Time to decide a side

[Dagoth Ur]

There can be no satisfying resolution to faction conflict. There clearly is an issue with the Horde cast. But you are better off with neutral conflicts were the remaining Horde cast gets to at least act than with faction conflicts were more of your cast is likely to get villain batted and killed or removed from the faction.

Faction conflict having no resolution I put in the same basket as monster of the week one always having the exact same conclusion - we win. It's just limitations of a medium we're playing on. Unless you're that type of player that just needs that pat on the back after everything is over, I don't think this should matter that much.

Also, I should have probably specified that I mainly think of the journey part of the faction conflict, which if properly done, would always be superior in my mind to the alternative one. Faction war just seems more flexible to me, but considering writers always seems to do the exact same type of story every time it's its turn to go, I'm sure no one will agree with me there. But eh, it's not my fault they can't think of anything else apart from Horde rebelling & Alliance forgiving when it comes to faction war. I think there's definitely more potential there, which we'll probably never know now.

[Reinhart11]

I'm of two minds on it. I don't think they let her live at the end of Eternal Palace just so they could drop her in 8.3. She's in cahoots with N'zoth now, btu she was in cahoots with Sargeras before and she turned on him too. I'm hoping, though doubt it, that she and Sylvanas team up in the next one of these, if only because I think Azshara is far more able to carry an expansion, since she's much more of the hammy evil type whereas save for Lordaeron they haven't really let Sylvanas ham it up in favor of verbalizing myspace posts circa 2004.

Of course, Azshara is a schemer and mainly in for herself. So she is somewhat alike Sylvanas in certain aspects. The rampant feminism at Blizzard probably is a good chance for Azshara to survive.

But the question is, how will they develop Azshara if she gets more attention and becomes the focus of an expansion. More attention for a character is pretty dangerous these days, just looking at Saurfang and Sylvanas for example. Azshara, either as a villain, or a anti hero or even a hero, all of these possibilities, looking at how other villainous characters or racial leaders were handled by the writing team(big villains were pretty much incompetent idiots since Classic, racial leaders are unbearable except for Gallywix since BfA), spell pretty much doom for her as a character i think.

And believe me when i say, that makes me sad. Naga are one of my favourite races next to Orcs and TFT Blood Elves and they wasted Naga like they waste any other race pretty much.

[Kumorii]

Sylvanas because as the story have shown us so far is that we simply get more insight in the story, although very little.

Alliance side I dunno, but since the options are Tyrande/Greymane vs Anduin, I would choose Tyrande/Greymane. Any peace option is frankly a boring option.

[Fetus Rex]

If you believe that then you should view her as a illegitimate warchief

Why? Sure, she broke the oath to Garrosh but he is no more. When Sylvanas became Warchief a new Blood Oath was formed.

[Super Dickmann]

But the question is, how will they develop Azshara if she gets more attention and becomes the focus of an expansion. More attention for a character is pretty dangerous these days, just looking at Saurfang and Sylvanas for example. Azshara, either as a villain, or a anti hero or even a hero, all of these possibilities, looking at how other villainous characters or racial leaders were handled by the writing team(big villains were pretty much incompetent idiots since Classic, racial leaders are unbearable except for Gallywix since BfA), spell pretty much doom for her as a character i think.

Honestly, I think they handled Azshara about as well as they could have in an expansion that denied her the screen time she deserved. This is a character who is 90% style and they got that part down pat. Where she suffered was in the gameplay requirements imposed upon her - A) Her zone is just an island instead of a continent B) Her zone is a x.2 island which means it must have inexplicable rep factions running around and C) She is a Raid Boss so she must fail. But all that could easily be corrected with just some visual and narrative changes, like having you see a giant cityscape past the water wall like you could see in the Argus skyline with Mac'aree, or having Azshara have deliberately let the Ankoans and gilblins last so they could guide the players to her palace and do the thing. Everything else is standard WoW villain fare that's just how the medium works.

Mind, with Jaina they showed a willingness to not even have you actually defeat a raid boss and I think that would've been much better used on Azshara. She also has more genuine anti-villain/anti-hero potential, in her grudgingly working with the players because she doesn't want Sylvanas/Death/The Void Lords to destroy the world she means to rule. That'd be a fun detour and I think she's the kind of character who has enough fan backing to make it possible. Of course, hopefully ending with the night elves actually getting to face her in full.

@Nymrohd

Your argument is a fundamentally hypocritical one because you steelman the Monster of the Week stories while only accepting the worst examples of the faction conflict. Yes, the Monster of the Week stories could end with losses much like how the faction war could have reasonable stakes and be a side thing - Wrath did this well, so did Cataclysm, Stormheim in Legion was a nice contained story and so on. Ditto, in small setups, the Monster of the Week stuff can work - I liked Zul and G'huun in this one, incidentally someone who actually accomplished things or the Arakkoa in WoD. But the larger baddies are even more limited than the faction war because they are predestined to fail and fail spectacularly after their opening round. The reality of the Big Bad expansion is that it's a whole lot of watching Alliance-coded characters go on Alliance-themed plots without internal conflict against a pushover of a Bad Guy, with the one exception in Cataclysm where it was Horde-coded instead, except for Rag. It lacks tension, it lacks investment for big parts of the playerbase and it's bound to fizzle out without impact. Say what you will about this carfire, but a fuck lot of people cared about it and that's because it actually materially affected them. The whole of Legion past the prepatch might as well not have happened and it would make no difference to BFA's story.

The faction conflict has consistently produced far more tangible impact on the world because it's permitted to have losses. More Horde characters died or left in BFA than were even present in Legion, ditto the Alliance has lost more to the Horde than to every other baddie combined. The whole bit about toxicity is nothing but a buzzword, so no point dwelling on that. If any messages in this mess is toxic then it's the one it actually pushed in its story instead of its marketing. That being the ideas that genocide should be waved off, that you should elevate abstractions over the wellbeing of those you're responsible for or that only people in power have agency and that everyone under them are lemmings who are either tricked or don't know what's good for them.

[Accendor]

See here's the problem: Alliance night elf, vengeance all the way. Horde pandaren? Peace, obviously, listen to the darn pandaren already.

Not my fault I was railroaded into helping blight their homeland in exchange for those sweet, sweet service medals.

Why would pandaren chose peace? Half of them burned children at Teldrassil and plaqued peoole Saddam Hussain style in Lordaron.

[Newname1234567890]

Why? Sure, she broke the oath to Garrosh but he is no more. When Sylvanas became Warchief a new Blood Oath was formed.

Because your character didn't side with the Iron Horde when Garry was still around. A new blood oath will be made with whoever is next

[Accendor]

We can have revenge as alliance since it appears sylvanas and her slaves are gonna end up being a threat someday

It was not Sylvanas who did Teldrassil, it was the Horde.

[SkunkPower]

Sylvanas. At least her Story is interesting.

[Nnyco]

Sylvanas over baine and anduin any day.

[Ezekyler]

Greymane/Tyrande for me. Hunt that bitch and her loyalists puppets, burn their body pillows and force them to watch.

[Dagoth Ur]

I honestly do not agree that the medium restrains us to Monster of the Week always losing with us winning. It is entirely possible for the villain of an arc to win for part of the arc (as long as we can reasonably inverse their gains by the end of the arc). Blizzard has not really gone that way which is poor, but it IS possible.
But the faction war can never be reasonably won.

I think Blizzard's just afraid we can't handle losing. With the faction war it'd be a little bit more touchy considering split playerbase and all, but I would prefer BfA ending with Horde capitulating to Alliance over this charade of unifaction we're getting.

Thing is though, I don't get why you need a win of some kind for resolution to faction conflict. Your idea about N'zoth surprising and wreaking both Horde and Alliance while we're still fighting each other would be a perfectly fine resolution to BfA's faction conflict imo too. Both retreating to their own continent to lick their wounds and think if war is even worth it doesn't sound so impossible to me.

[Accendor]

War should end asap.

Even Shandris blames Sylvan as, not the Horde for Teldrassil's BBQ.

Saurfang and Anduin both are right. The circle must be broken and it won't if people keep demanding revenge for each aggression from each side.

Lore aside, another escalation after the events of BFA it would be ridiculous at this point.

I'm an Alliance player btw.

The cycle could have been broken after the siege of Orgrimmer, when the Alliance had the chance to wipe the horde out. There is more than one way to break the cycle and extinction is the better and much safer solution.

[Evilfish]

I'm not joining the Alliance as some fucking joke. I'd rather stay with Sylvanas and be another kind of joke.

[tromage2]

Dont like Sylvanas but peace is a no no in my eyes.

I rather have a Deathknight Garrosh and jion his Horde then any of these options.

[Polybius]

Honestly, I think they handled Azshara about as well as they could have in an expansion that denied her the screen time she deserved. This is a character who is 90% style and they got that part down pat. Where she suffered was in the gameplay requirements imposed upon her - A) Her zone is just an island instead of a continent B) Her zone is a x.2 island which means it must have inexplicable rep factions running around and C) She is a Raid Boss so she must fail. But all that could easily be corrected with just some visual and narrative changes, like having you see a giant cityscape past the water wall like you could see in the Argus skyline with Mac'aree, or having Azshara have deliberately let the Ankoans and gilblins last so they could guide the players to her palace and do the thing. Everything else is standard WoW villain fare that's just how the medium works.

Mind, with Jaina they showed a willingness to not even have you actually defeat a raid boss and I think that would've been much better used on Azshara. She also has more genuine anti-villain/anti-hero potential, in her grudgingly working with the players because she doesn't want Sylvanas/Death/The Void Lords to destroy the world she means to rule. That'd be a fun detour and I think she's the kind of character who has enough fan backing to make it possible. Of course, hopefully ending with the night elves actually getting to face her in full.

@Nymrohd

Your argument is a fundamentally hypocritical one because you steelman the Monster of the Week stories while only accepting the worst examples of the faction conflict. Yes, the Monster of the Week stories could end with losses much like how the faction war could have reasonable stakes and be a side thing - Wrath did this well, so did Cataclysm, Stormheim in Legion was a nice contained story and so on. Ditto, in small setups, the Monster of the Week stuff can work - I liked Zul and G'huun in this one, incidentally someone who actually accomplished things or the Arakkoa in WoD. But the larger baddies are even more limited than the faction war because they are predestined to fail and fail spectacularly after their opening round. The reality of the Big Bad expansion is that it's a whole lot of watching Alliance-coded characters go on Alliance-themed plots without internal conflict against a pushover of a Bad Guy, with the one exception in Cataclysm where it was Horde-coded instead, except for Rag. It lacks tension, it lacks investment for big parts of the playerbase and it's bound to fizzle out without impact. Say what you will about this carfire, but a fuck lot of people cared about it and that's because it actually materially affected them. The whole of Legion past the prepatch might as well not have happened and it would make no difference to BFA's story.

The faction conflict has consistently produced far more tangible impact on the world because it's permitted to have losses. More Horde characters died or left in BFA than were even present in Legion, ditto the Alliance has lost more to the Horde than to every other baddie combined. The whole bit about toxicity is nothing but a buzzword, so no point dwelling on that. If any messages in this mess is toxic then it's the one it actually pushed in its story instead of its marketing. That being the ideas that genocide should be waved off, that you should elevate abstractions over the wellbeing of those you're responsible for or that only people in power have agency and that everyone under them are lemmings who are either tricked or don't know what's good for them.

I know you're writing about in-game losses, but so much potential has been lost in this game thanks to faction wars. Just look at how ugly contested areas look, or how some races are locked to a faction, forever pandering to them.

And no, toxicity is not a buzzword. Clearly some players felt offended about their factions, so much that IRL they intimidated each other or engaged in PvP in the first few Blizzcons.

[Reinhart11]

Honestly, I think they handled Azshara about as well as they could have in an expansion that denied her the screen time she deserved. This is a character who is 90% style and they got that part down pat. Where she suffered was in the gameplay requirements imposed upon her - A) Her zone is just an island instead of a continent B) Her zone is a x.2 island which means it must have inexplicable rep factions running around and C) She is a Raid Boss so she must fail. But all that could easily be corrected with just some visual and narrative changes, like having you see a giant cityscape past the water wall like you could see in the Argus skyline with Mac'aree, or having Azshara have deliberately let the Ankoans and gilblins last so they could guide the players to her palace and do the thing. Everything else is standard WoW villain fare that's just how the medium works.

Mind, with Jaina they showed a willingness to not even have you actually defeat a raid boss and I think that would've been much better used on Azshara. She also has more genuine anti-villain/anti-hero potential, in her grudgingly working with the players because she doesn't want Sylvanas/Death/The Void Lords to destroy the world she means to rule. That'd be a fun detour and I think she's the kind of character who has enough fan backing to make it possible. Of course, hopefully ending with the night elves actually getting to face her in full.

I agree. Actually, Azshara could still become the main villain in another expansion as long as she survives the Black Empire Expansion where N'zoth is defeated or imprisoned again or what ever. Naz'jatar is pretty bad, but at least the writing team kept this way open, consciously or unconciously. So we could still get a proper look at the Naga Empire and what the Naga under Azshara's rule were doing the last 10k years. Aside from bulling some poor Ankoans, Sea Giants and Gilblins. I mean, the ocean is so vast, there could be so much more.

Azshara would be a good Anti Hero for sure. One of the many big problems in Blizzards writing is that the main villains of an expansion always die, even if it is a complete waste and because of that, these villains have to be insanely stupid and incompetent all of a sudden. I definitely don't know any other fantasy world, where this happens. I mean, Arthas for example could have been pushed back into Ice Crown and a big magical ritual sealed him and the Scourge there, but he is still active sitting in Ice Crown Citadel, scheming,, his character evolving, influencing the world through his agents outside of Ice Crown and through the Cult of the Damned.

Same goes for Deathwing, who could easily have gotten his own realm somewhere, which is hard to conquer, where he could come up with other plans.

Of course this doesn't work, if Blizzard always has to represent these villains as world ending threats. If they weren't world ending threats, there would be way more story options and the villains could reappear in big events in Azeroths future. And MmoRPGs could work for this kind of story telling as a medium just fine. Some goes for their faction war narrative acutally. That a war between the factions and races always means annihilation for one side is such absurdely bad story telling. And completely unnecessary, in regards to story and gameplay as well. But they don't seem to realise that.

Azshara wanting to preserve Azeroth because she wants to rule it herself makes sense, she working with us etc. But the question is, do the writers want to tell such a story and how big is the risk, that Azshara gets turned into another Anduin zealot. The sad thing is, most races and characters in WoW have a lot of fun and awesome potential. But its mostly never used.

[Fetus Rex]

Because your character didn't side with the Iron Horde when Garry was still around. A new blood oath will be made with whoever is next

That's on Blizzard's writing. Sure, but now I can actually stay loyal. I love the fact I won't be a traitor once again.

[MatthiasVonTzeskagrad]

Let's see, what lore option does these sides give us?

Anduin Alliance: Void, death, maybe light being mean, friendship and love
Thrall Horde: Void, death, light being mean, friendship and love
Sylvanas: Void, death, light being mean, mysterious deals involving a possible return of Azshara to stage, and developing of several chars that way. Conflict for fair and square reasons, including chances of situations where both sides of a conflict are right.
Tyrande: Void, death, maybe light being mean, Elune mysterious stuff, possibility of vengeance tearing a society apart. Conflict for fair and square reasons, including chances of situations where both sides of a conflict are right. Maybe life being mean, or at least development of nature stuff?

Summarizing, never liked Tyrande nor Shandris nor Greymane, and Sylvanas character has been beaten down with a crowbar... but still better than Anduin, Thrall and the likes for the game.

[Dagoth Ur]

I know you're writing about in-game losses, but so much potential has been lost in this game thanks to faction wars. Just look at how ugly contested areas look, or how some races are locked to a faction, forever pandering to them.

I'd say almost equal amount of potential will be lost with unifaction. I see no reason why faction conflicts couldn't entail racial conflicts as sort of sub-dish, where each race has their own time to shine against whoever's their adversary on the opposite side.

As for the zones, that's subjective. I for instance put more value on zones being dynamic than perpetually frozen in a version of them which people find beautiful.