Post your War Campaign finale predictions here!

[Mehrunes]

I'm aware he became Sargeras' jailer - I'm saying being Sargeras' jailer is *not* the destiny Xe'ra wanted for him, as both implied by her speech to him and shown in the "Illidan" novel's ending. That not how lampshading works, and lampshading isn't really applicable in this context. It's more an averted trope. The "spiteful narrative" is your blatant dislike of Saurfang and the need to continually paint him as a sadsack, driven solely by despair, which as I said isn't really representative of his story at the current. Him becoming the Night Warrior is just a farce I'm semi-entertaining out of amusement.

Jog my memory and remind me when exactly have I said that was the destiny Xe'ra wanted for him. Oh, that's right, I never said that. Because Xe'ra doesn't have the monopoly on chosen ones. Which I already made explicitly clear two posts ago:

Just because he didn't becomes Xe'ra's flavor of a Chosen One doesn't mean he didn't become some kind of a Chosen One.

You don't even know what you're arguing against at this point and, consequently, repeatedly drag the discussion back to a tangent that not only was never something I actually argued in favor of, but was outright denied by me. I'm not sure how that's supposed to work, but that's not exactly a solid basis for you accusing me of being wrong about lampshading.

Illidan became the jailer of a threat to the entire universe and as such its savior. That makes him a chosen one. Despite - stay with me here - that chosen one-ness >>>!!!NOT!!!<<< being what Xe'ra wanted for him. Because, it bears repeating, Xe'ra is not some kind of be all, end all of the chosen one trope.

And if that is supposed to be the supposed spiteful narrative about Saurfang of mine, then sorry, but that's just more of you being lost in the argument, because what we're discussing isn't "my spiteful narrative". I'm not the one who brought up Saurfang being sad (even though his sadness is the driving force of his entire story in this expansion and without it he'd be likely dead by now) nor the one who proposed him becoming the Night Warrior. Me addressing some of your concerns about the logistics of that when they make little sense in context of a deity that already forced changes on people in the past doesn't magically make that "spiteful narrative" mine.

A retcon is the change that occurs as well as the explanation and circumstances of new continuity rising from it, with the alteration also effecting past events. Unexplained changes are bad forms of retcons, whereas explained ones could be either. Metzen did indeed admit to forgetting about the Eredar's original plight, but I maintain that the new continuity is actually better than the older version of the continuity, where the Eredar were just another variety of demon with little to no backstory. The Eredar/Draenei retcon created a good deal more narrative fission and launched a compelling set of story-arcs all on its own, it's an improvement to what came before it even if it was caused by an accident and error.

Last time I checked the rule was "newer lore trumps older lore in case of conflict", not "newer lore creates a 'paradox' with older lore in case of conflict unless explicit explanation is given". What you're saying here is flat out wrong on all counts. If a character that died earlier in the story is seen alive later on, the very fact that they are alive retcons them dying. An explanation is not needed for that. There's no "paradox". Stories don't generally work on paradoxes unless the paradox is a deliberate choice in something like a time travel story. If it's not, the newest story bit changes the story if it conflicts with older story and as such retroactively changes the said older part. That's how retcons work and that's how they have always worked.

I mean, you're outright contradicting yourself here. If unexplained changes are bad forms of retcons then you admit they are retcons nonetheless. And if something can be a retcon without the explanation, even if it makes it a "bad form" of it, then that automatically means the explanation isn't a necessary element here. So thanks for shooting your own argument down. You totally validated your earlier allusions that I don't know what a retcon is right here.

YMMV as to what "sloppy writing" is. I call a change that improves the story and opens up greater narrative and dramatic arcs an improvement on its face, but if you want to get hung up on the original error I can't really stop you. Angling for error-free perfection is an often onerous if not impossible chore, and if one sets their standards so high as to demand there be no errors in 20+ years of a given narrative then one is likely to be often disappointed.

A subjective improvement to the story doesn't negate the sloppy nature of storytelling fuckups that are retcons. Let's just use the example above. You thinking that the Eredar retcon "created a good deal more narrative fission and launched a compelling set of story-arcs all on its own" in regards to a race with no backstory (even though the same results could have been achieved without retconning anything) doesn't negate the fact that all of that has happened because Metzen simply forgot about what he wrote before. Even though at that point you wouldn't even fit one page with Eredar's previous story, making it a rather simple thing to fact check. And not remembering your own story and being unable to fact check it is sloppy, period. Especially in the scope we have in Warcraft.

And please, drop the fallacious appeal to passage of time. Because it's not like Blizzard retconning the shit out of everything is a new development caused by them simply being unable to follow the wealth of their established story by now. War of the Ancients trilogy retconned one of the biggest events in Azerothian history before WoW was even released, back when the entire story of Warcraft would have fit in a game manual. Blizzard retconning things isn't caused by them being feeble, oppressed and overwhelmed by the size of the material they work with. It's caused by them not giving a shit about the story and being to lazy to fact check anything. It's caused by them being motivated by making the next big flashy moment to satiate their rule of kewl obsession, everything else be damned. And somehow, despite those 20+ years, fans are somehow able to keep track of the story better than Blizzard time and time again and are the ones who point out those errors. Despite them not being the ones who get paid for writing the story.

Likewise, drop the straw-man (that you're not even employing for the first time) as well, because no one said anything about demanding no errors in 20+ years. Criticizing errors as sloppy isn't a demand, it's criticism. Conflating the two makes no sense. And errors are sloppy by default. That's what makes them errors. If a writer was paying more attention the error wouldn't have happened in the first place. And, as has been addressed a bit in a previous paragraph, there's a monumental difference between some errors in 20+ years and the mountain of fuckups that is Warcraft. Where even retcons get retconned. Either to other things or to the pre-retcon state of things. Even in regards to Chronicles which were supposed to set the story straight. Because Blizzard is simply incapable of keeping their story straight. Because that would actually take effort.

[Aucald]

Jog my memory and remind me when exactly have I said that was the destiny Xe'ra wanted for him. Oh, that's right, I never said that. Because Xe'ra doesn't have the monopoly on chosen ones. Which I already made explicitly clear two posts ago:

Asked and answered already, then. Not sure why you came back to it, though.

You don't even know what you're arguing against at this point and, consequently, repeatedly drag the discussion back to a tangent that not only was never something I actually argued in favor of, but was outright denied by me. I'm not sure how that's supposed to work, but that's not exactly a solid basis for you accusing me of being wrong about lampshading.

Someone denies their role as a "Chosen One" by destroying their chooser, then claims that the entire notion of "Chosen Ones" is itself folly and that only individuals can act to do whatever it is that must be done, that neither fate/destiny are responsible for the outcome. You can't be a "Chosen One" in a situation where nothing chooses the one, as it were; that would pretty much make Illidan fall under the "Unchosen One" trope, the opposite of the "Chosen One."

Illidan became the jailer of a threat to the entire universe and as such its savior. That makes him a chosen one. Despite - stay with me here - that chosen one-ness >>>!!!NOT!!!<<< being what Xe'ra wanted for him. Because, it bears repeating, Xe'ra is not some kind of be all, end all of the chosen one trope.

Illidan chose to become Sargeras' jailer on his own recognizance, in defiance of what was attempted to be chosen for him by outside forces. The only way you could call Illidan a "Chosen One" is if you think any choice an individual makes is the source of such a status - which, as I implied previously, is *not* how the "Chosen One" trope works in fiction, or really anywhere else. Xe'ra was the representative of a greater force or destiny that enshrines "Chosen Ones," as she was a literal incarnation of the Light that was supposedly doing the choosing. Illidan refused the call (with violence), and therefore refused to be chosen. Or to put it more succinctly: Illidan wasn't chosen as Sargeras' jailer, he just decided to be for reasons of his own. Velen himself, the literal Prophet, says that destiny had no hand in anything that happened on Argus - which pretty much throws Chosen Ones out the proverbial window.

And if that is supposed to be the supposed spiteful narrative about Saurfang of mine, then sorry, but that's just more of you being lost in the argument, because what we're discussing isn't "my spiteful narrative". I'm not the one who brought up Saurfang being sad (even though his sadness is the driving force of his entire story in this expansion and without it he'd be likely dead by now) nor the one who proposed him becoming the Night Warrior. Me addressing some of your concerns about the logistics of that when they make little sense in context of a deity that already forced changes on people in the past doesn't magically make that "spiteful narrative" mine.

Considering you use the entire "Sadfang" meme constantly, it's yours for the purposes of this discussion. I'm not referring to the whole Night Warrior Saurfang thing as yours, despite the fact you are (I assume ironically) advocating for it - mostly out of spite, hence the reference to the "spiteful narrative." I don't think I'm lost here at all, I just think you want to have your proverbial cake, eat your cake, and then attempt to sell someone both cakes. Not really a workable strategy.

[Rivex]

N'zoth goes full blown Hentai on Sylvanas giving the fans what they really want to see....
Tyrande turns up to kill her only to get tentacled herself....good times

[Timotei]

Shitty story keeps being shitty and ends in a shitty way.

[Wangming]

I'll always be here to make fun of the human and orc jerkfest the warcraft lore turned into

Don't forget making fun of those who bend the facts to fit their own headcanon. My favorite part of your work.

[DemonHunter18]

when does patch go live anyways (US)???

[Selah]

Remember when making your predictions that Blizzard will likely leave us at a cliffhanger to set up 8.3... assuming there is one

Sylvanas will attack TB, but while all the forces are focused on defending TB from Sylvanas she's going to unleashed some kind of super weapon from the realm of death. Potentially pulling an Illidan and using some form of Azerite Sargerite Keystone to tear open a massive rift to the Shadowlands. We defeat the weapon and charge into the Shadowlands that has been (plot twist!) already invaded by the forces of N'zoth. Then the credits will roll for BfA and instead of 8.3 we're getting 9.0 before Christmas with a 2020 launch for the next expansion.

[Raetary]

One step further, Sylvanas is chosen by Goldrin and becomes the night warrior.

Lo'gosh Sylvanas, The Night Warrior.
<High Priestess of Elune>

[Mehrunes]

when does patch go live anyways (US)???

In 37 minutes, I think.

Lo'gosh Sylvanas, The Night Warrior.
<High Priestess of Elune>

Make her an Archdruid as well and Blizzard could just as well delete the Night Elves.

[Harbour]

Lo'gosh Sylvanas, The Night Warrior.
<High Priestess of Elune>

I threw up a bit.

[DemonHunter18]

In 37 minutes, I think.

thanks.

then the shitstorm begins xd

[Wangming]

thanks.

then the shitstorm begins xd

Tyrande: We all suffered from her actions. My people more than others. Let her stand trial in Teldrassil.

Would that be enouh for a shitshow?

[Mehrunes]

Tyrande: We all suffered from her actions. My people more than others. Let her stand trial in Teldrassil.

Would that be enouh for a shitshow?

No, to be a proper "not MoP 2.0" it can't be Tyrande saying this. Make it the leader of the Furbolgs in Darkshore or something.

[Otrew]

In 37 minutes, I think.

Nah. we have a 8 hour maintenance. It should go live in 7 hours.

[Varodoc]

I know this will never happen, but I thought I'd share in the 1% chance that it actually does happen.

So basically it's not Sylvanas who was playing a 5d plan, but Anduin. He gathers every major Horde leader in Thunder Bluff. Both loyalists and rebels are there, so Anduin seizes the opportunity to blow them all up in one swift strike. As the battle between the two sides is about to begin with, Jaina and the void elves start havoc in the city and the Vindicaar pierces through the very armies of the Horde with its laser. In the meantime, Tyrande leads her kaldorei to attack an undefended Orgrimmar and seize it for the Alliance. Done, Horde defeated, GG. These were Anduin's lies. That only Sylvanas wanted this war and that he would help Saurfang stop her.

[Mehrunes]

Nah. we have a 8 hour maintenance. It should go live in 7 hours.

Oh, yeah, didn't take maintenance into consideration.

[faithbane]

Nah. we have a 8 hour maintenance. It should go live in 7 hours.

I would check in every hour if you really want to get a head start tho. The last few "long" maintenances took a lot less then the time they scheduled it for.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Don't forget making fun of those who bend the facts to fit their own headcanon. My favorite part of your work.

You're going to make me blush, stop it you!


Edit: How surprising it, after all this time, after the slow motion train wreck that has been this entire xpac's narrative, that I still hope and feel hopeful that I see a spectacle instead of a clown car pileup?

I guess I never do truly learn a lesson.

- - - Updated - - -

I know this will never happen, but I thought I'd share in the 1% chance that it actually does happen.

So basically it's not Sylvanas who was playing a 5d plan, but Anduin. He gathers every major Horde leader in Thunder Bluff. Both loyalists and rebels are there, so Anduin seizes the opportunity to blow them all up in one swift strike. As the battle between the two sides is about to begin with, Jaina and the void elves start havoc in the city and the Vindicaar pierces through the very armies of the Horde with its laser. In the meantime, Tyrande leads her kaldorei to attack an undefended Orgrimmar and seize it for the Alliance. Done, Horde defeated, GG. These were Anduin's lies. That only Sylvanas wanted this war and that he would help Saurfang stop her.

I don't mind this, the survivors of the Horde, especcially if lead by Sylvanas suddenly have to put aside their differences and have to truly fight for survival.

I wonder how much Saurfang would cry then, who would he cry more to? The possibilities.

[DemonHunter18]

Nah. we have a 8 hour maintenance. It should go live in 7 hours.

Oh, yeah, didn't take maintenance into consideration.

WoW what a relief that is

[Moonrage]

I know this will never happen, but I thought I'd share in the 1% chance that it actually does happen.

So basically it's not Sylvanas who was playing a 5d plan, but Anduin. He gathers every major Horde leader in Thunder Bluff. Both loyalists and rebels are there, so Anduin seizes the opportunity to blow them all up in one swift strike. As the battle between the two sides is about to begin with, Jaina and the void elves start havoc in the city and the Vindicaar pierces through the very armies of the Horde with its laser. In the meantime, Tyrande leads her kaldorei to attack an undefended Orgrimmar and seize it for the Alliance. Done, Horde defeated, GG. These were Anduin's lies. That only Sylvanas wanted this war and that he would help Saurfang stop her.

They'd never actually do this... but one can dream...

- - - Updated - - -

Tyrande: We all suffered from her actions. My people more than others. Let her stand trial in Teldrassil.

Would that be enouh for a shitshow?

Let her stand trial in an incinerated stump?