Why are stats so big again?

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

They squished things to make it so they could pump them back up again... so they'll squish them once more so we can have a noticeable boost between tiers like we're sue to... yes, this doesn't make much sense overall.

It kind of does it's and expandable system... Making your code expanadable and easy to edit is kind of like a good thing.

[Tehterokkar]

Not what I have said at all. I want numbers to be big. I want them to stay big. But they grow to a point where they become too big for the system to handle, so they have to squish them. So why squish them only to blow them up in the same expansion again? At least go slow so you don't have to squish them every expansion.

So stop pretending that I have said things that I haven't or leave.

Computers don't care about size of numbers in their calculations. They care about the amount of calculations. Also they fixed the 32-bit size issue in WoD after they started running into the 2.4billion issue in SoO bosses(notice how bosses like Thok and Garrosh heal during the fight?). Now they run the 64-bit size and they will realistically never run into the same issue ever.

[Osmeric]

The purpose of a stat squish isn't to ensure the numbers stay small, it's to provide plenty of space for them to rapidly increase again.

[Cracked]

No one did that in WotLK. No one was running naxx to gear people because they were doing easy heroic dungeons or PVP to get naxx 25 level gear. Yes, the PVP gear was slightly worse because of a dead stat, but it wasn't enough worse to stop you from clearing Ulduar, and between that and the badge gear it was easy enough to get adequate gear on off nights. My guild never once did Naxx after Ulduar came out for actual gear.

Even then you could say they did it with the QD badge vendor and MrT in 2.4.

Eh, ToGC was still ran a few months after ICC opened and clearly Ulduar was ran during ToGC since that raid was so short and didn't have that much gear potential & bis trinkets still came from Ulduar in many cases.

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The purpose of a stat squish isn't to ensure the numbers stay small, it's to provide plenty of space for them to rapidly increase again.

Well the issue is that while in say TBC dungeon blues to last raid tier was around 100% stat increase, in BFA it's already 250% 2 tiers in.

[Malikath]

No one did that in WotLK. No one was running naxx to gear people because they were doing easy heroic dungeons or PVP to get naxx 25 level gear. Yes, the PVP gear was slightly worse because of a dead stat, but it wasn't enough worse to stop you from clearing Ulduar, and between that and the badge gear it was easy enough to get adequate gear on off nights. My guild never once did Naxx after Ulduar came out for actual gear.

Even then you could say they did it with the QD badge vendor and MrT in 2.4.

do you mean the ToGC dungeon? yeah, that's where catch-ups began along with the first time reputation with a power-progression related faction was strictly obtainable through dailies.
both are thing's i've been critical of.

but if you're trying to assert that the wrath launch dungeon's gear was as good as naxx25 i'm going to laugh at you.

and no, you can't because badges were a more determinate reward system distinct from RNG drops.
it has nothing to do with characters who are either done with and over-powering previously relevant content running alts and newer members as guild-activity.
because said activity persisted despite their use in TBC and wrath, even if your guild didn't personally do it it was the fastest way to get a character enough quality gear to be useful in latter tier raiding.
and yes they added resil to pvp gear so a T2 wouldn't happen again where easily-obtainable PVP gear would end-up being better then PVE gear in PVE.

[Osmeric]

Well the issue is that while in say TBC dungeon blues to last raid tier was around 100% stat increase, in BFA it's already 250% 2 tiers in.

Right. Stat squishing is now a proven tech, so they can go wild.

[Relapses]

not at all, but if you wanna assert that the cataclysm model of LFR assisted catch-up is more-liked, more-popular, or in anyway good for the game i can point to the fact that retail's playerbase is all but dead now that classic came out to assert that the older system of guild-runs was more popular and helped improve player involvement in their guild's activity which led to the core component of what kept people in the game, their guild community.

without that all guilds became were perks then we saw the creation of super-massive guilds which recruited as many casuals as possible to feed gold off of due to the ghost-tax perk.

also, this might surprise you but all the attunements in WoW were intended to be done either through solo quests or just the dungeons you would be doing to gear-up for that content, so again you have to exaggerate to have anything to bitch about so you can act like you have an argument.

you did BRD ONCE for the MC attunement, you didn't even need to go that far off from the typical run to smelt dark iron ore.
for the other atunemnts you either did solo endgame quests or fucking item turn-ins.

so yeah, you are making a mountain out of a mole-hill when you bitch about attunements, cause they weren't hard or fucking time-gating.


also, your assertion that retail is alive in any real function doesn't seem to be backed-up by anything, classic killed it at launch on all external sites and no one's cared about BFA since.
so no, those witless idiots drove off the rest of the player-base with their demands, and they didn't have the right to do that to begin with.

You do realize that Classic wouldn't exist right now if there weren't people still playing retail, right? And when your entire argument is based on the completely unsubstantiated claim that "retail is dead" there really doesn't seem to be much of value to be gleamed from your viewpoint here. Continue being salty that some people like things you don't like. There is no Classic revolution, both games serve their own individual purposes and it is possible for them to coexist without cannibalizing one another.

[tikcol]

4 difficulties per tier + titanforge that's what happened

[Raugnaut]

Then why squish them?

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No. It's not natural. They are the ones who determine what stats are on the gear. If it was natural then we would have seen the same rise in stats before. Stats didn't go from 30 to 1500 in TBC, or Wrath, or any other expansion.

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Not what I have said at all. I want numbers to be big. I want them to stay big. But they grow to a point where they become too big for the system to handle, so they have to squish them. So why squish them only to blow them up in the same expansion again? At least go slow so you don't have to squish them every expansion.

So stop pretending that I have said things that I haven't or leave.

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I really don't get what you are talking about. This wasn't a problem for the first ten years of WoW.

So, there are a few things with this expansion.

First - Secondary stats (Because it turns out that's part of what lead to such high damage growth between tiers) was completely removed from 3 pieces of gear - Helm, Chest, and Shoulders. Note that the Chest(And pants) tended to have the largest distribution of stats in previous expansions, with helms/shoulders having second highest distribution - This has actually done a lot to curb DPS growth with each patch, along with Blizzard greatly decreasing the value of primary stat.

And damage done has ALWAYS been the reason for the squish, not player health.

[valax]

Wasn't there a stat squish right in BFA? I just reached 120 and got some benthic gear and my stats are as high as 1500 stamina on some pieces. What the fuck are they doing? Wouldn't they need another stat squish again right at the beginning of the next expansion? Why are they even doing this?

welcome to retail wow , where everything has to be resetted to the initial point or all goes to shit

[Fayolynn]

Because of the way raid gear scales.

It's not really a thing I think they can ever fix if they want to make the gear from each raid more important than the gear from the previous raid.

They can fix it by going away from the "every one should get every" mentality. The issue isn't raid gear, the issue is 4 tiers of raid gear.

Compare Vanilla T1 and T3 head pieces for the mage sets.

https://classic.wowhead.com/item=16795/arcanist-crown
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=224...stfire-circlet

Upgrading from T1 to T3 you go from...
27 to 23 Int - 15% loss
16 to 22 Stam - 27% gain



Now compare T4 and T6

https://www.wowhead.com/item=29076/collar-of-the-aldor
https://www.wowhead.com/item=31056/cowl-of-the-tempest

Upgrading from T4 to T6 you go from...
16 to 20 Int - 20% gain
26 to 25 Stam - 4% loss

Finally compare Uldir and Palace of Eternity Azerite Pieces

https://www.wowhead.com/item=160616/...onus=4822:1477
https://ptr.wowhead.com/item=168336/...onus=4822:1487

That upgrade nets you makes you go from...
472 to 826 int - 94% increase
818 to 1551 Stam - 89% increase

And there is still a raid tier to go.... The issue isn't raid gear its that each raid has 4 tiers so this expansion has effectively 12 (Soon to be 16) tiers of gear that need to feel like upgrades. Add warforging onto of that and its a complete fucking mess that means we will just keep getting stat squishes every expansion or two.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Wait what? Did you play Legion?
Don't see how you can think the numbers are big after Legion.
Take a look at this and you'll see the difference.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/17

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And there is still a raid tier to go.... The issue isn't raid gear its that each raid has 4 tiers so this expansion has effectively 12 (Soon to be 16) tiers of gear that need to feel like upgrades. Add warforging onto of that and its a complete fucking mess that means we will just keep getting stat squishes every expansion or two.

You are 100 percent right, but using Classic and TBC gear is not helping you make your point.
There was no concrete stat budget at that point. There were items that were from dungeons that were better than items from raids.
That doesn't happen any more.

Would be best to compare it to Cata and onwards.
If you choose to do so, I'd actually be interested.
Before Legion, I do feel like the power curve was much much less.

I also agree that the answer is less raid difficulties for sure.

I'd like to see Heroic and "max level normal" removed from dungeons. Only the leveling versions, then mythic only with Mythic+.
For raids, remove two difficulties.
I'd prefer LFR and Heroic, but either way, there should be one "easy" flexible difficulty, and one Hard progression fixed size difficulty.

LFR has no purpose any more, but if we have to placate that crowd in order to make this happen, I'm willing to do it as long as they remove certain features like getting buffs when you wipe.

Either way, that should free up at least 30 item levels, right?
Could be 45 depending how they do it.

EX
Leveling dungeons at 119 or higher are 280
World content is 300-330 depending on quality of world quest.
Mythic dungeons are 340.
Normal raid is 355.
Mythic raid is 370.

The problem comes in with Mythic+
Typically Mythic+ goes from
0 - 340
2
3 - 345
4
5 - 350
6
7 - 355
8
9 - 360
10 - 365
Chest 375.

Obviously can not work given this current situation.
So they would have to change how M+ works too in order to make this happen.

[Misuteri]

I think it’s so interesting looking at tier sets for Classic; D1, D2, T1 etc. that are out already and just how seemingly tiny the upgrades are.

Then I’m reminded that when twinking 39’s and 49’s of the lengths I would go through to get 1 more stam, int, agi on a piece of gear and how gold might have been no object.

[MoanaLisa]

The purpose of a stat squish isn't to ensure the numbers stay small, it's to provide plenty of space for them to rapidly increase again.

This is exactly right. Stat and damage squishes are all about allowing numbers to grow again so one can feel as if one has progressed. I think it's a bad system but it's the system that the game has.

The issue isn't raid gear, the issue is 4 tiers of raid gear.

So the issue is raid gear.

[Arainie]

Computers don't care about size of numbers in their calculations. They care about the amount of calculations. Also they fixed the 32-bit size issue in WoD after they started running into the 2.4billion issue in SoO bosses(notice how bosses like Thok and Garrosh heal during the fight?). Now they run the 64-bit size and they will realistically never run into the same issue ever.

64-bit arithmetics are typically equally fast or slower (read slower) than 32-bit arithmetics on modern CPUs. In addition to that, 64-bit integers naturally consume twice the amount of memory (and memory bandwidth), which in turn implies more possible cache misses (which are typically very expensive) all in all impacting execution speed of your code.

Now, with that said I don't believe switching from 32-bit to 64-bit datatypes in order to work around boss health (and gold cap etc) ever had any real impact on the client or our in-game performance as it's bound to be such a small change overall. I am fairly certain that WoW's developers are smart enough to use the correct data types from a performance standpoint in the vast majority of cases.

[Jastall]

I don't see what the issue here is.

Stat numbers aren't even that high.
Mop had like double those numbers.

MoP had way more in SoO, where I think we were doing 300-400k DPS and Warlocks could cheese their way to 1M+ on Protectors. Anyone correct me if i'm wrong.

Right now we're doing 40K DPS, 50K for the very top players in all but the cheesiest of situations. That's less than what we were doing at the end of WoD, albeit we're not at the end of the expansion yet. We do have tons more HP than in WoD however, I think I had somewhere around 150K HP in HFC while we have 350k+ now.

Next xpack we'll be topping MoP numbers for sure, if not closing in on Legion ones where by the end I had 10M HP and did 2.5M DPS. But these are just numbers to me.

[Mashanerz]

These stat squishes happen not because of inflation but because of planned obsolescence,

Blizz is demanding that all gear be replaced with every patch, but it's not just 1 set of gear either, it's gear ranging from LFR to Mythic.

Look at the ilvl difference from Molten Core to Naxx 40, then look at the difference from Uldir to EP.

The reason stat squishes have to happen, and happen every xpac, is because blizz decided that you must have exponential growth from raid to raid.

[dcc626]

These stat squishes happen not because of inflation but because of planned obsolescence,

Blizz is demanding that all gear be replaced with every patch, but it's not just 1 set of gear either, it's gear ranging from LFR to Mythic.

Look at the ilvl difference from Molten Core to Naxx 40, then look at the difference from Uldir to EP.

The reason stat squishes have to happen, and happen every xpac, is because blizz decided that you must have exponential growth from raid to raid.

so, if a new raid tier came out and the gear was not a noticible upgrade, you would be fine raiding? or m+ gear stayed the same.

i kind of doubt it.

[TheRainman]

Wasn't there a stat squish right in BFA? I just reached 120 and got some benthic gear and my stats are as high as 1500 stamina on some pieces. What the fuck are they doing? Wouldn't they need another stat squish again right at the beginning of the next expansion? Why are they even doing this?

They're doing a stat squish for the next xpac. Along with a level squish so I don't think they care how crazy it gets during bfa.

[Mashanerz]

so, if a new raid tier came out and the gear was not a noticible upgrade, you would be fine raiding? or m+ gear stayed the same.

i kind of doubt it.

m+ gear stops getting better after +10...but for some weird reason I do keys twice that, it's almost like gear has nothing to do with it?