Garrosh vs. Sylvanas

[Arikara]

Garrosh never filled any kind of pragmatic leader role. He was a fool from his introduction in BC and all the way up to his death, and never managed to display any redeeming qualities in-between.

Despite this, he was a good villain. Love to hate him and all that. Sylvanas has none of that. Her fear of death explains how she has gotten this way, sure, but I don't really give a shit about her. She's a rabid dog that needs to be put down.

[Hyral]

Garrosh a gud boy. He din du nuffin.

He really was a much more interesting character that should have not been killed off so early. He was the second best thing to come from WoW after Varian. So much wasted orcish human potential in their deaths.

Sylvanas is just being her usual self. I don't understand how people thought she genuinely cared about anyone after years of WC3 and all lore saying she literally does not care about anyone. Her making deals left and right betraying and getting everyone killed is perfectly in character though her doing an oopsie while fighting Saurfang was really dumb. Then again she's the person who lost her one chance at killing Arthas at his weakest because she was too busy with her villain monologue, and also the person who thought she could control a dreadlord. Her flaw has always been her hubris. She's been a consistent character in BfA, unfortunately she's just not an interesting character.

[Aleksej89]

She started a war during peacetime after convincing Saurfang that 50 years of peace wouldn't have been worth it because Genn did an oopsie doopsie, and mused in her own head/to trusted subordinates that she wanted to basically make all the Alliance undead. Or at least Stormwind. Yeah, no idea what her intentions were there.

We dunno why is she doing all that and more.
Does she want to save her own ass?
Does she get all hot from causing pain?
Is it some grand anti old-gold plan?
Does she also wanna betray that death thing she keeps talking about?
Is that the same death as yogg-saron mentioned (no king rules forever - only death is eternal)?

Etc etc.
Garrosh had no advanced motives besides... well father issues and just lack of brain power.
We do not know what sylvanas actually wants and why shes doing it so imho its hard to judge yet.

[derpkitteh]

i mean, garrosh without contest.

sylvanas' goal is everyone dying. garrosh wanted a orc-dominated world. everyone but orcs would be gone, but it'd be an orc paradise at least.

[Syegfryed]

We dunno why is she doing all that and more.
Does she want to save her own ass?
Does she get all hot from causing pain?
Is it some grand anti old-gold plan?
Does she also wanna betray that death thing she keeps talking about?
Is that the same death as yogg-saron mentioned (no king rules forever - only death is eternal)?

Etc etc.
Garrosh had no advanced motives besides... well father issues and just lack of brain power.
We do not know what sylvanas actually wants and why shes doing it so imho its hard to judge yet.

we do know she is doing her own thing with the entity of death, she want power and immortality.

Garrosh wanted kalindor plus the horde for the horde

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sylvanas' goal is everyone dying. garrosh wanted a orc-dominated world. everyone but orcs would be gone, but it'd be an orc paradise at least.

not rly orcs, just anyone who sworn blind loyalty

[Frinata]

Garrosh did nothing wrong, and his only mistake was to love the horde too much

Sylvanas in other hand is a failure that always run away and now developed the team rocket escape and she only love death and nathanos, like a goth bitch

...You're kidding, right?

Garrosh did everything wrong that he could of done wrong.

Maybe that's a bit over the top, perhaps the best thing to say, that he has canonicly done (So no, Stonetalon DOES NOT count), is be a WARchief, and did his best to secure resources and peace for The Horde.

But that went out the window really quick. He segregated Orgrimmar, kicked out the Darkspear from the city and used them with the same disregard for life that the Russians once did. He did very much the same with the Forsaken, expecting them to take a City, both without using a weapon (Which I'll grant is a normal request, given that the weapon is effectively a walking war crime), and not condoning the use of the Val'kyr, which was the only way for Forskaen propegation, something of which Garrosh was unconcerned of, so again, callous disregard for the wellbeing of his allies.

Cairne wasn't his fault, though it could be argued he shouldn't of agreed to the Mok'gora in the first place. I'll leave that alone as it can't be used as a negative towards Garrosh. He abused the Blood Elf's situation in Dalaran and betrayed the neutrality the Sunreavers were in agreement to, to stage an assault on Darnassus. And finally, and by all means not least, in his tenure as Warchief of the Horde, he attempted to use and abuse the powers of an Old God, and started to fall victim to it before we knocked him off his throne. (Yes, I know he never became a pawn, but given what he says and does during his fight, it's easy enough to say Garrosh did not have the kind of mindset to resist those whispers).

His first act when set to defend himself was to basicly laugh in their face, and then head off to an alternate Draenor, not to live in exile, but to take over the Azeroth he just got kicked off of.


Garrosh did everything wrong.

[Life-Binder]

tune in for the next episode when she get triggered and ruins everything again

ruin everything like get raided in your own city and get puit into chains for a panda trial ? xD


like I said, checkers vs chess

Sylvanas knows exactly what her endgame is and how she gets there and the Horde/warchief seat isnt part of that

Garry just assumed his big meaty orc fists would be enough

[Syegfryed]

...You're kidding, right?

its a well know meme

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ruin everything like get raided in your own city and get puit into chains for a panda trial ? xD


like I said, checkers vs chess

Sylvanas knows exactly what her endgame is and how she gets there and the Horde/warchief seat isnt part of that

Garry just assumed his big meaty orc fists would be enough

sure, just saying im loving all of you eating all the previous words, she bailing out like you guys had pretty much certain that she would never go away and would win and kill the rebels

cannot wait to see the Kerrigan showing up later

[Life-Binder]

she bailing out like you guys had pretty much certain that she would never go,away and would win and the kill the rebels

dont know who these "guys" are, I assume you just made that up like everything you say about Jesus Garrosh xD



Sylvanas did exactly what I like her doing: be badass-edgy, show off cool powers, kill Saurfang, flip off Blaines and Blanduins Hordiance and go do Death-related things, bringing us closer to a glorious Death/Shadowlands expansion


and she can afford to be impulsive as much as she wants to, cause she always has backup/contingency already in place, working towards the bigger picture/her end goal

tbh its pretty nice to be able say what you really think and feel instead of bottling it all up inside

like if she hates the Horde and being with them and their Alliance pals - then she can just say so, cause she doesnt need to depend on it (unlike Garry, who lost because he lost the Horde)

[Jotaux]

Garrosh was a joke, crying in outlands till Thrall came and brought him out of his depression. He was so immature that many people still think today that Thrall is older than him when Garrosh is at least 6 years older than Thrall. Thrall lifts this pathetic excuse for an Orc out of the gutter and Garrosh has the audacity to challenge him for leadership of the Horde? Then Saurfang had to babysit the guy in Northrend because Garrosh was too dumb to know how to run a war campaign.

At this point we have the moment where Thrall failed the horde. He could have chosen anyone, or anything as the next warchief and it would have been a better choice. To his credit Thrall does lament that Saurfang the Younger was dead because that was the ideal candidate. So he picked Garrosh, and the idiot unknowingly cheats in his duel. Easy fix, Garrosh could have just done the honourable thing and stepped down. Instead he doubles down and throws a tantrum. His Cata and Mop arc are all about him following his father's mistakes. Some how under his failing leadership he takes the more cohesive faction and splinters it. Then he flees to AU draenor and creates the Iron Horde. We ROFLSTOMP the iron horde. It was embarrassing. Thrall holds back his entire duel with Garrosh and then gets fed up and kills him. Thrall loses his connection to the elements because of the guilt he feels over Garrosh.

[Wildberry]

...You're kidding, right?

Pretty much everything about your post is factually inaccurate, misleading, or otherwise useless here.

He segregated Orgrimmar

What tangible harm was done in segregating Orgrimmar? Can you demonstrate any? Beyond that, look at racial representation in Orgrimmar under Garrosh, in comparison to racial representation in Orgrimmar under Thrall. The Trolls kept their district, the Tauren & Goblins both gained one.

kicked out the Darkspear from the city

Factually inaccurate, and this would be contradicting by your claim that Orgrimmar was segregated. Segregation and expulsion can't coexist at the same time.

Either way, here's the proof that you're wrong:

Vision of Garrosh Hellscream says: ... Go slink away with the rest of your kind in the slums.

--"More Than Expected"

Vol'jin says: The Darkspear are 'ere because I led dem here...

--"More Than Expected"

Vol'jin willingly led his people away from the city, they were not kicked out.

used them with the same disregard for life that the Russians once did.

[Citation Needed]

He did very much the same with the Forsaken,

Wrong. You're referring to a cherry picked a single line from "Edge of Night," divorced from all context.

"The door is wedged open; now it must be kicked down. This is what your kind is good for."

--"Edge of Night," p2

Alone, that's pretty damning. Fortunately, that's not the entirety of the statement, and it'd be disingenuous to try and construct a point from that alone. Garrosh continues and says:

"You're already corpses, nearly impossible to kill..."

--"Edge of Night," p2

This is in conjunction with a passage from earlier in the story which reads:

"Forwar—" the marshal cried, his command cut short as a musketball shattered his lower jaw. ... The marshal toppled over, careening down a pile of rubble like a sack of cordwood, coming to rest in the thick mud below. ... Any normal man would've been dead for sure, but being that the marshal was already dead, he soon clawed his way up from the mud, spitting coagulated blood and ichor from the remains of his face.

--"Edge of Night," p2

For a scenario like breaching the Greymane Wall, the Forsaken are extremely useful, since shots that would kill the living only slow them down. That's not using them as fodder, that's using them where it makes sense to do so.

not condoning the use of the Val'kyr, which was the only way for Forskaen propegation,

He didn't condone the Val'kyr, sure. Did he ban them, though? No, obviously not, because they're still in use (openly, unlike the New Plague) after Garrosh assigns High Warlord Cromush to watch Sylvanas. In fact, Cromush is the one who demands the Val'kyr resurrect Sylvanas ("Cities in Dust").

He abused the Blood Elf's situation in Dalaran and betrayed the neutrality the Sunreavers were in agreement to, to stage an assault on Darnassus.

Considering Dalaran willingly betrayed their own neutrality by sending reinforcements to Theramore, this literally does not matter at all.

And finally, and by all means not least, in his tenure as Warchief of the Horde, he attempted to use and abuse the powers of an Old God, and started to fall victim to it before we knocked him off his throne. (Yes, I know he never became a pawn, but given what he says and does during his fight, it's easy enough to say Garrosh did not have the kind of mindset to resist those whispers).

This part is comical, because the bit you put in parenthesis is basically a way to preempt people calling you out for being 100% incorrect on this. It's actually not easy enough to say that, you have zero proof that this is the case, and Blizzard's own statements disagree with you on the matter.

The art sure looks like he's corrupted, but he's using the sha. Like wielding a hammer. He's in control.

--Twitter, Dave Kosak


And look here, we have another ridiculously biased, and completely factually inaccurate anti-Garrosh poster. What a surprise!

Thrall lifts this pathetic excuse for an Orc out of the gutter and Garrosh has the audacity to challenge him for leadership of the Horde?

See, I could've sworn this had far more to do with the fact that Thrall:
-Allowed Alliance incursions into Horde territory to go without an official response
-Left the Horde economically dependent upon a hostile foreign power in the name of peace
-Allowed his people to face starvation in near barren lands in the name of peace
etc.
("Heart of War," "Glory")

Thrall's Horde, by the time Garrosh was in the picture, was literally falling apart. This is something that even Thrall realized early enough into WotLK. His record is indefensible, and to act like it's the crime of the century for Garrosh to have challenged Thrall's clearly failing leadership is absurd.

Then Saurfang had to babysit the guy in Northrend because Garrosh was too dumb to know how to run a war campaign.

Ah yes, one instance where Saurfang did something that benefitted Garrosh and suddenly he's "babysitting Garrosh in Northrend, because Garrosh doesn't know how to run a war campaign."

It's bad enough that every single piece of text evidence disagrees with you here, but to make matters worse, I know I've had to uhh.. hold your hand while going through the reality of this situation, because it turns out that you're just too dishonest to know how to interpret evidence :^)

I'm not even going to bother explaining this time around, I'll just opt for beating you over the head with quotes that disprove your point here:

For a soldier of the Horde, loss is absolute. Loss means death and there is no negotiation or interpretation with death. One can only hope that the manner of their death was honorable.

But victory... Victory can mean many things. As you have probably noticed, the Kor'kron are there in full force. The Warchief has sent his elite guard to help secure victory in Northrend. They, along with you and other heroes, are pushing the Lich King and his forces towards an inevitable conclusion. With each challenge you overcome, we are one step closer to ridding our world of Arthas and the Scourge.

And therein lays the dilemma. For you see, our forces in Northrend work under the auspices of young Hellscream. Each victory bolsters the morale of the Horde forces here, which carries through to the rest of Azeroth.

It is unfortunate, then, that Hellscream employs such savage tactics. As victory approaches, Hellscream gains further justification for his methods, which in turn brings us closer to a place we have not been in many years: a dark place.

--"Letter From Saurfang"

And yet, Cairne Could not argue with Garrosh's success and popularity, nor the joyful zeal and passion with which the Horde responded to him...

there was no denying the fact that he had led incursions that had been unqualified successes. He had brought back to the Horde a fierce sense of pride and fire for battle. He had managed, every time, to turn what looked like lunacy into a rousing success.

Cairne was too intelligent to dismiss this as coincidence or accident. So bold he could be called reckless Garrosh might be, but recklessness did not yield the results that Grom's son had gotten. Garrosh had been exactly what the Horde needed at what was arguably its darkest, most vulnerable hour, and Cairne was willing to give the boy that.

--The Shattering, p12-3

This will never not be canon.

[Nathreim]

Garrosh was better. None of what happened in BFA makes a lick of sense.

[Syegfryed]

dont know who these "guys" are, I assume you just made that up like everything you say about Jesus Garrosh xD

i remember everyone saying she would not lost and would never leave warchief position.

Sylvanas did exactly what I like her doing: be badass-edgy, show off cool powers, kill Saurfang, flip off Blaines and Blanduins Hordiance and go do Death-related things, bringing us closer to a glorious Death/Shadowlands expansion

you mean get triggered, scream like a bitch and run away like what she do best

and she can afford to be impulsive as much as she wants to, cause she always has backup/contingency already in place, working towards the bigger picture/her end goal

just like that teenager girl that father have the money to back up everything, pure gold

like if she hates the Horde and being with them and their Alliance pals - then she can just say so, cause she doesnt need to depend on it (unlike Garry, who lost because he lost the Horde)

i also remember all the gems of: "she is doing what is best for the horde!1!11, cause she care for the horde!1!! and all those pearls

[Life-Binder]

I think you're just mad that Garry was dumb enough to sit in sieged OG and become a loot pinata ^^


But what else to expect from a crying failure who thinks orcs are a master race

[Syegfryed]

@Wildberry can we consider the awful thrall leadership in wow related to his age and his disconnection to the general orc people, since he grow with humans and was blind by the idea of peace?

i wonder if things have changed since he grow up more, get schooled by Garrosh and had actually orchish interaction, at lest his model is not like a green human anymore, prob not, but one can hope

At this point we have the moment where Thrall failed the horde. He could have chosen anyone, or anything as the next warchief and it would have been a better choice.

Like who? no one else would do a better job, the only problem it was the counselors who should support him turned their back and ostracize him

to put a parallel, Garrosh was on the edge to win the faction war, before Vol'jin rebelled, Sylvanas was on the edge to lose it.

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I think you're just mad that Garry was dumb enough to sit in sieged OG and become a loot pinata ^^

not rly, it rly didn't matter since he form the iron horde anyway, but one could think that she being a mastermind she would have won that

i dunno just enjoying how she ditch her supports who were fooled thinking she care

But what else to expect from a crying failure who thinks orcs are a master race

i don't think that, i just think elves are the shittiest race

[Burning4]

Garrosh had actual defined goals instead of nebulous evil. I think that makes him better by default. He wanted to make orcs better again, we understood that, it drove his actions and the plot. Windrunner playing 7D chess to be the ultimate clever villain is only coming off this way because the writers don't have a whole lot actually thought out and they have to constantly magically hand wave her actions with, "it is all part of her clever plan." So mysterious. No, its lazy and its full of plot holes because they never wrote or even thought about what could go in those holes to make the story work. Plot holes exists because they are unfinished holes in the story.

[TheImperios]

Garrosh was the better villain overall, he had a more well explained and compelling fall and more charisma. I also have a soft spot for fanatic villains, whether it be the Scarlet Crusade, Judge Claude Frollo, or the Imperium of Man.

But Sylvanas I suppose was a better foil for the Alliance + Honour gang, because of how dishonourable the pathetic rat was.

[RadasNoir]

Garrosh at least had an identifiable and relatable motivation from the get go, even if his methods were extreme.

With Sylvanas, we still don't even really know what that motivation is, beyond apparently wanting to kill as many people as possible. At this point, it's really hard to believe that her motivation will somehow make all the death and destruction she caused understandable or justified.

[Eazy]

No poll in this thread makes my little frustrated.

[Reinhart11]

Sylvanas was a decent character before she became Warchief. She was certainly more interesting and less cringe worthy at least to me, compared to characters like Thrall, Cairne in WoW, or Voljin. The character also made sense, up until Before the Storm and BfA. With Before the Storm and BfA the character was butchered the same way Saurfang was and others were.

So i say Pre Before the Storm / BfA Sylvanas was as good as Garrosh. Sylvanas in BfA i wouldn't even consider to be the same character as before. Far too stupid, implausible and inconsistent. Prime example for a badly written character that makes no sense.