Why exactly are people so anti-LFR?

[Fred Skinner]

world quests have a cap to where you get benefit. world quest progression isn't endless, rofl.

I never said it is endless. Yet, it is enough to give character progression to its intended audience.

Also, the cap is being raised thruout the lifetime of the expac.

A world quester (and i mean someone who plays world quests only) has an ongoing character progression. I do not talk about a mythic raider who outgears world quests very fast.

you're talking about il 380 so you're clearly way below the max reward of both sources. wqs cap out at what, 395? with 415 caches sometime?
WQs stop being rewarding after 24hours at 120.

For whom? It seems to me it takes enough time for most players to get there.

[rohoz]

I never said it is endless. Yet, it is enough to give character progression to its intended audience.

Also, the cap is being raised thruout the lifetime of the expac.

A world quester (and i mean someone who plays world quests only) has an ongoing character progression. I do not talk about a mythic raider who outgears world quests very fast.



For whom? It seems to me it takes enough time for most players to get there.

for players that actually do content

[Fred Skinner]

for players that actually do content

Your definition of content seems to be a real Scotsman.

[Otimus]

world quests have a cap to where you get benefit. world quest progression isn't endless, rofl.

you're talking about il 380 so you're clearly way below the max reward of both sources. wqs cap out at what, 395? with 415 caches sometime?
WQs stop being rewarding after 24hours at 120.

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yes because everyone is constantly leveling alt #5551123. If you played during TBC/WoTLK you'd know that leveling from 1-max was essentially you begging your guild/friends to help you on quests you couldn't solo.

which is why they added in heirloom gear, LFD that gives you level appropriate dungeons via queue/cross server, constantly reduced the experience required from 1-max, those kinds of things.

Not only did I play during TBC, I solo leveled (I think, if I recall correctly, a fury warrior, though it may have been arms.) during TBC. You didn't "need" to do group quests. You could skip them. The only "difficulty" in leveling was just putting the time in. IMHO, you should get an XP bonus for leveling in a group. Instead, you're punished for it, which goes against trying to get people to play in groups, IMHO. Pretty early on, you[re taught that other people are pretty dang detrimental to the leveling process. Moreso now than ever. Before the looting rules were changed, you'd even be taught to avoid even trying to level near someone, because it'd make it take longer, which is just bad design if you want to encourage socializing/group play. You're basically taught to hate other people and your own faction lol.

(The real point I'm trying to make here is that Blizzard sure doesn't do enough with their world or community. The best you get is world quests, world bosses... and some chat/guild features... and then almost everything of value is instanced off.)

[rohoz]

Your definition of content seems to be a real Scotsman.

Well, you're the type to think that wqs and lfr are where you progress your character so, who knows. Lowest common denominator difficulty receives lowest common denominator rewards. News at 10.

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Not only did I play during TBC, I solo leveled (I think, if I recall correctly, a fury warrior, though it may have been arms.) during TBC. You didn't "need" to do group quests. You could skip them. The only "difficulty" in leveling was just putting the time in. IMHO, you should get an XP bonus for leveling in a group. Instead, you're punished for it, which goes against trying to get people to play in groups, IMHO. Pretty early on, you[re taught that other people are pretty dang detrimental to the leveling process. Moreso now than ever. Before the looting rules were changed, you'd even be taught to avoid even trying to level near someone, because it'd make it take longer, which is just bad design if you want to encourage socializing/group play. You're basically taught to hate other people and your own faction lol.

Yeah good thing they changed that legion (wod??) onwards. Nice going, blizzard. You can quest alongside/with people now without any impact on droprates.

My point still stands though, you either did solo quests or asked for help. Noone leveled with elite quests in tbc because the zones were drier than the sahara.

[Fred Skinner]

Well, you're the type to think that wqs and lfr are where you progress your character so, who knows. Lowest common denominator difficulty receives lowest common denominator rewards. News at 10.

I do not believe you understood my comment.

[rohoz]

I do not believe you understood my comment.

i don't believe you understand how difficulty and gear progression works, either.

[Daffan]

The only people who have problems with LFR are casuals themselves. It dissuades them from doing harder content because they try to avoid challenge in general. You get the best gear in the game, the best transmog of the tier, the most challenging and fun experience, an achievement, and top 100 if you're alliance.

The thing stopping you from raiding higher tiers isn't LFR being casual, it's you being casual. Imagine getting so much of a sense of accomplishment from LFR that it dissuades you from doing higher difficulties.

Actually wrong.

People outside this group can have a problem with it too. If you want sub retention to stay high you need to keep casuals hooked as long as possible. You don't need to be a casual to identify this.

[SirCowdog]

"But be assured, only true fans are playing now".

I LOL'd!

While I often criticize Blizzard for attempting to tell players how to play, I have to admit they still manage to provide a broad array of activities for a diverse playerbase.

The idea that there's only one type of "true" player of wow is downright ridiculous. And I love how you pointed that out.

[Whiskyjack]

I LOL'd!

While I often criticize Blizzard for attempting to tell players how to play, I have to admit they still manage to provide a broad array of activities for a diverse playerbase.

The idea that there's only one type of "true" player of wow is downright ridiculous. And I love how you pointed that out.

Is it?

Call me crazy but back when the game was a regular rpg without a mountain of instant Facebook style rewards for logging in and doing limited time content it performed much better. It is now in the awkward state runescape is were its older versions are actively more popular then it's current.

They aimed for a wider playerbase alienated their core and gained little if anything. They made the mistake of "blizzarding it" a term I'm going to coin right now.

"When you entire companies success has been to copy successful games and refine them you fail to understand what draws people in to start with and end up degenerating into dull boring content in the feeble attempt to be appealing to everyone"

An example.

" man did you see how heroes of the storm and diablo immortal died from them blizzarding it? When will they learn?

[Lora]

eh. no one actually considers LFR real raiding or the gear from it as meaningful. I personally dont get the hate for it. If people dont have the time to commit to regular raiding but wanna still see the story from the raids then thats what lfr is there for really.

[SirCowdog]

Is it?

Call me crazy but back when the game was a regular rpg without a mountain of instant Facebook style rewards for logging in and doing limited time content it performed much better. It is now in the awkward state runescape is were its older versions are actively more popular then it's current.

They aimed for a wider playerbase alienated their core and gained little if anything. They made the mistake of "blizzarding it" a term I'm going to coin right now.

"When you entire companies success has been to copy successful games and refine them you fail to understand what draws people in to start with and end up degenerating into dull boring content in the feeble attempt to be appealing to everyone"

An example.

" man did you see how heroes of the storm and diablo immortal died from them blizzarding it? When will they learn?

I don't disagree that they went too far. Obviously they had the right idea around the time of TBC leading into WotLK. But clearly something went very wrong after that. If I had to guess it would be the influence of Activision. I know that's a popular tinfoil hat topic. But I really do think that it was when WoW was at its peak that the corporate atmosphere and focus on monetization over fun started to set in.

But who knows, really? I just hope that Blizzard learns the right lessons from Classic, and doesn't over-do it for whatever happens after BfA.

[Whiskyjack]

I don't disagree that they went too far. Obviously they had the right idea around the time of TBC leading into WotLK. But clearly something went very wrong after that. If I had to guess it would be the influence of Activision. I know that's a popular tinfoil hat topic. But I really do think that it was when WoW was at its peak that the corporate atmosphere and focus on monetization over fun started to set in.

But who knows, really? I just hope that Blizzard learns the right lessons from Classic, and doesn't over-do it for whatever happens after BfA.

It wasn't Activision or at least I don't think it was. Blizzard has never really had good decisions making skills it's why I'm always baffled when people point to them as some kind of informed insider. They are copy cats. There isn't an orginal idea in the minds of a blizzard director to the point they admitted it.

They copied rts when rts were in. They copied action rpgs when action RPGs were in and they copied mmos when mmos are in.

The problem with blindly copying trends is that you can easily lose yourself trying to chase down ones you don't understand. Blizzard tried to copy what made phone games successful since player wise they are the biggest market. It blew up in their face. The problem is they only know how to copy so rather then right the ship they copied harder and harder.

I can see Activision pushing for monetization and selling idoits mounts and toys for money but I can't see them directing game design.

[Yriel]

Is it?

Call me crazy but back when the game was a regular rpg without a mountain of instant Facebook style rewards for logging in and doing limited time content it performed much better. It is now in the awkward state runescape is were its older versions are actively more popular then it's current.

They aimed for a wider playerbase alienated their core and gained little if anything. They made the mistake of "blizzarding it" a term I'm going to coin right now.

"When you entire companies success has been to copy successful games and refine them you fail to understand what draws people in to start with and end up degenerating into dull boring content in the feeble attempt to be appealing to everyone"

An example.

" man did you see how heroes of the storm and diablo immortal died from them blizzarding it? When will they learn?

As said a lot of times before, it's strange that you pick WoW as your "regular rpg", WoW was always super casual. Yes in 2004 MMOs were a more hardcore, niche product so even the casual version was a bit stricter than it is today but still, it was the fast-food MMO back then.
They always aimed for the widest possible playerbase, that was their core.

It's so funny so many people pick the most casual MMO on the market for their "back then in Vanilla people were true hardcore" speeches.

[Whiskyjack]

As said a lot of times before, it's strange that you pick WoW as your "regular rpg", WoW was always super casual. Yes in 2004 MMOs were a more hardcore, niche product so even the casual version was a bit stricter than it is today but still, it was the fast-food MMO back then.
They always aimed for the widest possible playerbase, that was their core.

It's so funny so many people pick the most casual MMO on the market for their "back then in Vanilla people were true hardcore" speeches.

A regular rpg in the sense of how it is structured... there is a clear progression ladder were the current game relies excessively on luck and difficulty modes to simulate it.

Casual can't just mean terrible players as well. You have to actually offer casual content that people can progress through. Tbc did rather well with this concept by having even dungeons be at varying difficulties.

WoW doesn't need everything to be on mythic. It does need it to be on normal though. This log in spam whatever is on your 2 key by default and collect loot should of never become the default play level expected of 90% of the playerbase.

People need to fail. They need to be challenged at all levels. That doesn't mean everything should be super hard but pulling two mobs your level should be dangerous, bosses shouldnt be seen as recovery rooms ( I hear that fifth get better in bfa though).

I dislike how the term casual went from someone who plays a few hours a week to someone who effectively plays worse then a hunter pet on auto.

[rohoz]

I wonder if people remember that there were 2 time limited events in vanilla that never got repeated

No? Prob not. I'm still mad at myself for vendoring lord blackwood's blade

[Yriel]

A regular rpg in the sense of how it is structured... there is a clear progression ladder were the current game relies excessively on luck and difficulty modes to simulate it.

Casual can't just mean terrible players as well. You have to actually offer casual content that people can progress through. Tbc did rather well with this concept by having even dungeons be at varying difficulties.

WoW doesn't need everything to be on mythic. It does need it to be on normal though. This log in spam whatever is on your 2 key by default and collect loot should of never become the default play level expected of 90% of the playerbase.

People need to fail. They need to be challenged at all levels. That doesn't mean everything should be super hard but pulling two mobs your level should be dangerous, bosses shouldnt be seen as recovery rooms ( I hear that fifth get better in bfa though).

I dislike how the term casual went from someone who plays a few hours a week to someone who effectively plays worse then a hunter pet on auto.

But that is your opinion. Why should everybody forced to play the way you like? What is the benefit for everyone else but you?

I'm not the best raider but i think i am a decent healer. From Wrath to Mop we played through all normal raids (that would be classified as heroic today) but i actually never liked the raid gameplay that much and one day i was sitting in the train from my work home. I had a stressful day and was thinking "oh god when i come home i have 20 minutes to make a pizza and then have to raid for the rest of the evening" when i would have rather watched some DVDs on my couch. That was the moment i realized that i spent 8 hours of my free time each week with an activity i don't enjoy. That was when stopped raiding. I'm not too bad to do it, i just don't want to play by a schedule anymore and i don't enjoy the choreographed gameplay.
I have enough challenge in my life, i don't really need it when relaxing. People who want challenges can have them in WoW. There is all kind of difficult content with the best gear/mounts/titles as rewards. People who just want to play a bit can do so, too. Whats so bad about that?

Why should i be forced to raid just to justify your idea of an regular rpg? I've played rpgs for 35 years by now and let me tell you, my ideas of an rpg are quite different from yours.

[Whiskyjack]

But that is your opinion. Why should everybody forced to play the way you like? What is the benefit for everyone else but you?

I'm not the best raider but i think i am a decent healer. From Wrath to Mop we played through all normal raids (that would be classified as heroic today) but i actually never liked the raid gameplay that much and one day i was sitting in the train from my work home. I had a stressful day and was thinking "oh god when i come home i have 20 minutes to make a pizza and then have to raid for the rest of the evening" when i would have rather watched some DVDs on my couch. That was the moment i realized that i spent 8 hours of my free time each week with an activity i don't enjoy. That was when stopped raiding. I'm not too bad to do it, i just don't want to play by a schedule anymore and i don't enjoy the choreographed gameplay.
I have enough challenge in my life, i don't really need it when relaxing. People who want challenges can have them in WoW. There is all kind of difficult content with the best gear/mounts/titles as rewards. People who just want to play a bit can do so, too. Whats so bad about that?

Why should i be forced to raid just to justify your idea of an regular rpg? I've played rpgs for 35 years by now and let me tell you, my ideas of an rpg are quite different from yours.

Because its what the product was sold as and it's most popular form...

It's been twisted into something far less successful over the years to chase after people it can never keep but that was a mistake financially.

You not enjoying something isn't a reason to destroy something. Games live and die in niches there isn't a exception to that.

I personally never understood the obsession people have with raiding . If you get rid of free no effort gear you can go back to having meaningful drops from dungeons like the hand of justice or ironfoe.

You are actively campaigning for raid or die and raider io and it baffles me as to why given the reasons you listed.

[kaminaris]

Because its what the product was sold as and it's most popular form...

Back then, now it would just die without a decent amount of options.

It's been twisted into something far less successful over the years to chase after people it can never keep but that was a mistake financially.

That is entirely wrong. If wow in its current form, would be released back when vanilla was released. It would absolutely obliterate any existing MMO on the market.
What you are completely mistaken about is that game is simply old and stale. That is the only reason.

You not enjoying something isn't a reason to destroy something. Games live and die in niches there isn't a exception to that.

And games simply dies because there isn't much to do in them anymore, devs stops caring and everything feels the same.

I personally never understood the obsession people have with raiding . If you get rid of free no effort gear you can go back to having meaningful drops from dungeons like the hand of justice or ironfoe.

For me, as mythic raider, that would mean no challenge at all. Which would mean grind to get better gear. Not fun = unsubscribe. BUT I do understand people want alternative progression path so we have M+ and PVP now. And I don't cry you can get some titanforge from it that would be better than my mythic raid gear. Wouldn't care in the slightest as gear is just means to an end. Not goal.

More options = ALWAYS better. Ima mythic raider but I like battle pets have about 800 of them and plan to get at least 1000 unique ones.

[Whiskyjack]

Back then, now it would just die without a decent amount of options.


That is entirely wrong. If wow in its current form, would be released back when vanilla was released. It would absolutely obliterate any existing MMO on the market.
What you are completely mistaken about is that game is simply old and stale. That is the only reason.


And games simply dies because there isn't much to do in them anymore, devs stops caring and everything feels the same.


For me, as mythic raider, that would mean no challenge at all. Which would mean grind to get better gear. Not fun = unsubscribe. BUT I do understand people want alternative progression path so we have M+ and PVP now. And I don't cry you can get some titanforge from it that would be better than my mythic raid gear. Wouldn't care in the slightest as gear is just means to an end. Not goal.

More options = ALWAYS better. Ima mythic raider but I like battle pets have about 800 of them and plan to get at least 1000 unique ones.

I simply disagree with you. I think its telling that wow is losing to itself currently..

Retail only offers content for the best and the worst of the player base that isn't more options it's less.

Take classic. Right now if I want to advance my character I can choose between scholo,strat,brd gold farming to work towards powerful rewards. On live I can only do hours of tedious quests follow by roughly... I would say 20 hours of ap farming followed by pvp for my talents.