Druids and arcane

[darkoms]

Hello
Do you think the balance druids really use the arcane or is it a game mechanic? The light purple color of their abilities is more or less similar to a arcane.
One of the tweets (which is no longer available since Sean Copeland deleted his twitter, so I retell from memory) said:
''In lore, the Druids use the power of Nature. The fact that part of their spells deals damage from arcane magic is game mechanics. Also, the forces of Elune are considered divine, not natural magic, but the forces of the sun is fire magic. After all, divine magic is the magic of God.'' In the preview of the druids of the specialization "Balance" in Legion(https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/19956929), their use of arcane magic is still indicated. But this may be the mistake of the article. Or not.
But this statement can hardly be considered a canon, because the separation of purely arcane and divine magic (and their subspecies) is information from RPG books and it has long been outdated.
Maybe the druids, following the example of the arkan'dor (or maybe Nordrassil to some extent, he still grew up on the second Well), restrain the arcane by nature? Maybe the night elves only forbiddance the use of pure arcana? Tyrande herself grew up in Suramar, where the Arkan'dors appeared. Maybe she suggested this idea to Malfurion. Arcane magic is, in fact, the magic of space and time to some extent. All this star theme is really more associated with arcane magic than with nature magic.

[Kyphael]

I always thought it was sun or lunar energy, nature or cosmic energy like Starfall and Moonfire. If Druids were Arcane users, wouldn't Malygos' war have extended to them and the Cenarion Circle too?

[Biske]

"Cosmic" energy in Warcraft is arcane. It's not arcane magic in the same way mages use it, it's arcane in element, or "raw" magic in a way.

Oh, and kind of unrelated, arcane is the magic type that represents "order" in the warcraft universe and is opposite to fel.

[matrix123mko]

Moon and sun magic in WoW are very controversial. Sunfire is classified as nature spell but Sunwalkers are paladins. Moon magic is arcane but priestessess of the moon also use holy. I would blame game mechanic for it.

[Raetary]

I wish Blizzard would just do us all a favor and write a booklet/blue post or something properly explaining Magic schools.

They should've done so in chronicle 1.

[Piamonte]

Hello
Do you think the balance druids really use the arcane or is it a game mechanic? The light purple color of their abilities is more or less similar to a arcane.
One of the tweets (which is no longer available since Sean Copeland deleted his twitter, so I retell from memory) said:
''In lore, the Druids use the power of Nature. The fact that part of their spells deals damage from arcane magic is game mechanics. Also, the forces of Elune are considered divine, not natural magic, but the forces of the sun is fire magic. After all, divine magic is the magic of God.'' In the preview of the druids of the specialization "Balance" in Legion(https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/19956929), their use of arcane magic is still indicated. But this may be the mistake of the article. Or not.
But this statement can hardly be considered a canon, because the separation of purely arcane and divine magic (and their subspecies) is information from RPG books and it has long been outdated.
Maybe the druids, following the example of the arkan'dor (or maybe Nordrassil to some extent, he still grew up on the second Well), restrain the arcane by nature? Maybe the night elves only forbiddance the use of pure arcana? Tyrande herself grew up in Suramar, where the Arkan'dors appeared. Maybe she suggested this idea to Malfurion. Arcane magic is, in fact, the magic of space and time to some extent. All this star theme is really more associated with arcane magic than with nature magic.

From what I gather from the lore, yes, the druids do use arcane magic mixed with nature magic, i believe as the name of the spec implies, they seek balance between the two forces.
This is a recurrent theme in night elf lore.

[mickybrighteyes]

I always took it as the 'arcane' that mages use and the 'arcane' that druids use are the same because of using game mechanics of spell categorizations only...

but a lot of story has been retconned overtime.

[huth]

Moon and sun magic in WoW are very controversial. Sunfire is classified as nature spell but Sunwalkers are paladins. Moon magic is arcane but priestessess of the moon also use holy. I would blame game mechanic for it.

Sunwalkers are Paladins in game mechanics. Lorewise, they're closer to Druidism than Priests. And i'd say more confusing than controversial.

But ultimately, spell schools ingame mean nothing beyond what spells get locked out when you get interrupted.

From what I gather from the lore, yes, the druids do use arcane magic mixed with nature magic, i believe as the name of the spec implies, they seek balance between the two forces.

What lore would that be? I've never seen anything that says so.

[darkoms]

Sunwalkers are Paladins in game mechanics. Lorewise, they're closer to Druidism than Priests. And i'd say more confusing than controversial.

But ultimately, spell schools ingame mean nothing beyond what spells get locked out when you get interrupted.


What lore would that be? I've never seen anything that says so.

They are no closer to druidism. Light can be used from faith in anything. Kobolds believe in candlelight. The Zandalars use Light from faith in Rezan (the wild god, the being of Life, not Light).
And what’s really interesting is that on Twitter, the developers said that the magic of higher aracoa is not Light, but the magic of the sun and is similar to the magic of druids. But in the Chronicles it was said that this is really the Light.

[Piamonte]

Sunwalkers are Paladins in game mechanics. Lorewise, they're closer to Druidism than Priests. And i'd say more confusing than controversial.

But ultimately, spell schools ingame mean nothing beyond what spells get locked out when you get interrupted.


What lore would that be? I've never seen anything that says so.

"By leveraging the sacred powers of the moon, the sun, and the stars, balance druids access arcane and nature magics" from the wowpedia page of balance druids. The Source is a guide from Legion

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They are no closer to druidism. Light can be used from faith in anything. Kobolds believe in candlelight. The Zandalars use Light from faith in Rezan (the wild god, the being of Life, not Light).
And what’s really interesting is that on Twitter, the developers said that the magic of higher aracoa is not Light, but the magic of the sun and is similar to the magic of druids. But in the Chronicles it was said that this is really the Light.

Sunwalkers lore is messy, thats why I have always have the opinion that holy cows shouldnt exists.

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They are no closer to druidism. Light can be used from faith in anything. Kobolds believe in candlelight. The Zandalars use Light from faith in Rezan (the wild god, the being of Life, not Light).
And what’s really interesting is that on Twitter, the developers said that the magic of higher aracoa is not Light, but the magic of the sun and is similar to the magic of druids. But in the Chronicles it was said that this is really the Light.

light isnt about faith, is about sheer will power

[darkoms]

"By leveraging the sacred powers of the moon, the sun, and the stars, balance druids access arcane and nature magics" from the wowpedia page of balance druids. The Source is a guide from Legion

- - - Updated - - -



Sunwalkers lore is messy, thats why I have always have the opinion that holy cows shouldnt exists.

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light isnt about faith, is about sheer will power

The only one who could use the Light by willpower is Benedict. Everyone else uses it by faith. That is why Turalyon could not use him against the orcs, because he had lost faith.

[Piamonte]

The only one who could use the Light by willpower is Benedict. Everyone else uses it by faith. That is why Turalyon could not use him against the orcs, because he had lost faith.

"The Light is the source of all life in the cosmos.[8] Summoned by willpower or faith in one's ability to do so". From wowpedia, the source is askdev

Having a sistem of faith seems to be a practical way of learning the light but is not really necesary, all you need is the belief you can use the light and thats all.

[StillMcfuu]

Hello
Do you think the balance druids really use the arcane or is it a game mechanic? The light purple color of their abilities is more or less similar to a arcane.
One of the tweets (which is no longer available since Sean Copeland deleted his twitter, so I retell from memory) said:
''In lore, the Druids use the power of Nature. The fact that part of their spells deals damage from arcane magic is game mechanics. Also, the forces of Elune are considered divine, not natural magic, but the forces of the sun is fire magic. After all, divine magic is the magic of God.'' In the preview of the druids of the specialization "Balance" in Legion(https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/19956929), their use of arcane magic is still indicated. But this may be the mistake of the article. Or not.
But this statement can hardly be considered a canon, because the separation of purely arcane and divine magic (and their subspecies) is information from RPG books and it has long been outdated.
Maybe the druids, following the example of the arkan'dor (or maybe Nordrassil to some extent, he still grew up on the second Well), restrain the arcane by nature? Maybe the night elves only forbiddance the use of pure arcana? Tyrande herself grew up in Suramar, where the Arkan'dors appeared. Maybe she suggested this idea to Malfurion. Arcane magic is, in fact, the magic of space and time to some extent. All this star theme is really more associated with arcane magic than with nature magic.

Because of the retconning that Blizz has done, yes Druids by lore use Arcane.

[ravenmoon]

Hello
Do you think the balance druids really use the arcane or is it a game mechanic? The light purple color of their abilities is more or less similar to a arcane.
One of the tweets (which is no longer available since Sean Copeland deleted his twitter, so I retell from memory) said:
''In lore, the Druids use the power of Nature. The fact that part of their spells deals damage from arcane magic is game mechanics. Also, the forces of Elune are considered divine, not natural magic, but the forces of the sun is fire magic. After all, divine magic is the magic of God.'' In the preview of the druids of the specialization "Balance" in Legion(https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/19956929), their use of arcane magic is still indicated. But this may be the mistake of the article. Or not.
But this statement can hardly be considered a canon, because the separation of purely arcane and divine magic (and their subspecies) is information from RPG books and it has long been outdated.
Maybe the druids, following the example of the arkan'dor (or maybe Nordrassil to some extent, he still grew up on the second Well), restrain the arcane by nature? Maybe the night elves only forbiddance the use of pure arcana? Tyrande herself grew up in Suramar, where the Arkan'dors appeared. Maybe she suggested this idea to Malfurion. Arcane magic is, in fact, the magic of space and time to some extent. All this star theme is really more associated with arcane magic than with nature magic.

I use to think it was game mechanics.. cos I perceived the druids to be pure nature.


but I have changed my mind consiiderably since. ANd i don't think it is such a bad idea that the night elf durids use arcane spells - in fact it fits the theme of the night elves, purple (the colour oof the arcane) skinned elves made from the arcane well of ternity, an arcnae based priestohod that discovers the goddess through studying an arcane well, which they llater master, all htis while being stewarded by a druid lord in their earlier stages, cultivating ta love of nature that is resotred after Azshara goes all bad.

If anything the race symbolises a highly devloped duality of arcane and nature, and who better to rperesent the balance than druids.

I don'tt hink hte druids were deeply fleshed out or thought out at first in the lore, I think originally they had elemental spells of earthquakes, hurricanes and other natural disasters like typhoons, but class design of the shaman necessitated that went ot them, so the durids I feel were given somethign else. now the starfire/moonfire, and later starfall and starsurge, lunar strike etc spells were given for ar eason, theya re based on the night elves arcane predisposition. and the almost exclusive night elven dominance of duridsm up to the start of wow, just liek the lore has them having an exclusive mage dominace up to when the high elves teach the humans.
It is not unreasonable that druids can cast arcane spells, the only difficulty comes with people accepting the darnassian kaldorei use of arcane mage. But if you go by exactly what the lore shows, the night elves are made form arcane magic, have oved it and always used it or being surrounded by it - the period of the long vigil bans the use of the well of eternity for arcane spells because this lights up Azeroth like a beacon, - with the return of thel egion in wc3, such a restriction is no longer necessary either.

2 possibilities arise from this. These druid arcane spells were employed during the 3rd war against the egion and once the legion had returned, there was no use not using them even though the highborne were banned until cataclysm.

Secondly, these spells do not utilise the magic from Azeroth, they neither draw from the Well of Etenrity (lighting up azeroth) nor leylines or even the latent magic in the air, they actually draw from the stars and moon, and thus were never in any danger of being a threat that could draw the legion back.


Whether or not this was the original intention of the druids or not, it is the current state of night elven based druidsm, and it's actually good. It's refreshing and different, to usual fantasy duridsm, without the druids losing their core feel, it also fits the the arcane origined and based night elf that also has an arcane themed priesthood.

The complexities between the arcane and night elf society have never been explored in depth, but their origin story, priesthood, druidic spells , Well of eternity, moonwells, pre-sundering civilization all hint that it is no where near as straightforward nor anit-arcane in the "hate" sense many a a layman lore reader might assume from some of the earlier lore.

This is also good news because it can build and reveal, more to the night elves who are very enigmatic, fitting that theme, and show us things about the arcane never explored before.

At the heart of their creation they were meant to be a pure elven magical based people fusing the best of the arcane and nature by combining the best and strongest aspects of traditional dark elf and forest elf fantasy tropes - this gave them a unique flair, which I think is worth continuing - their moon goddess, star and moon based arcane magic combined with their forest love gives avery different type of civilization and culture we see varying iterations in the high society pre-sundering and the forest based druids. What is lef toto see is an in-depth look at the sisterhood of elune..
g
these 3 night cultures are very habitat dependent, so again offer an interesting presentation of a race based on where you meet them, while all night elven, culture is very markedly different when you're in a night elf city than in a night elf forest than in a night elf temple.

Rather than cut them off and leave them as boring forest elves EVERY fantasy has, I think what blizzard originally intended them to be, this duality of arcane and nature with it's star light night theme should actually be focused on, rather than the nearly all druidic state they were in in the classic to wotlk era which is still how most people perceive them. hence why many struggle to accept the Kaldorei nature of the nghgtborne.

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I always took it as the 'arcane' that mages use and the 'arcane' that druids use are the same because of using game mechanics of spell categorizations only...

but a lot of story has been retconned overtime.

I took it as game mechanics only.. but now I dont think so .

I just find that the lore does provide the possbility of tit being exaclly that, and blizzard don't go to such heavy extents with a classo nly for game mechanics, when they launched with the one of the game values as everything in game is canon.

It is too well intetioned, deliberately designed, and further expannded on to be "just game mechanics".

Tauren paladins using the church of light rule book may be a game mechanics thing, but they still use the light, and mele weapons, and henahnce theme tc, that is lore based, and it is very different from the druid, which was established from the very start, n ot created for cataclysm.

We must then consider it a mystery how night leven long vigil durids who seemed to be very much agianst the use of arcane spells, would have this in their arsenal.


I thin we polarise these htigns far more than is intenended, furthermore, i think peopel fromed in accurate impressions from someo f the earlier material without doing due diligence on it. Mostof my conclusions above are based on information provided during wc3 and classic, not "retconned"information later.. thepresentation fo the druid arcane spells and the preistones just support and confirm this.

iIn ohter words, rather than keep assuming blizzzard has rectonned htis, or is lazy with this, or forgot this etc, how about we assume they were very intetnional about this, it's not a fluke, and that it reveals something about the night elves and the druids they haven't yet explained, and we should take it as a full part of the lore, becuase they have said so themselves and wait to eventually find out what the connection is and why.. i think it is as i have stated above, it's not rocket science, you only need combine the information you have been given and a picture will form that makes sense.Rather than

[mickybrighteyes]

We must then consider it a mystery how night leven long vigil durids who seemed to be very much agianst the use of arcane spells, would have this in their arsenal.

unless they retconned things, the druids were slumbering away for most of that period anyways.

[ravenmoon]

unless they retconned things, the druids were slumbering away for most of that period anyways.

Could be, afterall as you develop things, the shape changes etc.

I know blizzard don't like giving too much detail with things they start with, so they can develop them more organically later.

I also know that when they do things as big as spell allocation and abilities, names etc, it is very intetnional. Perhaps in WC3 as we saw in WotA, the druid originally wasn't intended to have those abilities, however as they developed the classes, they gave the shaman a lot of spells I felt were traditionally druidic, and then gave the druids these very interesting spells.


While it may not have been originally intended, I believe that the spells given them were very intentional, and they mapped a part related to night elf lore to reflect in the druid.

As we know so very little about druidsm actually, and the night elves,none of uus can say these aren't spells the druids shoudl have, nor should we, becuase htey decided to give them these spells, and we must take this as canon lore and figure out why, or what this tells us about the night elves.


i notice a lot of peoplel love denying some very obvious things about the nighte lves, especially when it comes tot he arcane, despite the facts all being there very clearly, yet any other conclusion is possible, as if they feel the night elves should have no part in the arcane - adn not actually taking the story blizzard has given as a basis for their views, but rather an early mis-interpreation that the development has shown time and time again to be wrong.

Whiles night elves from the long vigil very much love nature and revere, the arcane has been an intrinsic part of them, in their very make up, skin colour, well of eternity story and connection.

This has been fleshed out considerably so that we can now fully say, that night elves from the long vigil banned the practice of arcnae magic to prevent the legion returning - they didn't ban arcane (that's impossible for them - their world is full of it), nor did it cease to be a part of their lives. Only the practice of it was restricted for a very particular reason. The context, reason and events completely shed light on everything - it explains why the highborne returned in cataclysm, it shows the other side of the night elves and how deeply arcane is interwoven with nature, even so much so as when the practic of it is banned for 10k years, these elves are completley surrounded by it and employing hte energies to fulfill thier functions.

when the origin story was shared, adn the great event of the sundering, we see far more complex interactions with the divine Elune and the arcnae, that isn't as simple as we may try to make it and is why you can see night elf priests and druids traditionally use these moon/star arcane spells despite everything.

This is part of the mystery and the enigma of the race, and as time goes by will continue to unpack - it is as intended. Log on to classic and see the word engimatic as the chief descriptive feature of the night elf. For now, we must continue to do as we have always done, use the information and evidence given to us through various official mediia to try and understand the mystery better - rather than just dimiss clear evidence as a retcon or mechanics only just becuase it doesn't fit our point of view about them.

With that attitude we will never truly understand or enjoy what they are trying to show us, and will continue to be perpelxed when we see arcane spells and character of the night elves continue to show. Remember how even in 8.1 with Tyrande and the black moon order priests using arcane and void spells - people are still trying to deny that the night elf arcane conneciton is very much a prevalent and relevant part in ALL their orders and society.. the mages (moonguard and highborne) may be hte order that primarily practices the arcane, however the druids and priests are very tied into it, depsite those orders not being about the arcane at all. Truth is they don't have to be necessarily to employ some arcane based tools.

And every thing that appears to be a contradiction can actually have an explanation that makes sense. If it isn't mentioned directly, then we can have fun figuring it out until it is verified.

I have talked this oout extensively with several people ver the last 14 years, my tone changed significantly about 8 years ago, due to a series of challenges on the forum about my understanding of the night elves. If you go back that far you would see my posts were primarily about the druidic core of the night elves and very rosy puritan/perfect image of them, to the point that I was very adamant they weren't from trolls - largely because i was basing my information on original night elf WC3 description.. and not encomapssing all the additions they added ot it later, therefore when the suspicion that night elves came from trolls was presented, I didn't see it, I was too focused on on the original disclosure and realised far too late, that they had actually infact changed it - but subtely because so little original information was actually given.

Since then I went back and looked over the entire thing, and relaised far more than I had, so when I came back to wow softly at first, I had changed a lot of my original views and impressions, adamant to never be blinded again by failing to encompass lore they have actually provided that may change some of my earlier views. This allowed me to pick up a lot of stuff I had missed.

The clues have always been there about the night elves, arcane , nature and Elune - always. From classic, the night elves are surrounded with moonwells, and it is told directly theses are created from the arcane waters of the well of eternity, and used to enhance life. The focus on the Well may have diminished after Wc3, but the entire long vigil and its mission statmenet is dominated by protecting this to stave off the demonic invasion. The night elf arcane absitence is not a racial feature, it is just a part of their story arc. The racial feature is arcane based with a revere for nature and worship of a moongoddess, these 3 pillars are upheld by highborne, druid and priest of elune -t hes tory ebs from an era where the arcane dominated, to one hwere nature dominatd and the present era (starting after WC3, i.e. classic) where all these 3 orders are present again, and more when you consider the illidari - an off shoot of the mage.

to be honest, I like it, it makes htem interesting. And I have said it many times before, if they stick to the original classic druidic only presentation of the night elves, they would be unbelievabley boring, sacrificing 3/4 of a lot of interesting stuff, only to hone in on one of the key features. It would be a loss and a shame if you ask me for them to do that. I have come to love their world building because they made non-human races actually feel a lot more realistic by being diverse instead of just about 1 thing like most other fantasies do.

The night elves feel like they are a very ancient people that dominated the world at one point precisely because they have such a wide array of key features, and not just druidsm. HAving such legendary magecraft, priesthood and druidsm shows a large amount of diversity, and its fine that humans, high elves and some other aces also have priests and mages, the way the kaldorei (including shal'dorei) is presented is unique enough. Some people don't want to accept that, feeling that night elves should be exclusively druidic, forest people and is their only way of standing out.

I disagree very strongly, I think they stand out uniquely enough as is, and having several very strong key feature in the arcane, nature, priesthood as blizzard has defined it (you see arcane and nature intertwined with divine through every facet and to an intense level with the night elves. Their forte isn't heavy armoured warrior fighting, big muscles or holy warrior - no, their fote is arcane magic, nature magic and this different sort of priesthood that has arcane as an arsenal in addition to holy and void stuff), mix that in a night wolorld, with the foucs on the stars and moon and you have something quite unique that should be developed further, and let's not forget how much more flavour you add when you throw in demon hunters.

now if you just had demon hunters, sentinels and druids - there is a sameness to these in the sense their setting is forest and ruins. However add Moon priest, Highborne and moonguard you bring a very different and equally gorgeous setting - moonlight/starlight cities and temples to the mix, giving night elves a world of their own, a night world with enchanted forest, enchanted night cities and temples, but also fel masters of arid wastelands of a particular kind.

this is good, it is usunique and it is diverse enough

[Nadiru]

Arcane is basically the power of Order compared to the Chaos of Fel, and what's more orderly than the natural procession of stars and planets? Makes sense to me, honestly.

[A Chozo]

Sunfire is classified as nature spell but Sunwalkers are paladins.

Sunwalkers (and other Tauren Divine magic casters) aren't directly using literal solar spells - they are using Holy magic through their faith in An'she / the Earthmother. In it's core, it's the same method that Blood Elves with faith in the Light, Draenei with faith in the Naaru or Zandalari with faith in Rezan use.

Which is different from druidic magic that isn't spawned from faith nor willpower.

[Rozz]

Imo, I have always considered Balance druids and Elune to be primarily arcane in nature. While their solar magic is possibly still Nature powered, all the spells relating to the moon represented the arcane duality to me. Which is why I thought it as sort of weird it took Legion to fused Nature and Arcane magic...they've technically been doing this the whole time. The dragons sure as heck weren't using nature spells, when they gave their blessings via arcane divined powers. Arcane even took part in their very evolution from trolls.

And they couldn't figure out how to make a magic tree?
I know I'm dumbing it down, but arcane has already coexisted with nature for thousands of years on Azeroth. I don't know why the devs wanted to present it as a major new concept in Legion.

[ravenmoon]

Imo, I have always considered Balance druids and Elune to be primarily arcane in nature. While their solar magic is possibly still Nature powered, all the spells relating to the moon represented the arcane duality to me. Which is why I thought it as sort of weird it took Legion to fused Nature and Arcane magic...they've technically been doing this the whole time. The dragons sure as heck weren't using nature spells, when they gave their blessings via arcane divined powers. Arcane even took part in their very evolution from trolls.

And they couldn't figure out how to make a magic tree?
I know I'm dumbing it down, but arcane has already coexisted with nature for thousands of years on Azeroth. I don't know why the devs wanted to present it as a major new concept in Legion.

In agreement with you here. Although I dont think the devs were trying to present it as a major new concept in Legion, if this is what some are perceiving it as. I feel they simply highlighted or presented it clearly in game for the first time. While you can see the duality as far back as Wc3 and WotA, and see it in classic too, it is not obvious unless you pay attention to what they are actually saying e.g you needed to click that the Well of Eternity was an arcane well, and arcane waters were used in all the Moonwells, and both the Well and the arcane are culturally sacred to the night elves regardless of whether arcane practice was banned. The arcane also Carrie's spiritual significance, and if you understand that, you see why the abuse of it at the end of the first era was quite alarming to many night elves and compounds their hatred for the highborne court of Azshara that lead the way in the abuse of this.

The reason it took till Legion to show the duality more boldly in wow is because night elves like most races in wow dont get proper updates until they are an expansion focus. Night elves didnt become one until they decided to do Legion and show us the kaldorei empire part of them.

The only reason we got some night elf lorr progression in Cataclysm was because every original race had new lore, otherwise we would not have seen what we did in cata likely until Legion or a book which is where we witness most night elf activity as they chose not to spare resources to an already too popular alliance race. That only a problem because they wanted to keep alliance numbers down and boost horde ones since TBC. You will notice no alliance race outside humans has received any serious focus, and humans only to be the opposition the horde has to deal with.

I think this philosophy remained up to WoD, Legion was the first expansion centre tred around an alliance race instead, that got a lot more focu. However, since they took the nightborne to the horde after 7.3.5, looking back you could say it has got horde focus through them, although at the time of their release, they were purely considered as a night elf based and thus alliance related rsce.