Sylvanas conclusion is proof of bad writing *Spoilers*

[Syegfryed]

The stupid thing here isn't that Sylvanas accepted but that Saurfang even offered it in the first place. It makes no sense. Sylvanas obviously wins and everyone expected that to happen. Then what happens after saurfang dies? That wouldn't have stopped the war...a mak'gora isn't like you agree for whoever wins the fight to win the war or something so that no one else has to die. The war would have continued, the rebels would have attacked Org and lost. It made zero sense and only worked out because of terrible writing that forced sylvanas to say something completely idiotic for no reason.

he knew he was not going to win, her plot armor is to thick

its about send a message, trigger her until she say shit, was a desperate move trying to save more lives and it worked.

If Garrosh lost the siege she would lost again.

[tangers58]

How the hell did she lose???

Lor’themar said in 8.2 no less that Sylvanas had the support of the people. Anduin even says «Is that all?» to Saurfang when he sees their warcamp.

Now what am I trying to say? Sylvanas losing was fucking stupid. Anduin literally says the Alliance army is shattered, the night elves and worgen are stuck fighting in Darkshore

Sylvanas controls Orgrimmar, a city that literally was rebuilt by Garrosh to become an impenetrable fortress. Its not the Horde and Alliance vs Orcs and mercenarius anymore, Its the Alliance Vs the Horde.

So whats the problem? Blizzard butchered her character. There was NO reason for her to accept the Mak’gora, and even when whe kicked Saurfangs ass, they still made her throw it by saying that the horde is nothing. I dont care if she thinks so. Shes an icecold, calculated manipulator, she would have kept her mouth shut if she was in character.

She could have blight bombed their entire army from the comfort of their walls and send out the horde to clean up whats left. If Jainas ship return, just blow it to bits with the Bilgewater Cannon.

I am so tired of Blizzard lying constantly. «The Iron Horde will become the greatest threat we’ve ever faced». Literally every leader save 2 die before 8.1

«Greatest Legion invasion ever» Literally never leaves an Isle and gets their ass kicked by covert groups at the tomb compared to thousands of demons and archimonde killing everything and pouring out of the well

«Sylvanas will make Garrosh look like an amateur» LMAO! GARROSH MADE HER LOOK LIKE AN AMATEUR!

The terrible writing reeked of Christie Golden. Never should have let her touch the story in the game, having terrible books was bad enough.

[dippinsawse]

he knew he was not going to win, her plot armor is to thick

its about send a message, trigger her until she said shit, was a desperate move trying to save more lives, and it worked.

If Garrosh lost the siege she would lost again.

Yeah, that's terrible writing. "Saurfang knew that by fighting her she'd get mad and say she thinks the horde is poopoo and they would no longer suppport her," is insanely dumb. It's stupid to think he would believe that for one thing as he literally just said she inherited the original themes and beliefs of the horde and their problem with her up to this point was that she is ruthless, not that she hates the horde. It's also stupid to think he could somehow provoke her mid battle to blurt out something so moronic.

They clearly made it a point that their armies were too small and were going to lose. But let's say they would have won, it doesn't matter. It's still stupid from Saurfang's perspective to fight and die for no reason in mak'gora because his goal was to stop the war without more than one person dying which wouldn't have happened unless he won. Even if they would have won his motivation was ridiculous to challenge her to mak'gora and it is clear the writers were trying to portray it as Saurfang thinking their only chance was for him to win the battle but then they got lucky with sylvanas being a moron. Again, terrible writing.

[Casperite]

The terrible writing reeked of Christie Golden. Never should have let her touch the story in the game, having terrible books was bad enough.

The writing in all history of Warcraft has always been bad fantasy writing. Not sure why some of you are just realizing this now. It was always just a guilty pleasure, no one read any warcraft writing ever and thought "this is some award winning writing". Just because you do not like where the story went doesnt make it any worse than it always has been. Enjoy it for what it always has been, cheesy fantasy stories for simple entertainment.

[Florena]

But she is not an ice cold and calculated manipulator. She constantly makes poor emotional judgments in all the novels as well as throughout BfA. Her current character arc started with her committing suicide. I am sorry but you have grossly misjudged her. Sylvanas' incompetence has only not hampered her till this point cause everyone else was even more incompetent than her.

This stems back to Frozen Throne where she wasted a chance to kill Arthas because she wanted him to suffer and didn't just kill him, allowing time for Kel'thuzzad to save him. Or in War of Thorns more recently, when she should have just killed Malfurion herself rather than leave it to Saurfang and if she wanted to let Saurfang do it, she should have STOOD THERE AND WATCHED and made sure it happened. It was still a warzone where unpredictable things could happen, as evidenced by Tyrande showing up seconds after she left.

Sylvanas like many characters is smart when the script needs her to be and dumb when the script needs her to be. She is not consistently written as smart.

[rhorle]

The stupid thing here isn't that Sylvanas accepted but that Saurfang even offered it in the first place. It makes no sense. Sylvanas obviously wins and everyone expected that to happen. Then what happens after saurfang dies? That wouldn't have stopped the war...a mak'gora isn't like you agree for whoever wins the fight to win the war or something so that no one else has to die. The war would have continued, the rebels would have attacked Org and lost. It made zero sense and only worked out because of terrible writing that forced sylvanas to say something completely idiotic for no reason.

He was playing to honor. It is likely he knew there was no hope and just wanted his warriors death. Or he thought he could win. Or he knew he could goad her into doing something stupid like she ended up doing. He also could have caused a rebellion with in the city by playing to the "heart" of the horde.

This seems to be a case of "I don't like it" being confused with "It is stupid". There is nothing stupid about the writing or actions taken.

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Yeah, that's terrible writing. "Saurfang knew that by fighting her she'd get mad and say she thinks the horde is poopoo and they would no longer suppport her," is insanely dumb. It's stupid to think he would believe that for one thing as he literally just said she inherited the original themes and beliefs of the horde and their problem with her up to this point was that she is ruthless, not that she hates the horde. It's also stupid to think he could somehow provoke her mid battle to blurt out something so moronic.

So the horde was founded by breaking away from what he says Sylvanas led them back to. And it is terrible writing for him to tug on that feeling by trying to lure the horde away from that again? He wasn't planning on her saying something specific. He was planning on getting her to rage. Again this seems to be a case of you not liking something so it has to be dumb. Instead of just not liking it.

[Feanoro]

His plan relied on her throwing a tantrum, seems legit since that's pretty much been her thing for a loooooooong time now.

[Gurbz]

The writing in all history of Warcraft has always been bad fantasy writing. Not sure why some of you are just realizing this now. It was always just a guilty pleasure, no one read any warcraft writing ever and thought "this is some award winning writing". Just because you do not like where the story went doesnt make it any worse than it always has been. Enjoy it for what it always has been, cheesy fantasy stories for simple entertainment.

This. All of this. The problem isn't that the writing is bad, because its not. Cheesy, simple, and more that a little over the top? Absolutely. But it's executed well for what it is. Most of the Blizzard creative team have said they are all huge comic book lovers, and that's the level of writing we are getting. Old school comic book. Which is fine if you accept it for what it is.

The problem is that a lot of the people complaining don't accept that. They want Tolkien level "Next Great Fantasy Novel" level writing. That is not what the Warcraft franchise is or has ever been. So really it isn't that the writing is bad. Its that the people complaining didn't get the story they wanted so everything not that is crap.

[Khaza-R]

This stems back to Frozen Throne where she wasted a chance to kill Arthas because she wanted him to suffer and didn't just kill him, allowing time for Kel'thuzzad to save him. Or in War of Thorns more recently, when she should have just killed Malfurion herself rather than leave it to Saurfang and if she wanted to let Saurfang do it, she should have STOOD THERE AND WATCHED and made sure it happened. It was still a warzone where unpredictable things could happen, as evidenced by Tyrande showing up seconds after she left.

Sylvanas like many characters is smart when the script needs her to be and dumb when the script needs her to be. She is not consistently written as smart.

Or where she rushes after Arthas in the Halls of Reflection and almost gets herself killed.

[Destinas]

In my opinion, it's not out of character for her, but it's also not written well.

She's been driven by anger and self-preservation since Arthas raised her. It makes sense that she would become more demanding and haughty as soon as she had an entire faction under her control, but they also didn't really show much of her machinations the entire time.

Last time we really saw Sylvanas, she was hunting Saurfang, imprisoning Baine, and torturing Derek. She was walking away with Ashvane, and taking Xal'atath with her. It's obvious that she had some sort of plan, since Nathanos was given Xal'atath, using it like a compass to the exact spot where Naz'jatar would be, where Ashvane was commanding the Naga. Sylvanas now mentions a deal with Azshara - is this linked with her deal with Helya? She got that lantern to enslave Eyir, but we never found out what Sylvanas' end of the bargain was that Helya reminded her of when we encountered them.

It also makes sense that she is done with the Horde now, since she doesn't really need them anymore if she's trying to get N'Zoth to kill everyone (where "he too will serve Death" in the end). However, it was an abrupt way to tell that story, since she's only made a few pissy cameos the entirety of BfA up until that point.

Otherwise, though, it didn't surprise me. It's just written like the rest of BfA - it makes sense here and there, but it's also filled with holes where they told the story, instead of showing it.

[rhorle]

The terrible writing reeked of Christie Golden. Never should have let her touch the story in the game, having terrible books was bad enough.

She is just the current scapegoat. She is no better or worse. You have all been discussing terrible writing for years so it clear has hooked you anyways.

[bledgor]

It was pretty shit tier writing, and the ONLY thing saving it from complete garbage that even a trash panda wouldn't touch is the loyalist scene. That being said I don't find it to be good writing, they just left themselves a way to make it not shit writing.

I was really hoping my theory of Azeroth being corrupted and Slyvanas using Azerite to blow/kill the planet and us (horde and ally) having to invade a new world to find a home was the way they go. That way we could end faction war while destroying the current power structure, new threats, new world to explore, and when tied with the level squish basically a way to do WoW 2.0 without having an actual wow 2. Heck you can even do a moderate time skip if you want with it, and it allows Sylvanas to be that morally grey we were teased, because she did good in stopping an old god, but she literally killed our home/planet in the process.

[Shakana]

lol you actually expect good writing from blizzard? They've got their head stuck up their own asses and have been butchering their characters personality as well as literally butchering the character themselves for so long. It's shit writing, that's all it is and that's all you'll get. They still haven't even told us who or what told vol'jin to appoint Sylvanas as the warchief.

blizzard writing is all about vague bullshit and keeping the end goal a mystery. It's the shock/surprise factor these people ride their boat on.

You talk like blizzard don't have one of the best lores ever... Laughable.

Maybe you're trying to say Activision-blizzard.

[lockybalboa]

She is the dream girl of countless horny teenage boys and the top merchandise mover so it is totally understandable why Blizzard couldn't kill her off. Blizzard will forcibly turn her into Kerrigan 2.0 the savior of all of Azeroth and all of Alliance will kowtow to her as the messiah at the end.


Fuck this trash-tier garbage seriously. My 6 year old nephew could write a better story.

[dippinsawse]

He was playing to honor. It is likely he knew there was no hope and just wanted his warriors death. Or he thought he could win. Or he knew he could goad her into doing something stupid like she ended up doing. He also could have caused a rebellion with in the city by playing to the "heart" of the horde.

This seems to be a case of "I don't like it" being confused with "It is stupid". There is nothing stupid about the writing or actions taken.

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So the horde was founded by breaking away from what he says Sylvanas led them back to. And it is terrible writing for him to tug on that feeling by trying to lure the horde away from that again? He wasn't planning on her saying something specific. He was planning on getting her to rage. Again this seems to be a case of you not liking something so it has to be dumb. Instead of just not liking it.

Yes that makes no sense. He already has a rebel army. They chose sides and are about to literally kill each other based on the lines that were already drawn between the horde. If he challenged her and lost a mak'gora that would be EVEN WORSE for that goal because it would prove his side is weak and she is the rightful ruler. It does the opposite of what you are saying his goal was.

To clarify, I was not saying his plan was for her to say something stupid, learn to read. I was replying to someone who was saying that was her goal. What I believe happened is that saurfang was taking a long shot to win the war by beating her in mak'gora before anyone else had to die. He knew he was likely going to lose but to him he'd rather die trying and possibly save lives. That is the only part of this that makes some sense at all. What is lazy writing and doesn't make sense is that the war was ended by a stupid revelation of sylvanas being a moron and blurting on the worst thing she could have for no reason because that's what the writers wanted to happen rather than it making sense. It's on the level of hagrid in harry potter being tricked into revealing information to people all the time because he's too stupid to keep his mouth shut but in this case sylvanas is being portrayed as a 4D chess mastermind so it is extremely silly.

[Fayenoor]

Yes that makes no sense. He already has a rebel army. They chose sides and are about to literally kill each other based on the lines that were already drawn between the horde. If he challenged her and lost a mak'gora that would be EVEN WORSE for that goal because it would prove his side is weak and she is the rightful ruler. It does the opposite of what you are saying his goal was.

To clarify, I was not saying his plan was for her to say something stupid, learn to read. I was replying to someone who was saying that was her goal. What I believe happened is that saurfang was taking a long shot to win the war by beating her in mak'gora before anyone else had to die. He knew he was likely going to lose but to him he'd rather die trying and possibly save lives. That is the only part of this that makes some sense at all. What is lazy writing and doesn't make sense is that the war was ended by a stupid revelation of sylvanas being a moron and blurting on the worst thing she could have for no reason because that's what the writers wanted to happen rather than it making sense. It's on the level of hagrid in harry potter being tricked into revealing information to people all the time because he's too stupid to keep his mouth shut but in this case sylvanas is being portrayed as a 4D chess mastermind so it is extremely silly.

I dont think he was plannin on doing a Makgora. But when they laid siege on Org, he realized the magnitude of what he was doing. Horde fighting horde. "Some of these orcs are my brothers". So, he decided on the Makgora as a way to save the bloodbath on the spur.

And Thrall pretty much said - "You cant win". He still went ahead. So he had literally given up and didnt want to see any other Orc die due to his stupidity.

[dippinsawse]

I dont think he was plannin on doing a Makgora. But when they laid siege on Org, he realized the magnitude of what he was doing. Horde fighting horde. "Some of these orcs are my brothers". So, he decided on the Makgora as a way to save the bloodbath on the spur.

And Thrall pretty much said - "You cant win". He still went ahead. So he had literally given up and didnt want to see any other Orc die due to his stupidity.

That's literally what I said in the thing you replied to.

[Syegfryed]

Yeah, that's terrible writing. "Saurfang knew that by fighting her she'd get mad and say she thinks the horde is poopoo and they would no longer suppport her," is insanely dumb. It's stupid to think he would believe that for one thing as he literally just said she inherited the original themes and beliefs of the horde and their problem with her up to this point was that she is ruthless, not that she hates the horde. It's also stupid to think he could somehow provoke her mid battle to blurt out something so moronic.

why? she show to go in a outburst of rage if triggered like in Teldrassil, he just had to do that, if a dying elf did why he could not? aparently you just have to say hope.

They clearly made it a point that their armies were too small and were going to lose.

didn't see that, is aw how many lives would be lost.

But let's say they would have won, it doesn't matter.

It's still stupid from Saurfang's perspective to fight and die for no reason in mak'gora because his goal was to stop the war without more than one person dying which wouldn't have happened unless he won

.

He died for a reason

if he won, good, if he lostwas also good, was a win win scenario

Even if they would have won his motivation was ridiculous to challenge her to mak'gora

Why? he think she is a bad leader, she did shit and challenge her for the position, its how it works

and it is clear the writers were trying to portray it as Saurfang thinking their only chance was for him to win the battle but then they got lucky with sylvanas being a moron. Again, terrible writing.

how so? he knew he was going to last, thrall said that, he knew that, thats why he said only one more needed to die, him.

[TheVaryag]

How the hell did she lose???

Lor’themar said in 8.2 no less that Sylvanas had the support of the people. Anduin even says «Is that all?» to Saurfang when he sees their warcamp.

Now what am I trying to say? Sylvanas losing was fucking stupid. Anduin literally says the Alliance army is shattered, the night elves and worgen are stuck fighting in Darkshore

Sylvanas controls Orgrimmar, a city that literally was rebuilt by Garrosh to become an impenetrable fortress. Its not the Horde and Alliance vs Orcs and mercenarius anymore, Its the Alliance Vs the Horde.

So whats the problem? Blizzard butchered her character. There was NO reason for her to accept the Mak’gora, and even when whe kicked Saurfangs ass, they still made her throw it by saying that the horde is nothing. I dont care if she thinks so. Shes an icecold, calculated manipulator, she would have kept her mouth shut if she was in character.

She could have blight bombed their entire army from the comfort of their walls and send out the horde to clean up whats left. If Jainas ship return, just blow it to bits with the Bilgewater Cannon.

I am so tired of Blizzard lying constantly. «The Iron Horde will become the greatest threat we’ve ever faced». Literally every leader save 2 die before 8.1

«Greatest Legion invasion ever» Literally never leaves an Isle and gets their ass kicked by covert groups at the tomb compared to thousands of demons and archimonde killing everything and pouring out of the well

«Sylvanas will make Garrosh look like an amateur» LMAO! GARROSH MADE HER LOOK LIKE AN AMATEUR!

Another rebellion and you're surprised we won? It was innevitable Sylvanas wouldn't keep the position, just as you could've been sure Garrosh was getting removed from that position.

The one thing I'll point out Is If she didn't accept the Mak'gore she would've already lost. Refusing a Mak'gora is great dishonor and NO MATTER her personal honor or what she thinks of honor. Honor is important to the Horde and refusing is basically becoming an exile right there and then. So she had no choice, Im glad Saurfang did that. A year and a few months too late, but finally he did.

I'm glad she's gone and not Warchief anymore, but more puzzling is who is Warchief right now... I really hope they don't leave that as a secret up to 9.0 cause that'll piss me the fudge off. "Oh look the entire Horde is leaderless, great.. whose gonna lead us, that dagger eared guy with one eye?" I also have to point out: THRALL FOR WARCHIEF.

But seriously, do et.

Anyway, so this is the end of BfA. No 8.3 unless It's a prelude to the next expansion which at that point I will count It as a patch for the next expansion. So good job screwing up this expansion and doing the same thing you did to WoD, buthering It early.

[Al Gorefiend]

How the hell did she lose???

Lor’themar said in 8.2 no less that Sylvanas had the support of the people. Anduin even says «Is that all?» to Saurfang when he sees their warcamp.

Now what am I trying to say? Sylvanas losing was fucking stupid. Anduin literally says the Alliance army is shattered, the night elves and worgen are stuck fighting in Darkshore

Sylvanas controls Orgrimmar, a city that literally was rebuilt by Garrosh to become an impenetrable fortress. Its not the Horde and Alliance vs Orcs and mercenarius anymore, Its the Alliance Vs the Horde.

So whats the problem? Blizzard butchered her character. There was NO reason for her to accept the Mak’gora, and even when whe kicked Saurfangs ass, they still made her throw it by saying that the horde is nothing. I dont care if she thinks so. Shes an icecold, calculated manipulator, she would have kept her mouth shut if she was in character.

She could have blight bombed their entire army from the comfort of their walls and send out the horde to clean up whats left. If Jainas ship return, just blow it to bits with the Bilgewater Cannon.

I am so tired of Blizzard lying constantly. «The Iron Horde will become the greatest threat we’ve ever faced». Literally every leader save 2 die before 8.1

«Greatest Legion invasion ever» Literally never leaves an Isle and gets their ass kicked by covert groups at the tomb compared to thousands of demons and archimonde killing everything and pouring out of the well

«Sylvanas will make Garrosh look like an amateur» LMAO! GARROSH MADE HER LOOK LIKE AN AMATEUR!

Sylvanas should have said “YOUR Horde is nothing”. Directed to Saurfang and Thrall. As in, she intended and continues to break the cycle of Shamanism and “Honor” and whatnot.

I was really excited to see the Horde veer into a more radical, sinister design, with the Orcs failing and bringing the Tauren down with them. Basically the Forsaken, Elves and Zandalari becoming the new Big 3 of the Horde.

It’d be cool to see her assimilating Orcs into a Forsaken dominated faction.

Furthermore, if Blizzard’s excuse for why the Forsaken players are suddenly anti-Sylvanas for the sake of gameplay, it better not be “hur Sylvanas betrayed the Horde we love da Horde” no, hell no. The Forsaken were shoehorned into being Sylvanas’ lackies since Vanilla. There simply weren’t any contributions to the Horde as an entirety from the Forsaken since Northrend.