So how exactly Nathanos escaped Orgrimmar?

[chrisisvacant]

She didn't really "risk" it in my estimation, she was goaded into revealing her true allegiance (or in this case lack of allegiance) to all within earshot - it's not something she meant to do, as conveyed by her various facial contortions before she basically shrugs and just goes "to hell with it." Sylvanas has a tendency to lose her composure when goaded but she recovers fast, and her pathology includes both an inability to admit to error and an inability to show any kind of weakness (except perhaps to Nathanos).

Sylvanas and Nathanos are strategists and tacticians. It would not really be that surprising if they had contingency plans. "If we have to bail, here's what to do." and "Nathanos, position yourself at an advantageous location once you and the champion finish preparations." are both pretty obvious moves.

Sylvanas doesn't ever spend much time talking about her failures because, well, she always seems to have a backup plan at the ready. I think that was most obvious at Lordaeron where she literally lures them into the throne room to kill them.

[Alanar]

Rommath was a close companion of Kael'thas Sunstrider, to whom Rommath was fiercely devoted. After the Scourge invasion of Quel'Thalas and the prince's exodus to Outland, Rommath was sent back home to Quel'Thalas to retake the land; Rommath was responsible for reclaiming much of it from the Scourge, the capital of Silvermoon included. As the prince's voice in Quel'Thalas, Rommath spread Illidan Stormrage's teachings—the siphoning of arcane magic—to help sate the elves' addiction to magic that had become apparent in the wake of the Sunwell's destruction.[4]

Rommath was shattered by the prince's betrayal and eventual death, though remained loyal to Silvermoon throughout the ordeal. Rommath's true loyalty is to his people,[5] and he does not wish to see Regent Lord Theron follow in Kael's footsteps.[3]

Right from the top paragraph of his wowpedia page.

Very nice to copy paste it, bit that wasnt hes question lol.

And no they never had a love relationship what bs is this?

[Aucald]

Sylvanas and Nathanos are strategists and tacticians. It would not really be that surprising if they had contingency plans. "If we have to bail, here's what to do." and "Nathanos, position yourself at an advantageous location once you and the champion finish preparations." are both pretty obvious moves.

Sylvanas doesn't ever spend much time talking about her failures because, well, she always seems to have a backup plan at the ready. I think that was most obvious at Lordaeron where she literally lures them into the throne room to kill them.

Which also fails. I'm not saying Sylvanas isn't a masterful strategist - she is, at least to a degree, but she's also displayed a marked tendency (especially of late) to throw caution to winds and indulge in villainous monologue at inopportune times. Likely because in addition to being clever, Sylvanas also has two other marked traits: arrogance and vanity. The arrogant usually don't spend much time talking or even thinking of their failures, and that is typically why they have a tendency to repeat them as Sylvanas has. They fail to learn from their mistakes, and that failure can be exploited - which is exactly what Saurfang did by goading her into revealing herself at Orgrimmar.

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I think the most fitting end will be for someone, be it Alleria, Anduin or Calia (or even someone from the Horde) to thwart her final plan as well and then for her to have a complete meltdown.

If we're talking about a poetic end to Sylvanas' scheming, culminating in a complete breakdown, I personally think it should come at the hands of her sisters: Alleria and Vereesa. They both seem like her last touchstones on her effective humanity, the last true links to what she was like as a living person. Nathanos seems too far gone under her influence to serve in this capacity, though I can see a number of ways in which he might inadvertently contribute (such as sacrificing himself to save her). But ultimately if she's to be thwarted I think Alleria and Vereesa should play a key role in that, and should be a part of the experience of her particular downfall.

[chrisisvacant]

Which also fails. I'm not saying Sylvanas isn't a masterful strategist - she is, at least to a degree, but she's also displayed a marked tendency (especially of late) to throw caution to winds and indulge in villainous monologue at inopportune times. Likely because in addition to being clever, Sylvanas also has two other marked traits: arrogance and vanity. The arrogant usually don't spend much time talking or even thinking of their failures, and that is typically why they have a tendency to repeat them as Sylvanas has. They fail to learn from their mistakes, and that failure can be exploited - which is exactly what Saurfang did by goading her into revealing herself at Orgrimmar.

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I guess I don't see why these recent events are viewed as failures on the part of Sylvanas - especially when we have a view to her endgame.

It seems to me that Sylvanas makes the pointed choice to play her cards extremely close to her vest. She has a clear idea of what greater accomplishments must come to pass and does not see death (or dying) as an endpoint. If anything, it is a doorway directly through the clamor. So certainly Teldrassil was not a failure. Certainly Lordaeron is not a failure. Both events drew massive casualties and caused fractures in tenuously-bound allegiances. And both pushed the grand narrative further. The more agitated the forces get, the more willing to use their WMDs, the more souls robbed from the void. If anything, Sylvanas sees life as the most truly vulnerable state where you are not protected by forces that can ensure you are unsullied by the worst primordial force known to the cosmos.

She is certainly arrogant. One could interpret her actions as a bit of a god-complex in the sense that she feels she is above this terrestrial bullshit. She also must feel like the people who stood before her, united in an effort to disrupt her rule, were so obsessed with the politics of the day that they ignored the fact they were being undermined by the old gods the entire time (and repeatedly).

Now, the most confusing thing to me is why she would play 4D chest with the force who absolutely seeks her destruction the most.

[Nnyco]

Same as the player? Hearthstoned away. Not to mention there was like six minutes of cinematic where he could slip away.

Played through it yesterday (the end of the warcampaign, right?)....maybe wasn't paying attention, but IIRC whatever cinematic there were (several indeed, starting at the docks in Zulzadar, then outside Orgrimmar) - I could have sworn I always talked to Lor'Themar?

Come to think of it, I completely overlooked Nathos ..was he really there?

When you are sided with sylvanas you got a whole different quest inside og.

[Aucald]

I guess I don't see why these recent events are viewed as failures on the part of Sylvanas - especially when we have a view to her endgame.

It seems to me that Sylvanas makes the pointed choice to play her cards extremely close to her vest. She has a clear idea of what greater accomplishments must come to pass and does not see death (or dying) as an endpoint. If anything, it is a doorway directly through the clamor. So certainly Teldrassil was not a failure. Certainly Lordaeron is not a failure. Both events drew massive casualties and caused fractures in tenuously-bound allegiances. And both pushed the grand narrative further. The more agitated the forces get, the more willing to use their WMDs, the more souls robbed from the void. If anything, Sylvanas sees life as the most truly vulnerable state where you are not protected by forces that can ensure you are unsullied by the worst primordial force known to the cosmos.

She is certainly arrogant. One could interpret her actions as a bit of a god-complex in the sense that she feels she is above this terrestrial bullshit. She also must feel like the people who stood before her, united in an effort to disrupt her rule, were so obsessed with the politics of the day that they ignored the fact they were being undermined by the old gods the entire time (and repeatedly).

Now, the most confusing thing to me is why she would play 4D chest with the force who absolutely seeks her destruction the most.

Her actions at Darkshore (the burning of Teldrassil) were ostensibly about inflicting a psychological wound that would sap the Alliance of its will to fight the Horde, this failed to manifest and the Alliance was more incensed as ever. Her actions at Lordaeron were to trap and kill Anduin and the other leaders of the Alliance, leaving their soldiers rudderless and without direction, this failed and Anduin escaped her trap (while she and the Forsaken lost their capitol city). Then she attempted to kill Saurfang in Mak'gora and establish herself once more as the Warchief of the Horde - this failed, and she was instead goaded into outing herself as an uncaring tyrant who was merely using the Horde to her own ends.

The idea of "failure" here isn't really a failure in Sylvanas' scheming (whatever it might have truly been), but a failure in the optics of her rule and her messaging to the Horde - apparent "failures" that undermine the Horde's oaths to her as their leader-figure. The War of Thorns was about sapping the Alliance of the will to fight, but it made the fighting worse than ever. The Battle of Lordaeron was about luring the Alliance into a trap and killing their leaders, but that didn't happen. Then Sylvanas outs herself as not caring about the Horde in the slightest and her regime is fully undermined, she loses the support of the force which was ostensibly there to aid her in true goal of feeding Death. And even if she can rely on the now-freed N'Zoth to continue the cycle of feeding Death through war, it still won't be the same level of output if the Horde and Alliance were still at war with one another in addition to N'Zoth picking them off in their weakened states.

As to why she'd play "4D chess" with the Void and its children, I would assume it's because she has the arrogance and vanity to think she'll win when all is said and done.

[Eggroll]

I believe Nathanos will be brutally killed by Tyrande.

Here, have some cheers

[Maljinwo]

He probably wandered off as soon as the *tink tink* started to regroup at the Ghostlands

Bonus points if he started making whoosh sounds as if he was able to become purple smoke to fly.


I do hope they update Zandalar and remove him from there as well.
And maybe give us an insight on Talanji's stance on this whole thing

[Eggroll]

Just know alliance players that you may be losing Stormwind just as we lost Undercity.

Lol? You lost Undercity like we lost Teldrassil. May I kindly remind you that both were blown up by Sylvanas, not the Alliance?

[cparle87]

??? One guy said Rommath/Kaelthas situation was similar to Sylvanas/Nathanos and I pointed out it's not, because Sylvanas and Nathanos are lovers, so their connection is deeper than just loyalty.

Hopefully this time I've put it straightforward enough for you to understand.

YOU'RE the only one talking about them being lovers. I was just talking about both of them being their leader's most ardent supporter, mouthpiece of their orders, and so forth. Rommath was shattered by Kael'thas' betrayal but maintained his loyalty to his people, and I was pondering it would be interesting character development if they took Nathanos the same way, but alas.

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Very nice to copy paste it, bit that wasnt hes question lol.

And no they never had a love relationship what bs is this?

Ok, this is really weird. Why is it I bring up that Nathanos and Rommath are the same in that they are their leader's most ardent supporter, enforcer of their will, mouthpiece of their practices. And everyone immediately jumps on the "lol they weren't lovers they're nothing alike" bandwagon?

Folks need to get their heads out of the gutter.

[Sangris]

Nathanos can be everywhere at the same time, didn't BfA teach you that?

Given Blizzard's moronic notion that they have to make gameplay mechanics canon because reasons, they will probably handwave it and unironically claim he hearthed out.


On a more serious note: The NPC you turn the quest in to after the cinematic as a loyalist says that Sylvanas planned for several outcomes, including this one. So she probably made preparations for Nathanos to quickly escape should circumstances require it.

[Unholyground]

Lol? You lost Undercity like we lost Teldrassil. May I kindly remind you that both were blown up by Sylvanas, not the Alliance?

Ya, and you are going to have a damaged Stormwind again for another 2-3 expansions, no one liked Darnassus anyways, plus with all the decaying burnt matter the tree will grow back even stronger with that much nutrients .

[Irian]

The moment the tinks began, he likely went off to follow Sylvanas. It's not like the Forsaken would have immediately done a total 180 and stopped him. They were likely still conflicted on the whole series of events that just transpired and Nathanos silently slid out the side gate or hopped on a zeppelin.

It's not exactly a challenge. The Sylvanas loyalists who didn't fight seemed to just be welcomed back into the Horde. I assume the ones that were imprisoned are just the ones who tried to fight back.

[Amaterasu65]

The Alliance leaders claim to be seeking Sylvanas and Nathanos in the entire EK. I think both are fugitive. Don't expect Nathanos to return.

[chrisisvacant]

Her actions at Darkshore (the burning of Teldrassil) were ostensibly about inflicting a psychological wound that would sap the Alliance of its will to fight the Horde, this failed to manifest and the Alliance was more incensed as ever. Her actions at Lordaeron were to trap and kill Anduin and the other leaders of the Alliance, leaving their soldiers rudderless and without direction, this failed and Anduin escaped her trap (while she and the Forsaken lost their capitol city). Then she attempted to kill Saurfang in Mak'gora and establish herself once more as the Warchief of the Horde - this failed, and she was instead goaded into outing herself as an uncaring tyrant who was merely using the Horde to her own ends.

Ostensibly being the keyword here, we never actually get any third person omniscient view of what Sylvanas' point actually is. Not only does she play it close to the vest, so too do the writers. I don't buy that she was trying to demoralize them - that wouldn't make much sense. Given she has witnessed the Alliance endure through tons of hardships, I think she fully understood that burning Teldrassil was an inciting act. If we're taking hope to mean an individual's personal hope to succeed, then she'd be harming the Horde's with Teldrassil as the Night Elves would never take that lying down.

If we're to interpret hope in a more universal sense, as in "these people are hopeless", then you could perhaps claim she failed in her endeavor to damn the two sides to fighting in an indefinite war because, ultimately, they relieved tensions.

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Nathanos can be everywhere at the same time, didn't BfA teach you that?

Given Blizzard's moronic notion that they have to make gameplay mechanics canon because reasons, they will probably handwave it and unironically claim he hearthed out.

What are you even talking about?

[erifwodahs]

I've watched the cinematics a few number of times. Done the loyalist arc as well.

Besides overall mess atm and no real conclusion to the whole story one thing really bothers me: How the hell Nathanos managed to get out of Orgrimmar?

I mean, he is standing on the walls of Orgrimmar just before the cinematic plays. Then suddenly he is at Windrunner Spire with Sylvanas. Did he get the hearthstone as well or? It would be improbable that he actually managed to just flee Orgrimmar like Sylvanas did in a cloud of smoke, especially with all gates surrounded and having Orgrimmar full of mad former loyalists after Sylvanas' outbreak.

HOW THE HELL DID HE GET OUT??

It's MMO thingy, Nathanos is there for other quests. Like you get Nazgrim to give you quests still too, but he is dead. In actual time we don't know where he went after Nazjatar, unless I missed it?

[Sangris]

What are you even talking about?

I'm talking about stuff like making Spirit Healers and Hearthstones canon instead of just leaving them as game mechanics for no apparent reason whatsoever.

[Tarba]

I've watched the cinematics a few number of times. Done the loyalist arc as well.

Besides overall mess atm and no real conclusion to the whole story one thing really bothers me: How the hell Nathanos managed to get out of Orgrimmar?

I mean, he is standing on the walls of Orgrimmar just before the cinematic plays. Then suddenly he is at Windrunner Spire with Sylvanas. Did he get the hearthstone as well or? It would be improbable that he actually managed to just flee Orgrimmar like Sylvanas did in a cloud of smoke, especially with all gates surrounded and having Orgrimmar full of mad former loyalists after Sylvanas' outbreak.

HOW THE HELL DID HE GET OUT??

There are still many people loyal to sylvanas. Like the one who give you the hearthstone. Also on top of that wall. So I don't think a guy like him has any problem to get en escape plan.

[Aucald]

Ostensibly being the keyword here, we never actually get any third person omniscient view of what Sylvanas' point actually is. Not only does she play it close to the vest, so too do the writers. I don't buy that she was trying to demoralize them - that wouldn't make much sense. Given she has witnessed the Alliance endure through tons of hardships, I think she fully understood that burning Teldrassil was an inciting act. If we're taking hope to mean an individual's personal hope to succeed, then she'd be harming the Horde's with Teldrassil as the Night Elves would never take that lying down.

I use "ostensibly" here because, according to a "A Good War," demoralizing the Alliance and breaking their hope was exactly what the War of Thorns was meant to accomplish. And it doesn't make much sense, it never really did, but based on her words and actions of late we can see that it was just doubletalk on her part - it was just a show to sell the war to Saurfang and the rest of the Horde. With that interpretation I would say you're correct in claiming she meant Teldrassil to be an inciting act, but she didn't want the Horde to know she was just warmongering for its own sake (to enrich herself personally by feeding the Horde dead to the force of Death). "Hope," for Sylvanas, seems to represent a hope if peace and in life itself, as it seems. Sylvanas has entirely turned against life and the living, viewing Death as the greater force and wholly embracing her own state of undeath (in deep contrast to her older characterization lamenting undeath as a curse she had been afflicted with).

If we're to interpret hope in a more universal sense, as in "these people are hopeless", then you could perhaps claim she failed in her endeavor to damn the two sides to fighting in an indefinite war because, ultimately, they relieved tensions.

That is indeed another perspective in which one could claim she's failed. The motto has been "you can't destroy/kill hope," and Sylvanas' answer (to Delaryn in "A Good War") was "Can't I?" She failed to destroy hope at Teldrassil, and again at Orgrimmar as Saurfang claimed. Life turned against her - the Horde rallied against her, and she in turn fled the battle before it even began (knowing that her own cause was, for the time being, a hopeless one).

[bullseyed]

I don't think he's actually there, canonically speaking? The version of him on the ramparts is the static instance of him that's always there, just like his continued presence on the Banshee's Wail in Zandalar - he's present in case players need that NPC instance for some reason and to prevent issues with phasing. That is unless I missed a trick somewhere and he was actually involved in the denouement of the War Campaign.

Canonically he was returning from Nazjatar. He wouldn't have even been at Org when this all happened.