The Dark Ranger: Does it have enough material to become a class?

[DotEleven]

The issue is you're using Forsaken as an Umbrella term for anyone who is raised into Undeath which disjoints itself from the current Forsaken in terms of as the PC race.
And this is where it all falls down for you. Nathanos is training Undead Humans which you've overlooked one thing. You've failed to notice that, as stated in Legion, these Forsaken Dark Rangers don't favour the traditional effort of bow therefore, you can't use the same spells as the Elven Dark Rangers when the Forsaken Dark Rangers won't be using them.

"These Forsaken hunters appear to favor the woodsman axe and the crossbow in contrast to the bow and arrow typically employed by their undead high elf counterparts."
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Dark_ranger

So all your objective ideals of "the spells transmute to necrotic" is now redundant. While you can say but I said Forsaken!
You can't have Forsaken *only* as you've been trying to dictate. In fact, that opens it up to pretty much other individuals training others in whatever way. And one Dark Ranger has taken her own apprentice to do exactly that.

If I was to run with it further... With Undeath, it's not a sudden gateway to being a master over necrotic abilities or indefinitely change their set of skills forever simply because they are raised into Undeath. It's rather absurd to simply tact on they're "Dark" because they're Undead and it changed them entirely! While Arthas wants a word with you and will say I used the Light even as I was Undead.

Yes, it's thematic to say the least, but there is lore that I will use lightly.

This lore shows they must essentially "train" and learn to transmute their abilities into that of their necrotic reflection.
"An elven ranger who dies and returns as a Forsaken undergoes a great shock. She can no longer cast elven ranger spells, and loses her woodland stride ability. While some may choose to let things be, most immediately seek out a dark ranger to relearn their arts.

An elven ranger seeking to convert to a dark ranger must, of course, have died, returned as a Forsaken, and seek to learn the arts of the shadow rather than the wild. This ordeal is difficult, as the dark ranger must twist everything she was taught about nature to start learning her darker trade. Then comes the hard part. A dark ranger-to-be must undergo a lengthy trial, where she unlearns everything she was taught as an elf and learns the new arts of a Forsaken."
https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Dark_ranger

I think you're too focused on the theme of Dark Rangers to the point that you're wilfully cutting out everyone else that can happen. To the point you've not noticed the huge fundamental difference with the possible PC Forsaken Rangers... They don't use bows like Dark Rangers.

The Undead humans ARE forsaken. The Forsaken are the undead in Sylvanas' care. Like the only other undead are either mindless Zombie types risen by necromancers or under control of the Lich King.

Like, please show me a non-Forsaken Dark Ranger.

Literally in the same page you're quoting. Right at the top.

Dark rangers are elven rangers with a different focus. The dark ranger is a cunning hero, adept at manipulating opponents. Forcibly raised from the dead, the former rangers of Quel'Thalas enjoy nothing more than sowing dissension and hatred within the enemy ranks.

When Sylvanas Windrunner, Banshee Queen of the Forsaken, regained her physical body, she realized that the natural world would never respond to her wishes again. Angered by this development, she turned to the arts that were becoming more and more natural to her: Necromancy. She altered her elven ranger teachings into a new form. Thus, the dark rangers were born.

Nearly all dark rangers are undead high elves found only among the Forsaken. No other faction has the elves' history coupled with the personal knowledge of shadows to learn the arts of a dark ranger. In fact, many dark rangers refuse to teach their arts to anyone who wasn't a former elf. While these rangers have slackened their restrictions some, most (nearly all) dark rangers were once elves.

Currently, there has been only one recording of a human ranger and subsequent dark ranger: Nathanos Blightcaller's resurrection as one of the Forsaken and service to the Dark Lady has earned him the rank of Champion of the Banshee Queen. Having once resided at Marris Stead in the Eastern Plaguelands, he is now a hunter trainer located in the War Quarter of the Undercity.

Dark rangers are similar to their high elven cousins, but focus on shadowcraft more than nature. Dark rangers are silent and invisible stalkers of the shadows, felling unsuspecting opponents with a single arrow. Dark rangers still favor the bow as the ultimate weapon, using the same arts that Quel'Thalas taught for millennia. Their spells work with manipulating the essences of life and death, as well as various horrible curses and mind-enslaving abilities.

There we go. A bunch of quotes from the source you yourself were using talking about the exclusivity of Dark Rangers in the Forsaken and multiple about how Dark Rangers use a twisted version of their ranger training.

[Evangeliste]

The Undead humans ARE forsaken. The Forsaken are the undead in Sylvanas' care. Like the only other undead are either mindless Zombie types risen by necromancers or under control of the Lich King.

Like, please show me a non-Forsaken Dark Ranger.

Literally in the same page you're quoting. Right at the top.

There we go. A bunch of quotes from the source you yourself were using talking about the exclusivity of Dark Rangers in the Forsaken and multiple about how Dark Rangers use a twisted version of their ranger training.

Rangers do not have to be forsaken. You're right, I've never said they do. DARK rangers on the other hand are. That's the distinction. [B]Dark Rangers specifically are Rangers (originally farstrider, but currently they've been adding others, most notably the Night Elves slaughtered on Darkshore) raised as Forsaken.

Like, you have two parts to a Dark Ranger. The skills they get are their ranger base, their tracking, trapping, scouting, etc. Lies in their ranger and therefore hunter origins. The Necromatic part of the dark ranger is the second part, which they get purely from having been raised as Forsaken. Pretty much that's where the "Dark" part of the Dark Ranger comes from. they didn't train, they didn't practice necromatic mastery, they didn't make a deal with a demon to trade their soul for their power. They were raised as Forsaken and just implemented what they gained from being raised into their ranger training.

"Dark rangers are similar to their high elven cousins, but focus on shadowcraft more than nature. Dark rangers are silent and invisible stalkers of the shadows, felling unsuspecting opponents with a single arrow. Dark rangers still favor the bow as the ultimate weapon, using the same arts that Quel'Thalas taught for millennia. Their spells work with manipulating the essences of life and death, as well as various horrible curses and mind-enslaving abilities."

Have you forgotten that this is a class discussion?

Do you honestly think that they wake up Undead and they suddenly know how to use their Ranger training in Undeath to become Dark Rangers? Like, really? You seem so hellbent that they open their eyes that suddenly they can. The last quote pretty much explains they opted to reform from that original focus. You know, like, don't use their original teaching to it's truest form and specifically make sure to realign themselves, master, observe, train, whatever to focus more on Shadowcraft. Wow, Rangers in life knew how to place horrible curses or mind-slaving abilities, guess that saved them a lot of time and they had the gift of foresight to learn these!
Which pretty much is the opposite of... They suddenly wake up and are Dark and necrotic like. Not to mention, that is putting them all into the same magical level of prowess when we have several named Dark Rangers all with clear variants of level, skill, rank and whatnot to show, they are not all equal.

I mean, the proof is right in front of you that new Dark Rangers have to be trained to use their skills specifically, and are within accordance to the identity of the Dark Ranger.
Nathanos personally trained more champions delegated by Sylvanas. Will they be Forsaken because Sylvanas made Nathanos train more? Well duh, it's in-keeping with the lore and the coo waiting to happen. Do we know they are Hunters? No... Are you assuming that they suddenly know how to become a Dark Ranger despite there's the same evidence indicating that they had to focus on melding it into Shadowcraft? Yes. Not to mention, the new Forsaken Rangers completely expand the identity of a Dark Ranger, meaning all the spells that the original Dark Rangers have are non-applicable. On top of that... You have Dark Ranger Velonara who has her own apprentice, which could also mean when they get revealed, it could throw out they need to be Forsaken out the window. Because Blizzard would want to throw the realms of restrictive lore out, in-game!

Yes for now, they are Forsaken, but again you fail to take note that if it's taught or actually learned, even relearned then actually... They don't have to be Forsaken to fulfil the class fantasy. Ba doooo. Just because they chose Forsaken and Nathanos did it to lick Sylvanas butt even more for lore's sake, does not mean others can never be taught or trained outside of the Forsaken race in the future for a class. Or that Blizzard will magically, restrict an intentional class to a single race. Even Demon Hunter was faction balanced.

[DotEleven]

Have you forgotten that this is a class discussion?

Do you honestly think that they wake up Undead and they suddenly know how to use their Ranger training in Undeath to become Dark Rangers? Like, really? You seem so hellbent that they open their eyes that suddenly they can. The last quote pretty much explains they opted to reform from that original focus. You know, like, don't use their original teaching and specifically make sure to realign themselves, master and train themselves to transmute it from a Nature focus to Shadowcraft focus. Which pretty much is the opposite of... They suddenly wake up and are Dark and necrotic like.

I mean, the proof is right in front of you that Dark Rangers have to be trained to use their skills specifically that are within accordance to the identity of the Dark Ranger.
Nathanos personally trained more champions delegated by Sylvanas. Do we know they are Hunters? No... Are you assuming that they suddenly know how to become a Dark Ranger despite there's the same evidence indicating that they had to focus on melding it into Shadowcraft? Yes. Not to mention, the new Forsaken Rangers completely expand the identity of a Dark Ranger, meaning all the spells that the original Dark Rangers have are non-applicable. Not to mention... You have Dark Ranger Velonara who has her own apprenctice, which also means, you don't need to be Forsaken for it! Because someone is willing to go out the realms of restrictive lore in-game!

Yes for now, they are Forsaken, but again you fail that if it's taught or actually learned, even relearned then actually... They don't have to be Forsaken to fulfil the class fantasy. Ba doooo. Just because they chose Forsaken and Nathanos did it to lick Sylvanas butt even more, does not mean others won't. Or the fact that Blizzard will only ever restrict it to Forsaken. Even Demon Hunter was faction balanced.

But the training is part of their forsaken abilities. It's part of their repertoire as forsaken. Yes, they are being trained in them, but they only have access to them in the first place because they are Forsaken. They are being trained in the ways of the Dark Ranger which means they are being trained in at least 2 things, the necromatic side they only have access to because they are forsaken and the ranger side that is the elven ranger teachings. A random Tauren or even Void Elf can't go out there and learn how to move about the battlefield as a Banshee, you have to be a Forsaken to get access to that.

The issue that part of the fantasy of being a Dark ranger comes from BEING FORSAKEN. The "Dark" side of dark rangers comes from the fact they are the undead.

Also, who's Velonara's apprentice?

BTW, keep bringing her up, because she was the representative for Dark Rangers to join the Unseen Path, the group that brought all hunters together. Further showing that Dark Ranger is a subset of Hunter.

Oh right, now I remember, the datamined quest that HASN'T BEEN IMPLEMENTED. You're trying to use that as lore when it hasn't even actually happened yet.

[Evangeliste]

But the training is part of their forsaken abilities. It's part of their repertoire as forsaken. Yes, they are being trained in them, but they only have access to them in the first place because they are Forsaken. They are being trained in the ways of the Dark Ranger which means they are being trained in at least 2 things, the necromatic side they only have access to because they are forsaken and the ranger side that is the elven ranger teachings. A random Tauren or even Void Elf can't go out there and learn how to move about the battlefield as a Banshee, you have to be a Forsaken to get access to that.

The issue that part of the fantasy of being a Dark ranger comes from BEING FORSAKEN. The "Dark" side of dark rangers comes from the fact they are the undead.

Also, who's Velonara's apprentice?

BTW, keep bringing her up, because she was the representative for Dark Rangers to join the Unseen Path, the group that brought all hunters together. Further showing that Dark Ranger is a subset of Hunter.

Here's one thing too...

Their spells work with manipulating the essences of life and death, as well as various horrible curses and mind-enslaving abilities.

Wow, I'm so glad that they learnt those abilities while they were alive and as a Ranger. That's some real efficiency there. It's like they somehow knew that they would become Undeath!

Because you know as you said... The Dark Ranger part comes from their Ranger training and becoming Undead!

Not once did they learn or train themselves while Undead. No one else can learn their arts but others have been and are being taught. No one possibly could extend that training... like other class fantasies such as Orcs taught the Draenei how to be Shamans.

[DotEleven]

Here's one thing too...

"Their spells work with manipulating the essences of life and death, as well as various horrible curses and mind-enslaving abilities."

Wow, I'm so glad that they learnt those abilities while they were alive and as a Ranger. That's some real efficiency there. It's like they somehow knew that they would become Undeath!

I'm NOT saying that all the abilities they use they had before. I'm saying they fucking used their necromatic as bonuses WITH THEIR RANGER TRAINING.

I'm done arguing with dumbasses that can't follow simple logic, like a freaking Dark Ranger using their previous skills and abilities as a ranger as a baseline and empowering those skills with their newfound undead abilities. You are literally blind if you can't follow along.

I really don't understand how these people can be so completely ignorant that they think that a Ranger is ONLY able to use ranger skills and that somehow adding in a non-ranger ability here or there suddenly makes them a completely different class.

[MrExcelion]

Thematically, yes. Needs to mesh better with more races to be viable as a class though.

[Piamonte]

I'm NOT saying that all the abilities they use they had before. I'm saying they fucking used their necromatic as bonuses WITH THEIR RANGER TRAINING.

I'm done arguing with dumbasses that can't follow simple logic, like a freaking Dark Ranger using their previous skills and abilities as a ranger as a baseline and empowering those skills with their newfound undead abilities. You are literally blind if you can't follow along.

I really don't understand how these people can be so completely ignorant that they think that a Ranger is ONLY able to use ranger skills and that somehow adding in a non-ranger ability here or there suddenly makes them a completely different class.

The only dumbass here is you, so many people telling you that you are wrong using facts and logic and you dismiss it altogether and keep repeating the same shit over and over again.

[Soon-TM]

Saying that all Dark Rangers must be elves because Sylvanas is like saying that all DKs must be humans because Arthas.

[DotEleven]

Saying that all Dark Rangers must be elves because Sylvanas is like saying that all DKs must be humans because Arthas.

No, I'm saying All Dark Rangers must be Forsaken. Their origins were originally High Elf Rangers and after their rebirth they were still rather testy about allowing non-elves learn their ranger skills. Hell, even before being risen they were still very wary of having Nathanos be a Farstrider himself. And in fact have only recently had him start training undead humans to be Dark Rangers.

It's not "all Dark Rangers must be elves because Sylvanas is an elf" it was "all Dark Rangers must be fprmer elves because they didn't teach other races their ranger skills"

[Evangeliste]

I'm NOT saying that all the abilities they use they had before. I'm saying they fucking used their necromatic as bonuses WITH THEIR RANGER TRAINING.

I'm done arguing with dumbasses that can't follow simple logic, like a freaking Dark Ranger using their previous skills and abilities as a ranger as a baseline and empowering those skills with their newfound undead abilities. You are literally blind if you can't follow along.

I really don't understand how these people can be so completely ignorant that they think that a Ranger is ONLY able to use ranger skills and that somehow adding in a non-ranger ability here or there suddenly makes them a completely different class.

You did though.

Right here:

Like, you have two parts to a Dark Ranger. The skills they get are their ranger base, their tracking, trapping, scouting, etc. Lies in their ranger and therefore hunter origins. The Necromatic part of the dark ranger is the second part, which they get purely from having been raised as Forsaken. Pretty much that's where the "Dark" part of the Dark Ranger comes from. they didn't train, they didn't practice necromatic mastery, they didn't make a deal with a demon to trade their soul for their power. They were raised as Forsaken and just implemented what they gained from being raised into their ranger training.

You've made sweeping generalisation that have been knocked down by the same lore. You've been given evidence that pretty much counters your original line of discussion. You have not been able to follow your own logic and have not been able to concede on points that have been be validly made.

I've explained to you that the existence of the training itself pretty much shows that it won't be Forsaken forever and it will certainly be used by Blizzard to do EXACTLY what they have done to other classes. Like Draenei's can be Shamans as Orcs taught them. Humans teaching Dwarves to be Paladins. Probably more I can't think of.

Dark Rangers are now not exclusive or preset to Elven Forsaken Rangers only, Sylvanas who is was Farstrider and Dark Ranger has personally lifted the refusal of passing on the arts by allowing Forsaken Humans to indulge. She instructed Nathanos and gave him the opportunity to train more. It's not going to stop there especially with the War Campaign concluding. Sylvanas is not the only one to lift that refusal as I said with other Dark Rangers. It's going to be an open door with that one now. It's all but been been laid down waiting for a class fantasy.

I think, it's you that doesn't really understand the implications of what the new lore and the expanded identity can achieve, when it's all very much to indulge a class. Dark Rangers use skills that are not just Bows now. They now include non-original ranger skills like Axes and Crossbows thanks to Nathanos which Sylvanas ALLOWED. Something that quite clearly differed from the the OG Hunter class because... They don't use Axes.

[Teriz]

Dark Ranger > Tinker

In your opinion obviously. From a gameplay and class homogeny standpoint, no. A Tinker inclusion is much better for the class lineup.

[F Rm]

Wow, well this is what I woke up to

Anyway, in short, you can actually lift the race restrictions for Dark Rangers to become a playable option. For some races.

To a degree, this has already been done. Like others have stated, there are not only former Elven Rangers
whom have been raised as Dark Rangers.
You also have the newer ones who were raised at Darkshore.

And, sort of, the Forsaken Rangers trained by Nathanos. Note though that, while they are described as having some ties to Dark Rangers, they aren't actually true Dark Rangers themselves.
Is that last part a big deal? Depends on who you ask I guess.

However, we still have the issue of the Undeath-requirement in order to become a Dark Ranger.
Technically, sure, their type of magic is not exclusive to being undead. You could just overlook that requirement.

My question is: Should you?
Because, if you ask me, if you lift that restriction then you would no longer fulfill the Dark Ranger-fantasy.

You wouldn't actually have a Dark Ranger anymore.
Because part of their fantasy, is being former resurrected rangers.

There is one class that can be played by a lot of different races. There is one class that when chosen, automatically makes you undead.

The Death Knight.

They already have the connection to necromancy and the manipulation of the life and death-essence.

Teach them how to fire a bow properly and you're golden. Sort of.

The biggest obstacle is the current armor-type associated with the DK class.

[Pheraz]

The current story definitely points more to a dark ranger than to a tinker...

On the other side what would the story be to make them the good guys?

I have my problems though because hunters are so similar. Maybe they just add it as a fourth spec?

[F Rm]

The current story definitely points more to a dark ranger than to a tinker...

On the other side what would the story be to make them the good guys?

I have my problems though because hunters are so similar. Maybe they just add it as a fourth spec?

If any spec should be added as a 4th option for hunters. It should be the spec that was taken away from us when going into Legion.

Old ranged Survival.
(check my signature below)

[DotEleven]

Wow, well this is what I woke up to

Anyway, in short, you can actually lift the race restrictions for Dark Rangers to become a playable option. For some races.

To a degree, this has already been done. Like others have stated, there are not only former Elven Rangers
whom have been raised as Dark Rangers.
You also have the newer ones who were raised at Darkshore.

And, sort of, the Forsaken Rangers trained by Nathanos. Note though that, while they are described as having some ties to Dark Rangers, they aren't actually true Dark Rangers themselves.
Is that last part a big deal? Depends on who you ask I guess.

However, we still have the issue of the Undeath-requirement in order to become a Dark Ranger.
Technically, sure, their type of magic is not exclusive to being undead. You could just overlook that requirement.

My question is: Should you?
Because, if you ask me, if you lift that restriction then you would no longer fulfill the Dark Ranger-fantasy.

You wouldn't actually have a Dark Ranger anymore.
Because part of their fantasy, is being former resurrected rangers.

There is one class that can be played by a lot of different races. There is one class that when chosen, automatically makes you undead.

The Death Knight.

They already have the connection to necromancy and the manipulation of the life and death-essence.

Teach them how to fire a bow properly and you're golden. Sort of.

The biggest obstacle is the current armor-type associated with the DK class.

The issue with Death Knight is that

1) Death Knights don't have any ranger training. They've been trained as Death Knights in the ways of Frost, Unholy, and Blood, how to imbue their weapon with these effects and enshrouding themselves in them as well. And as stated the Elves are a bit testy about teaching outsiders their Farstrider techniques. This goes all the way back to when Dark Rangers were just Farstriders. There were so many that were upset that Sylvanas was even teaching Nathanos.

2) All the playable undead (outside Death Knight) are a part of the Forsaken. No other playable race forcibly raises their people from the dead. The Death Knights had an entire storyline where they only came back to use because the Lich King control over them was weakened, otherwise we wouldn't even have death knights. Yes, Nathanos has a small regiment of human Undead being trained as rangers, but they're still under Sylvanas' command. Remember the dark rangers are her ELITE squad. Heck, they actually have a character in the game that drools over Dark Rangers but calls himself a "Death Ranger" instead because he's not actually a Dark Ranger cause he's a living blood-elf. If you do a small questline in Trueshot Lodge you even get a Dark Ranger's Hood.

[cozzri]

I don’t know if it’s been said, but races for dark ranger could be done like death knights; they are all undead free from the lich king.

Honestly though, I’d like to see a class a little more creative, like a Bolvar/Dragon/Fire Lich class that has a caster, healing, and archery spec.

[DotEleven]

I don’t know if it’s been said, but races for dark ranger could be done like death knights; they are all undead free from the lich king.

Honestly though, I’d like to see a class a little more creative, like a Bolvar/Dragon/Fire Lich class that has a caster, healing, and archery spec.

But how do you get all the rest of the races to get it without just rehashing the death knight scenario also noting that the Dark Rangers are part of Sylvanas elite guard? These people are willingly under her command, unlike the Death Knights which were controlled by the Lich King until that fight at Light's Hope Chapel released them.

[Teriz]

But how do you get all the rest of the races to get it without just rehashing the death knight scenario also noting that the Dark Rangers are part of Sylvanas elite guard? These people are willingly under her command, unlike the Death Knights which were controlled by the Lich King until that fight at Light's Hope Chapel released them.

Yeah, finding an alliance equivalent for this class would be a serious problem. That's probably why they just lined Dark Rangers up with the Hunter class.

All you need is Black Arrow, Wailing Arrow, and Shadow Dagger in the MM talents, and you can essentially be a Dark Ranger.

[derpkitteh]

But how do you get all the rest of the races to get it without just rehashing the death knight scenario also noting that the Dark Rangers are part of Sylvanas elite guard? These people are willingly under her command, unlike the Death Knights which were controlled by the Lich King until that fight at Light's Hope Chapel released them.

Yeah, finding an alliance equivalent for this class would be a serious problem. That's probably why they just lined Dark Rangers up with the Hunter class.

All you need is Black Arrow, Wailing Arrow, and Shadow Dagger in the MM talents, and you can essentially be a Dark Ranger.

it's quite obvious that they intend to do something with delaryn, she could easily be the leader for alliance dark rangers if she betrays sylvanas(or if, christ metzen forbid, sylvanas gets redeemed and becomes a neutral hero).

if you'll take notice of delaryn, she's the only one without an updated dark ranger model. her model is just a dk night elf skin with a faint red glow floating in front of normal white night elf eyes. this, to me, means she's probably going to be getting a unique model. she's also standing there at the end of the darkshore quests just staring at purple magic in her hand, a pose that's made to call attention to her.

[Teriz]

it's quite obvious that they intend to do something with delaryn, she could easily be the leader for alliance dark rangers if she betrays sylvanas(or if, christ metzen forbid, sylvanas gets redeemed and becomes a neutral hero).

if you'll take notice of delaryn, she's the only one without an updated dark ranger model. her model is just a dk night elf skin with a faint red glow floating in front of normal white night elf eyes. this, to me, means she's probably going to be getting a unique model. she's also standing there at the end of the darkshore quests just staring at purple magic in her hand, a pose that's made to call attention to her.

But she isn't a banshee, so automatically no Banshee powers for the class.

So without a Banshee spec, what specs are we looking at for this class?