Why exactly are people so anti-LFR?

[tylenol]

Thank god those who are against it don't run large companies that thrive off casuals (as WoW has since vanilla), go check WoD's numbers, they basically made running LFR pointless and while it wasn't the sole cause, I'm sure it contributed to the chaos that followed

[Relapses]

Wildstar caters to the same players bfa does.. it was a game designed around grinding..

I would argue bfa only caters to hardcores. The amount of time you spend just grinding currencies is absurd.

Alright dude, this is just ridiculous now. WildStar went bankrupt because of shit like this. WildStar's failure is proof that "hardcore MMO" appeals to a demographic that is entirely unprofitable. Classic's recent success isn't proof that Blizzard should undo all of the QoL features in the 15-years since it was relevant as the common conflation is that people like Classic because it lacks these features and not simply because they're interested in a version of WoW that has otherwise been off limits. Sure, some players might like that but again, that fraction of the playerbase -- while represented well on forums like this -- doesn't make up the vast majority.

[Malikath]

-bullshit-

you fucking realize you just proved his point right?
wildstar promoted itself, and sold well, as a raid focused MMORPG.
what it turned out to be was a open-world casual focused MMORPG with heavy korean roots in it's design as most of the actual content was just grinding to be able to do the raids, which is exactly what WoW has become.
lie, bullshit, and pretend all you want, facts are facts and you can't bullshit people forever.

[Relapses]

you fucking realize you just proved his point right?
wildstar promoted itself, and sold well, as a raid focused MMORPG.
what it turned out to be was a open-world casual focused MMORPG with heavy korean roots in it's design as most of the actual content was just grinding to be able to do the raids, which is exactly what WoW has become.
lie, bullshit, and pretend all you want, facts are facts and you can't bullshit people forever.

Did you... did you just imply that WildStar's failure was due to it being too casual-focused? Are we speaking the same language here? Hello?

[Wingspan]

Uh, that's a pretty bold statement to make without any substantiating proof. I'd argue it's the power of gear that's the root of all evil in game design and if you think that Blizzard would somehow be able to balance three entirely self-contained versions of gear without any negative overlap I have some oceanfront property in Arizona that you may be interested in.

The power of the gear is what causes the gear envy in the first place, so we basically agree there (because really, who has gear envy over gear that’s considered crappy?).

Balancing the gear sets would be no worse than anything they have ever done because the sets basically would not function when out of their element. In a way, it would be easier to balance, because they would not have to worry about gear gained in one activity (like questing) affecting another (like raiding).

It could flow like this:

All 3 sets have identical stats for a starting point (Blue/Green quality).

All 3 have bonuses (stats, damage or healing percentages, or unique powers) that only function in their element.

So a Mythic raider in Mythic Raid gear hits the open world and he is effectively in Blue/Green quality items... just as a maxed out World Quester stepping into a raid would be. This would actually allow world content to be much harder in spots than it is... because you could create an actual progression path of power in the open world (elites, mini bosses and full on bosses). And the bosses could easily be designed to be impossible to bring down without the powerful world gear, so it would limit shortcuts.

All sets could be gained by more “traditional” means. PvE gear from drops... World gear from quests and rep grinds... and PvP gear from vendor purchases (which people seem to prefer).

[Relapses]

The power of the gear is what causes the gear envy in the first place, so we basically agree there (because really, who has gear envy over gear that’s considered crappy?).

Balancing the gear sets would be no worse than anything they have ever done because the sets basically would not function when out of their element. It could flow like this:

All 3 sets have identical stats for a starting point (the base... Blue/Green quality).

All 3 have bonuses (stats, damage or healing percentages, or unique powers) that only function in their element.

So a Mythic raider in Mythic Raid gear hits the open world and he is effectively in Blue/Green quality items... just as a maxed out World Quester stepping into a raid would be. This would actually allow world content to be much harder in spots than it is... because you could create an actual progression path of power in the open world (elites, mini bosses and full on bosses). And the bosses could easily be designed to be impossible to bring down without the powerful world gear, so it would limit shortcuts.

All sets could be gained by more “traditional” means. PvE gear from drops... World gear from quests and rep grinds... and PvP gear from vendor purchases (which people seem to prefer).

You've never been able to get a full set of gear from world content in the past, why would they start now? And if the world content is easier and provides the same gear, wouldn't it directly compete with Mythic? Effectively now you have players at odds with one another over the type of content they prefer... I can only see something like that further fracturing the playbase. I'm fine with PvP being it's own thing but if they bring back the TBC model where it was possible to grind gear better than what drops in raids then I can see that also fragmenting the playerbase. What's so wrong with the current system that adding something like this would somehow improve the situation?

All this to say that what you're suggesting is a bad solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

[Wingspan]

You've never been able to get a full set of gear from world content in the past, why would they start now? And if the world content is easier and provides the same gear, wouldn't it directly compete with Mythic? Effectively now you have players at odds with one another over the type of content they prefer... I can only see something like that further fracturing the playbase. I'm fine with PvP being it's own thing but if they bring back the TBC model where it was possible to grind gear better than what drops in raids then I can see that also fragmenting the playerbase. What's so wrong with the current system that adding something like would somehow improve the situation?

All this to say that what you're suggesting is a bad solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

The problem that exists is that everyone has totally different opinions on what activities justify “good” gear. The majority of it stems from Raiders or Mythic+ players who do not like feeling that their efforts are devalued when someone does something like LFR or a quest and gets an epic. This solves that because such an epic is now meaningless in Instanced play. It also solves the issue where people hate needing to PvP for PvE gear or vice-versa. It can even prevent massive item inflation if they were to do it correctly.



World or PvP gear would not compete with Mythic in any way. In fact, the world or PvP gear taken into a raid would be less effective than its ever been.

Raiders would have zero (real) reasons to be angry about world gear because it would not be required for raid progression in any way (barely usable in fact). World players would have gear that allowed them to be bad asses in the place where they spend the most time (the world).

This really should not divide the players anymore than they already are, since all the same options are open for everyone.

Obviously, I’m not suggesting that Bliz is doing this, but they really should do something like it. We already had 2 gear sets in the past and that was reasonably successful... I’m sure they can refine the system a bit and do 3.

[Relapses]

It does not compete with Mythic in any way. In fact, the world gear taken into a raid would be less effective than its ever been.

Raiders would have zero (real) reasons to be angry about world gear because it would not be required for raid progression in any way. Not only would it not be required, it would be more of a penalty. World players would have gear that allowed them to be bad asses in the place where they spend the most time (the world).

I apologize, I misinterpreted your idea. You want gear that is specific for each type of content. This is an equally terrible idea but for different reasons:

a.) If Blizzard wishes to continue telling the story through raids having the best world content gear in the world won't matter if you want to experience that content firsthand (and who wouldn't?)
b.) This incorrectly assumes that people who do world content do not like to raid; or vice versa
c.) If you are the kind of player who likes to do a little bit of everything now you have to carry three different sets of gear: One for world content, one for raiding and one for PvP. In a game where one of the biggest complaints is bloat, this seems extraneous at best

I'll give credit where credit's due, this is an idea for an alternative to the LFR but I (personally) don't think compartmentalizing the game into three separate versions of endgame content will help matters. As I said before, it would serve mostly to fracture an already pretty fractured playerbase.

[Daffan]

I think every MMO company wants to discover the gold. The gold being how to make endgame for casuals.
I dont think Blizzard made LFR "boring" on purpose to make people want to actual raid.

Dont know man, everything on this topic is very complex.

What is "endgame" for a casual? Good gear? We cant simply give good gear in easy content.
Is even "hard" content for casuals possible?

Could a casual endgame be a cosmetic pursuit? Maybe

The idea of good gear doesn't even make sense for casuals because they'l just replace it with the next easy source of good gear.

There's just no value in the idea of gear, it's not really a draw like it used to be.

[Animron]

I would rather see looking for raid tool being added for ALL difficulties. Like looking for Normal raid, looking for Mythic raid and offcourse looking for mythic + dungeons. It is stupid that i have to search for players and then being kicked for playing a "wrong" spec etc.

[Wingspan]

I apologize, I misinterpreted your idea. You want gear that is specific for each type of content. This is an equally terrible idea but for different reasons:

a.) If Blizzard wishes to continue telling the story through raids having the best world content gear in the world won't matter if you want to experience that content firsthand (and who wouldn't?)
b.) This incorrectly assumes that people who do world content do not like to raid; or vice versa
c.) If you are the kind of player who likes to do a little bit of everything now you have to carry three different sets of gear: One for world content, one for raiding and one for PvP. In a game where one of the biggest complaints is bloat, this seems extraneous at best

I'll give credit where credit's due, this is an idea for an alternative to the LFR but I (personally) don't think compartmentalizing the game into three separate versions of endgame content will help matters. As I said before, it would serve mostly to fracture an already pretty fractured playerbase.

Counter points:

A) Something like LFR would not need to be removed in this system because it could now grant the exact kind of gear that a lot of modern raiders want it to... terrible “starter” gear (the equivalent of greens and blues). That way people wanting to see the raid story can do so. And if they want to move up through other difficulties, awesome... but if not, they can truly progress in whatever field that they want to.

B) Not at all. But most people do have a favorite aspect of the game. And nothing here would prevent people from doing anything that they already do. It rewards it in fact.

C) Bloat is a legit problem but not insurmountable. They could monkey with the interface a bit and make it so that all 3 sets of gear are being “worn” at the same time (so not in inventory), but they only activate when in their element.

There already are three separate versions of content (and almost always has been), so I see no harm in fleshing it out. It could actually help to refine the communities involved. Some raiders hate when they feel forced to do trivial quests required for their progression... this eliminates that, while rewarding them with world gear if they actually want to join the world and quest. The crossover requirements for PvP to PvE has been a matter of contention for years... this addresses that too.

This way everything gets to be rewarding but in ways that do not interfere with others play styles. And people who want to do all 3 can still do all 3 if they want and probably be rewarded better for doing so.

[Fred Skinner]

a.) If Blizzard wishes to continue telling the story through raids having the best world content gear in the world won't matter if you want to experience that content firsthand (and who wouldn't?)

Probably the story should be disconnected from raids then.

b.) This incorrectly assumes that people who do world content do not like to raid; or vice versa

The other way around it is bad to force everyone into raids just to see the end of a story. Or into dungeons.

c.) If you are the kind of player who likes to do a little bit of everything now you have to carry three different sets of gear: One for world content, one for raiding and one for PvP. In a game where one of the biggest complaints is bloat, this seems extraneous at best[/indent]

This could be handled by a convenient game system which allows you to switch gear easily. Also, gear could not take bag space anymore.

I'll give credit where credit's due, this is an idea for an alternative to the LFR but I (personally) don't think compartmentalizing the game into three separate versions of endgame content will help matters. As I said before, it would serve mostly to fracture an already pretty fractured playerbase.

Well, if i wanted to see the raid content, i would love to be able to do it solo, as i had no queue time. Also, i could play it without having no chance to get into it if it was outside of prime time. In my realm pool, LFR does not open anymore as long it is not evening or weekend.

There could also be different difficulties in a solo mode, and real character progression. Contrary to large matchmade groups, a solo player had a vital interest to get the content done.

[Wolfrick]

LFR... is one of the most.... anti social System that have been introduced to world of warcraft...


been here since 2004... and thanks to LFR.... so much of the game "social" part has gone off to become unimportant.


Try out Classic.... its incredible how much people speak and talk and interact..... its a real MMORPG....


PS: I know "push a button and get done" everyone should want that.... but not in a game.... why do you play a game... if you can just "one button push... and you win"....


PSS: if it where up to me I would remove LFR and LFG from Current wow.... since its so anti social

[kaminaris]

LFR... is one of the most.... anti social System that have been introduced to world of warcraft...

Its the only social system for people who don't do organized content.

been here since 2004... and thanks to LFR.... so much of the game "social" part has gone off to become unimportant.

Has nothing to with LFR

Try out Classic.... its incredible how much people speak and talk and interact..... its a real MMORPG....

Played classic, exact same thing as in retail. I do speak in groups, never had any problems with socializing. I dare to say retail has more social interaction because of how easy is to form a group.

PS: I know "push a button and get done" everyone should want that.... but not in a game.... why do you play a game... if you can just "one button push... and you win"....
PSS: if it where up to me I would remove LFR and LFG from Current wow.... since its so anti social

Lets make it clear, if blizzard followed your advice on how WoW should be, they would go bankrupt and WoW would be no more.

[Daffan]

You overestimate the typical casual player I think. Easy accessibility to gear and content is important if you play just a few weeks or months a year or just a couple of times a week. Your post implies that the kind of player who was around for Sunwell has much of anything to do with the player of today. I don't believe they do. You may hate it but the game is firmly catering to part-time players who want to keep up without logging on every day or even every week. Whatever it's original purpose was LFR fits precisely into the mold of that sort of player.

I used to think I was something of a minority in that...I think that no longer. Dedicated raiders and every day players while they rule here in this little echo chamber are the exception rather than the rule in other, larger communities. The design and all the rest of it points directly to very casual players. World quests aren't truly much of a problem if you're only logging on for a few hours on weekends. Neither is grinding out rep. That comes easily enough if you're patient. I rarely play more than twice a week and while I wasn't even close to having flying when everyone else was pursuing it I have it now and most reputations that I need are done to the extent they need to be.

The game is not for the hardcore any longer except for PVP, high M+ keys and Mythic raiding.

Easy accessibility to gear does not automatically work in favor of player retention, it can be argued it works just the opposite.

The devaluation of time and effort is a key reason people don't care to stick around, there's no reason too.

[SirCowdog]

Basically, just let everyone excel at what they want to and then no one in a raid should ever be weeping because some perceived “scrub” is wearing their awesome raid gear.

Sadly that would never work. Why? Because too many raiders only want better gear so they can shit on everyone who doesn't have the gear. Both socially and directly, they want better gear so they can use it to lord over other people.

Take that away by making their uber-super-ultra-shiny-I'm-better-than-you only good in raids, so that no one cares if they have it, and you'll see a stream of tears and complaints that will never end. I mean, look at all the people who already cry about the simple existence of LFR. As though just by existing, LFR hurts their accomplishments. What a joke!

[Daffan]

Thank god those who are against it don't run large companies that thrive off casuals (as WoW has since vanilla), go check WoD's numbers, they basically made running LFR pointless and while it wasn't the sole cause, I'm sure it contributed to the chaos that followed

Ain't LFR pointless now since the gear gets replaced by welfare anyway?

[Relapses]

Ain't LFR pointless now since the gear gets replaced by welfare anyway?

...what? Are we back to pretending the only reason players use the LFR is for gear? Dude. You just set the thread back another 12 pages!

[Daffan]

...what? Are we back to pretending the only reason players use the LFR is for gear? Dude. You just set the thread back another 12 pages!

Imagine actually doing LFR for the "fun"

[Relapses]

Imagine actually doing LFR for the "fun"

Blizzard tells stories through raids. As long as they keep doing that people are gonna be interested in it.