Alliance Insurrection NOW! DEATH to the HORDE!!

[rogueMatthias]

Most of the Horde were puppy-dog eager to do anything Sylvanas said, until she told them where to shove it in that cinematic, the only one seemingly hesitating to burn Teldrassil was Nathanos!

That Tyrande doesn’t just “get over” the Night elven capital being burned with a huge part of the population still on it, now that Sylvanas buggered off is the only sane thing anybody has done in BfA so far.

Sure, we’ll probably be killing Tyrande off soon enough (Going against Saint Anduin the holier-than-thou is a mortal sin!), the hints that the night warrior thing is corrupting her is noticeable, but i think she’s right this time.

Basically this entirely.

From a Horde point of view, sure they've had a whole Arc of Sylvanas being bad and the others coming to terms with their feelings about being a part of a genocide and massacre. That doesn't excuse them of their actions though and their participation.

Saurfang and the rest of the Horde were an active and eager part in the slaughter and massacre of innocents and children. Sylvanas flying away doesn't exonerate them of all responsibility and guilt. Anduin honouring them as heroes and patting them all on the back now, with no consequences for their actions, is insulting for the entire rest of the Alliance.

Rather than give poor ol' Saurfang a heroes send off (After Teldrassil having been his plan in the first place) the cinematic should have ended with the Alliance arresting his ass and being like "Great, Sylvanas is gone.. but you're still responsible for the deaths of thousands of Night Elve civilians so fuck you. Into jail you go! "

You think Blizzard didn't anticipate reactions like this? You think they didn't set up Tyrande and Genn as being the future warmongers that will start the next faction war? Blizzard knew that Alliance players would react this way, and are going to be giving you what you want. Be very careful what you wish for. It might just come true. Horde players wanted to take the fight to the Alliance, and we got Garrosh and Sylvanas out of it.

I think you're seriously over estimating Blizzards writing team. This is the same Blizzard that thought Tyrande and the NightElves had had their vengeance already, after scaring away Nathanos and not even being able to kill him. The same Blizzard that fridged the whole Night Elve race to help Horde character development. It's the same Blizzard that seems to think you can be an active part of a genocide but if you feel bad about it afterwards then that makes everything ok.

I am actually genuinely worried they're going to make Tyrande a future raid boss for not being rational and Blizzard will call her a warmongerer for not forgiving and thanking all the poor Hordies for the genocide of her people.

[VladlTutushkin]

first of all she didnt "decide" she was STOPED by thrall and kalec, a bit of a difference
"dozen"... yeah, all sources claim the casualties were "heavy" - same term as for alliance loses at battle for lorderon which was a massive battle in full fucking war, so probably couple thousands...
if "dozen" died at dalaran then teldrassil was a garden party with barbecue...

Most of Sunreavers got arrested and later released from Violet Hold after SoO, only those who refused to surrender died.

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Who the hell said anything about the story evolving. It has been evolving for 15 damned years now. And everything has to be a faction war because that's how it's been for a very long time. Before WoW even. And it does not have to be the same thing, it does not have to be different either because it has always been a constant state of affairs. What reason could you have to turn the whole Alliance vs Horde rivalry into a picnic where orcs and goat people skip across flowery fields? Spare me this hippie crap. Factions have to be hostile to each other because it's part of the game and the factions identities. If you don't get that, not my problem but it's a fact.

Speaking about facts, when exactly did your opinion become a fact? Why do they need to try a new formula when the old one works just fine and not only that but cancels a long tradition that is Red vs Blue. Where do you people pull this stuff from? And please, don't try to outsmart me with stupid crap like "war is war" since we are talking about a conflict between two specific factions. So why don't you give it rest, hum?

You want peace and love and whaver, go find yourself another game.

Also, why are you always so riled up? Its almost as if you are insecure or whatnot IRL and projecting like crazy by being “toughest guy in whole internet”. No trolling, just asking.

Infracted.

[Accendor]

I fully agree.
DEATH TO THE HORDE!

[Lolites]

Most of Sunreavers got arrested and later released from Violet Hold after SoO, only those who refused to surrender died.

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Also, why are you always so riled up? Its almost as if you are insecure or whatnot IRL and projecting like crazy by being “toughest guy in whole internet”. No trolling, just asking.

sure, a lot was just arrested, but "heavy casualties" clearly means a lot was killed, and if you did the q line or check on wowpedia its clear not only those who were defending themselves were attacked and killed... (for example vendors you were sent to kill just bcs they refused to side with silver covenant)

btw saying they were arrested like it was nothing, there was no reason for that, it was just an abuse of power by jaina, as most of sunreavers were innocent...

[Evilfish]

Also, why are you always so riled up? Its almost as if you are insecure or whatnot IRL and projecting like crazy by being “toughest guy in whole internet”. No trolling, just asking.

I don't know why some of you guys have a thing about this armchair psychology analysis on these forums. It's getting really boring to see you fellas constantly trying to profile posters with your BS.

[Nattwenny]

With that train of thought, how many alliance will die fighting the horde forever? There has to be a line drawn. Not all Horde are evil. Even undead.

[nonameelf]

OP should go join Tyrande as raid fodder, lol.

Seriously though, the peaceful Anduin went to war against Sylvanas. Then he remained calm and rational enough to see that the whole Horde really wasn't sure about Sylvanas, and now the Horde has really driven that point home. Tyrande and her plight of vengeance is a joke, Night elves will be better off once she's finally out the picture.

"I was just following orders" is not a valid excuse. The Horde should be held accountable for their crimes. Anduin is a traitor.

[Sughs]

Even if factions combine next expansion, I am sure the lore will be something like:

"Most races on both factions made peace but there's still a few individuals who couldn't overcome their previous conflicts and kill Alliance/Horde on sight."

We need that, if not for anything else, to keep PvP a thing, so...

[VladlTutushkin]

I don't know why some of you guys have a thing about this armchair psychology analysis on these forums. It's getting really boring to see you fellas constantly trying to profile posters with your BS.

Not so hard to start guessing based on constant streams of “urgh, me angry! Me SMASH!” From you. Some people say that i have no chill , wander what would they say about you? Also - if you want that sweet, sweet faction conflict you better pray that Tyrande survives because she is your last chance.

[nonameelf]

With that train of thought, how many alliance will die fighting the horde forever? There has to be a line drawn. Not all Horde are evil. Even undead.

And the alternative is to what? Wait 2 years until the Horde goes full genocidal again and wipes out another city?

The only solution is to dismantle the Horde as an organization.

[VladlTutushkin]

With that train of thought, how many alliance will die fighting the horde forever? There has to be a line drawn. Not all Horde are evil. Even undead.

And how many will die if we stop and turn our back again only to be stabbed?

[KaPe]

sure, a lot was just arrested, but "heavy casualties" clearly means a lot was killed, and if you did the q line or check on wowpedia its clear not only those who were defending themselves were attacked and killed... (for example vendors you were sent to kill just bcs they refused to side with silver covenant)

btw saying they were arrested like it was nothing, there was no reason for that, it was just an abuse of power by jaina, as most of sunreavers were innocent...

Casualty != fatality. The next time Jaina and Lor'themar meet on Isle of Thunder, he's angry about prisoners in Violet Hold, not the dead. You'd think that if a major portion of population got outright killed, his priorities would be somewhat different.

[Terongor]

If Blizzard could actually write Lawful Good, no problem. They always write Lawful Stupid, largely because I suspect they in no way understand or believe in the principles involved, much like how their "honor" means whatever the hell doesn't make Saurfang sad at that moment.

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Because Illidan isn't an egomaniac and is completely trustworthy.

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Yeah, I would have understood them using Garithos, Taurajo, or any of the very few complaints Horde actually has here. Instead they pick two that had jack shit to do with the Alliance. They mangled the Horde too, conflating them officially with the Blackhand Horde.

Well he has always being an egomaniac but he always has being truthful when he judges people and doesn't let his personals feelings get in the way as he is very pragmatic at the same time and his knowledge and skill with arcade would give him a way to see that.

[Evilfish]

Not so hard to start guessing based on constant streams of “urgh, me angry! Me SMASH!” From you. Some people say that i have no chill , wander what would they say about you? Also - if you want that sweet, sweet faction conflict you better pray that Tyrande survives because she is your last chance.

So what? You being a "real" tough person decided to give a chill pill or something? Well allow me to do some profiling then, cause you sure sound like the type who takes things out of context to berate others cause I never said me smash or whatever.
And I do want my sweet faction conflict, what I don't want is more stupid writing about how the Horde gets upset cause one of their own is real good at killing the Alliance.

[VladlTutushkin]

So what? You being a "real" tough person decided to give a chill pill or something? Well allow me to do some profiling then, cause you sure sound like the type who takes things out of context to berate others cause I never said me smash or whatever.
And I do want my sweet faction conflict, what I don't want is more stupid writing about how the Horde gets upset cause one of their own is real good at killing the Alliance.

To put thing in comparison - Alliance told to feel bad (and maybe even turned into “neutral evil bosses”) for CONSIDERING harming Horde. Let alone for actually doing this. Like Tyrande now - her people suffered a genocide, her husband almost died, her home is ruined and yet she is framed as unreasonable and “consumed by vengeance” here.

[Nattwenny]

And how many will die if we stop and turn our back again only to be stabbed?

Have faith. Idk.

[Mehrunes]

jiana is part of the ruling body and no body double guesses her till legion.

You're simply repeating yourself at this point without actually addressing anything I said. That there were no Council members other than Jaina during the Purge is simply a fact. As such Jaina acted alone. In direct violation of how Dalaran is ruled. Lack of reaction of the rest of the Council later on (after Jaina put them in a situation with no exit as the Horde would come for them even with Jaina's head on a spike above Dalaran's gate) doesn't magically alter the past.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Purge_of_Dalaran
if you got a more canon source to use freel free to link it. tides of war is also before the purge so its not relevant and questlines are dubious canon wise most of the time.

Jaina would be Kirin Tor last time I checked. And questlines are dubious in regards to things like scale. Not the events themselves or their general participants. And as I outright said, Tides of War was a source for my first paragraph of my first reply. That paragraph wasn't about the Purge itself for the most part, but about how Dalaran's power system works. And given how Tides of War is a source on exactly that, it most certainly is relevant.

we have no canon info that i know of in regards to what jiana did after the sunreavers were caught, i think in warcrimes it says she questioned them. as to warcrimes being out after what she could have learned after the purge would be taken into account there but not during the purge.

War Crimes mentiones Sunreavers six times. None of those times was in context of anyone being questioned. Even if Jaina questioned anyone after she captured that would constitute a post-factum change of plans for her, because - again - by her own admission she started the Purge to forcibly remove Sunreavers out of the city after Aethas refused to make them leave peacefully. Kinda what a purge means to begin with. Not to question anyone and find the guilty. And the statements about the numbers of Sunreaver traitors that I addressed in the first post of yours I quoted in this thread were written in a general manner, not in the context of what Jaina knew at the time. Not that it would have changed anything, because as I already noted, Jaina knew nothing certain. She had no actual proof that Sunreavers were involved in the first place. All she had was Fanlyr's portal that for all she knew was created by Modera. All Jaina had was a hypothesis.

for the horde there are many people who hand wave the old horde because of something metzen said once. as far as arthas goes i haven't read rise of the lichking but hes a traitor either way when he starts killing his own men and the alliance trying to own is blame is just stuuuuupid.

Can't say I recall such a comment by Metzen. The only thing about old organization vs new one from him I recall was him stating the Alliance of Lordaeron is the same thing as the current Alliance. And like I said earlier in the thread, Alliance didn't know about Arthas killing his men in Northrend and as such very much considered him to still be a member when he returned. Hell, they greeted him as a hero.

Pig slip maybe for you, see I actually LIKE the story so whatever. I'm not the one running around crying how "shit the story is" because it doesn't please me. I play to have fun, not get butt her over "the story". If it is THAT big a deal for you, get out and go to classic and leave retail for people who actually can enjoy it and not whine when something doesn't go my desired way.

How about you don't play a gatekeeper of who can play retail just because they criticize a rushed mess of a story. Also, what's with the fallacious go-to "retort" of Blizzard's defenders about how people are simply complaining because the story didn't go their "desired way"? What's this "desired way" of @Verdugo, exactly? Because from their posts prior to 8.2.5 I don't recall them having any specific expectations or desires for it. So what if, stay with me here as I explore apparently a fantastical concept to some, they criticize it because they simply find the quality of the writing to be bad regardless of what they wanted to see? I know, what a silly concept, amirite? /s

and what is it with you people and not letting a story evolve? Why does every thing have to be a boner for faction war? I'm sorry I actually ENJOY evolving story and not unchanging, uninteresting, night and day war between a faction. You can only spin it so often before its the same thing just a slight different way. Yes factions has always been around but guess what? So is evolution, learning, and understanding how general story writing works. You have a beginning, a middle and an END. ALL stories. Period.

Sure the alliance can reignite it, but it won't change the fact they need to try a new formula that isn't "Red vs Blue from now until the end of Warcraft history". Also, to correct you right here, since you don't seem to have a basic understanding of war in the slightest. It's "a state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different groups within a nation or state." not "a state of armed conflict solely between the horde and alliance." World of WARCRAFT. Can literally be the war of anything, not just the World of War(between two factions)craft.

Just as recently as the first cinematic of 8.2.5 you had significant figures of each faction mention the shit their own factions did to hurt the other one and the world in general. In the second cinematic you had majority of the Horde stand back behind Sylvanas' war against the Alliance. So if faction war is the beginning and the unification is the end, what's the middle here, pray tell? Oh, right, there isn't one. The factions just forgot their grievances against each other on the spot as if they were all mind controlled by Sylvanas to wage war against one another. Dat progression. Dat evolution. Totally how story writing is supposed to work

[VladlTutushkin]

Have faith. Idk.

Third time already. THIRD TIME.

[Mehrunes]

It's not like he's wrong. The fuck does Arthas have to do with the Alliance? Might as well blame it on Ner'zhul or Kil'jaeden, since they were the ones who started the whole Lich King business.

I intensely dislike that Anduin's little speech, and preferred it wouldn't exist at all, but even so, Garrithos would be a far better comparison. While rather disliked by non-humans, he was a high ranking commander that died while doing his duty, without getting his brain scrambled by a soul eating sword. Or just mention the Purge of Dalaran. Do not point at a man who slaughtered anyone that stood in his way, without caring about any factional divide. Even mentioning Camp freaking Taurajo would make more sense than this.

Did I miss something and Arthas has been kicked out of or at least disavowed by the Alliance before he started cleansing Lordaeron? Because last time I checked he was hailed as a returning hero just seconds before he stabbed his father in the heart. Was it the best example? Of course not. But if Anduin wants to take blame for Arthas, he can very well make an argument in that favor.

Yeah, I would have understood them using Garithos, Taurajo, or any of the very few complaints Horde actually has here. Instead they pick two that had jack shit to do with the Alliance. They mangled the Horde too, conflating them officially with the Blackhand Horde.

I can agree that Arthas is a stretch, but saying that Daelin had jack shit to do with the Alliance is just false. Kul Tiras left the Alliance only after his death, because the rest of the Alliance was unwilling to help them avenge it.

[Evilfish]

To put thing in comparison - Alliance told to feel bad (and maybe even turned into “neutral evil bosses”) for CONSIDERING harming Horde. Let alone for actually doing this. Like Tyrande now - her people suffered a genocide, her husband almost died, her home is ruined and yet she is framed as unreasonable and “consumed by vengeance” here.

And that there is stupid writing cause it sure as hell isn't an issue just on the Alliance side. Like I said, I'm all for hostilities between factions (that does not necessarily mean open war) and that's not gonna happen with characters like Anduin and Baine, especially not if the rest of the characters in leadership roles are drinking their kool aid.

I don't know about that nelf vengeance stuff, had to filter anything through all the nelf crying. But I can't hold it against Tyrande for attacking the Horde, not one bit. And these word games they keep playing are not worth shit to anyone who has been paying attention to the BFA story, much less those who have been following the story from as far as the first warcraft game.