more I think it and it's interactions would destroy the fluidity of the spec.

So, what did you think about the spec in the past when it was even more about traps than any of the hunters specs are currently?

I wouldn't be so sure about them not removing them.

I'm not sure. There are never any guarantees in terms of development for us.

Having said that, you got a source on anything here?

I think he'll probably realize that unifying PvP and PvE again is the best approach

We disagree on this.

Those types of gameplay are too different and it will always result in certain abilities/effects that will either be perfect for one side while being bad for the other side.
Or they would suck for both.

Or they will have to remove most of the flavor in terms of design, and take things even further than they already have.

(ps: it would be clunky in PvE too)?

Again, we disagree

I can very much see myself during an encounter where the CC aspect of the trap is not needed(temporarily or permanently), where I instead place the trap at a certain point in order to shield myself from an incoming attack, or for an extra boost to damage.

You might not like the design, but that does not mean that it doesn't work. It does not mean that the ability would now break the game for you.

If something doesn't fly at all in one part of game? Well then you re-design it until you get something which works in all parts of the game.

Again, you can still use it for that. You might decide that it isn't worth it.

Or if it's because you don't like having to choose between the two. Many others would…

I don't find little use in it, I find that the mechanic would probably be very, grossly, overpowered given that these are things that we can (almost) instantly re-apply (with little cost) anyways.

This might very well have been the case.

It would also depend on what the actual negative effects that you receive would be like.

Again, it was just a suggestion.

[F Rm]

Doesn't matter what the spread radius is. People aren't stupid. They'll just start stacking whenever they see you popping Rapid Fire because they know they'll be immune to CC then (from you breaking it with automatic AoE damage).

Based on this feedback, I decided to add something to the design that would benefit both PvE as well as PvP.

It's in the original post but I'll provide the additional part here below:

Edit: Due to some recent feedback, I've been thinking of a solution that would be best for both PvE as well as PvP, in regards to the DoT-spread mechanic/interaction between Explosive Shot and Black Arrow(during Rapid Fire). For PvE, this has potential to be very rewarding and fun at the same time.

But, for PvP, you wouldn't want to have automatic AoE built into your ST "rotation".

Now, there are a few possible solutions to this issue.
And the one I've come up with that feels rewarding for players that engage in PvE as well as for those in PvP, is this:

When in instanced PvP, your Explosive Shot will no longer be able to automatically spread any periodic damage effect caused by Black Arrow onto other nearby enemies. Instead, you now have an additional passive effect that is always active, regardless of if your Rapid Fire is or isn't.
That effect is as follows:
If your Black Arrow is at any time dispelled or otherwise removed from an enemy target, you will instantly gain a free charge of Black Arrow.
Note: This is not a CD reset mechanic. This works like Lock and Load does for Explosive Shot, that it would add an extra charge of Black Arrow on top of what you already have.

[F Rm]

Changed the design of the level 100-talent: Resourcefulness

It no longer grants you a base bonus to damage when you have manually triggered Freezing Trap and are standing next to it.

Instead some other additions have been included in the design. This was done based on feedback a while ago.

Resourcefulness - Reduces the cooldown of all traps and Black Arrow by 20%. Your Freezing Trap and Tar Trap both have a 100% chance to proc Lock & Load when triggered.

Freezing Trap when triggered manually can now withstand 100% more incoming damage before shattering.

When an enemy breaks free from your Freezing Trap, they will take an additional 10% damage from all sources for the next X seconds.

Critical hits from Immolation Trap causes an additional X% damage to the affected target.

The CD reduction is still there for all traps + Black Arrow. Also, the increased durability of the manually triggered Freezing Trap is still here. But the rest of it is new.
Many have asked for the guaranteed procs for Lock & Load, hence why that's now included.

[tru]

Keep the melee spec give us back a playstyle like wod sv call it whatever and leave it alone.

[gd8]

ranged survival was always barely distinguishable from MM, they should have just made BM the melee spec and scrapped old survival entirely giving MM whatever little scraps of uniqueness it had. hunters could easily be a 2 spec class, absolutely no reason to bring it back as a 4th spec.

[Bepples]

ranged survival was always barely distinguishable from MM

Only if you were clueless about Hunters. Go back to your Warrior.

[gd8]

Only if you were clueless about Hunters. Go back to your Warrior.

been playing a hunter since vanilla aside from MoP and WoD, it's not different enough to be its own spec and I'm glad it's gone

[Niroshi]

If they were to just let us use the OG Explosive Shot on MM the playstyle would be fairly close.

[F Rm]

Keep the melee spec give us back a playstyle like wod sv call it whatever and leave it alone.

This post is not about removing current melee SV.

Regarding WoD SV, I wouldn't actually oppose playing that version of RSV again. Though, based on the current game, that design cannot simply be brought back as it was.
No version of the old SV spec could.

The talent trees from WotLK + Cataclysm aren't in the game anymore. The devs said that this type of talent design wasn't going to hold up through a vast number of expansions. It wasn't a sustainable systems-design.

The generalized talent-design from MoP/WoD is also gone. In favor of more focused talents that have ties to your chosen spec.
Whether you like this change or not, is up to you.
I might not like all specific talents that we have in WoW today, but the general design of having talents focus on your chosen spec, is something that I do like.

The changes to systems and general spec design that we've seen in the later expansions and how they affect what makes for a specialization, is the very reason as to why I did not simply copy/paste an old version of SV in here.

ranged survival was always barely distinguishable from MM, they should have just made BM the melee spec and scrapped old survival entirely giving MM whatever little scraps of uniqueness it had. hunters could easily be a 2 spec class, absolutely no reason to bring it back as a 4th spec.

Not entirely sure what you're basing this statement on but I would argue that to be objectively false.

You could sort of argue this for the Vanilla-TBC area of specs. But anything after that, this argument would no longer hold up.

And besides, it doesn't really matter what similarities or differences there were to specs in the past. The only thing that matters, is how the Hunter specs are designed today and what the old SV could be turned into in order to make it work in the current game. Followed by then looking at any differences/similarities to the current designs, side-by-side.

Not sure how much of my suggestions that you read but I doubt you can say that they would make for a spec that would be too similar to the current MM.

been playing a hunter since vanilla aside from MoP and WoD, it's not different enough to be its own spec and I'm glad it's gone

Again, not sure what you're looking at with this statement.

One spec(MM) was designed to focus on instant damage and burst. While the other(SV) was about managing DoTs and procs, with little burst-potential at all really.

Sure, both specs were ranged specs with Focus as a resource-system. But once you go deeper into their designs than that, you will start to see the differences.

If they were to just let us use the OG Explosive Shot on MM the playstyle would be fairly close.

Technically yes, it would cause MM to be somewhat closer to the old SV spec. But I still wouldn't say that this would allow for MM to work similarly to that of the old SV.

I can only speak for myself ofc. But I'm after a design that allows for a playstyle that embraces the old theme/fantasy of the old SV spec.
One that focuses on poisons/venom and explosives along with enhanced Traps etc. Mechanically, a playstyle that let's us deal damage through DoTs rather than focusing on instant damage and high burst.

[gd8]

Again, not sure what you're looking at with this statement.

One spec(MM) was designed to focus on instant damage and burst. While the other(SV) was about managing DoTs and procs, with little burst-potential at all really.

Sure, both specs were ranged specs with Focus as a resource-system. But once you go deeper into their designs than that, you will start to see the differences.

thematically speaking they are not distuingishable enough to be separate specs. old survival didn't even have a solid theme that made sense

[Bepples]

been playing a hunter since vanilla aside from MoP and WoD, it's not different enough to be its own spec and I'm glad it's gone

A) I don't believe you
B) Even if that were true, that just speaks to your own failings in understanding the class despite allegedly playing it for so long

How are Arms and Fury different enough to be different specs but not Marksmanship or Survival? What about Affliction and Destruction?

If they were to just let us use the OG Explosive Shot on MM the playstyle would be fairly close.

Not even close. Several crucial elements of ranged Survival would still be missing and several incompatible elements of Marksmanship would still be present.

thematically speaking they are not distuingishable enough to be separate specs. old survival didn't even have a solid theme that made sense

Moving the goalposts. Nevertheless, the thematic difference was that Survival was the opportunist that focused on augmenting projectiles (e.g. with explosives and poisons) while MM was the sharpshooter/sniper that focused more on the raw quality of the shooting. Those are absolutely different-enough concepts to be different specs. We shouldn't have to be handholding you every step of the way on this. Stop using your own ignorance of the class as a platform for an argument. It won't work.

Now, if you want to go further with this dead-end argument and claim that what I described was not distinguishable enough, I invite you to explain to me how it's fair, sensible, and consistent with respect to standards of spec differentiation why we can apparently have THIRTEEN fully-distinct melee weapon user specs in the game without a problem at all yet apparently having more than ONE spec focused around ranged weapons (because, let's be honest: BM hardly counts) is too much. Draw particular attentions to Warlocks, Mages, Rogues, and Warriors and explain how you aren't holding an enormous double-standard on this issue.

[Devilyaki]

So basically mm+bm mix. Not a fan. Current survival is perfect, good thing ranged surv was scrapped.

I know it's fun to create fan fiction so I can see where you are coming from, but survival will never be ranged again. Its time to move on.

Current sv goes against everything a hunter should be, it is the single worst thing they have done to a class ever.