Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Rivex]

That is what I do here and there is nothing wrong with it.

Well there is... you can't flame and call people out on the very thing you do yourself.. Bit hypocritical but then again so are your other hundred or so posts.

Doesn't matter your clearly set in your ways and this isn't going anywhere.

I bid you a fond good day sir.

[Obelisk Kai]

Saying that the official Blizzard statements agree with you is not really a good argumentative stance to take since those very statements have been put into question, in this thread.

You can call it "word of god" as much as you want, but Blizzard is not a god, or even as infallible as one. They make mistakes. They are not 100% correct in everything. "It's their story, so their word regarding the story is always the correct stance." Well, didn't Red Shirt Guy show that is not the case?

Blizzard's opinions and statements are not above reproach or criticism. Saying that their opinions agree with yours, by itself, does not make you any more or less correct than anyone else's.

The resort to the Appeal to Authority fallacy as a way of countering Blizzard's words will not work. The Appeal to Authority fallacy exists because appealing to the words of a presumed authority on a topic to prove something ignores that the individual being cited is fallible.

The reason it fails in this case is that the authority in question is pronouncing on their own creative work, the fictional world of warcraft. An authority can be wrong in real life, but a creator cannot be wrong about their work of fiction.

The Red shirt guy example never has been the parallel you think it is. The question posed by the Red Shirt guy was incredibly niche and related to the purely lore issue of two relatively obscure Dwarven characters. Does this mean a creator was wrong about their work of fiction? No, because it wasn't being wrong, it was an oversight and when it was pointed out to them it was corrected. Being wrong would have meant doubling down on their NPC placement and ignoring the lore that said it was incorrect.

The parallel fails because their stance on Blood Elves is not an error. It is actually a sound interpretation of the facts on a matter that is not purely lore, but heavily involves gameplay factors as well. And, in contrast to red shirt's guy triumphant moment when he did make Blizzard realise they had overlooked something, when the pro High Elf case was put to the developers you got a robust defense of the faction divide and a statements of Blizzard's interpretation of the facts, which has been our last word on the matter.

Blizzard's opinions and statements are indeed not above reproach or criticism, it is your right to make those critiques and argue for a change. But what you cannot do is insist that your opinion has equal value, or even superior value, to their own. Stating Blizzard is wrong will get you nowhere. Stating 'this is why Blizzard should change their minds' might lead to progress, but it also implies an acceptance of the facts they have put forth on this topic.

[Aldo Hawk]

Well there is... you can't flame and call people out on the very thing you do yourself.. Bit hypocritical but then again so are your other hundred or so posts.

Doesn't matter your clearly set in your ways and this isn't going anywhere.

I bid you a fond good day sir.

Things clear, you were the one coming here to bother others.

Then you got called out as you deserved.

I am not here to be polite and kind, and you don't even deserve it.

Learn your place.

[Obelisk Kai]

Lol, "one last hurrah", you must not realize this request has apparently been going on since the beta of WoW, before I was even privy of the Warcraft franchise. On the official forums, people are STILL talking about High Elves/debating about High Elves with a furor unseen by any other race request to this day. It will most likely continue even if you or me or the others here stop participating in said discussion. Because someone will always be requesting it until it may happen or the game ceases development.

That's not changing just because they don't get announced at Blizzcon, as many already expect no High Elf announcement for the entirety of BfA.

Maybe it will be "done for a while" but that's honestly what I expected it to be months ago, yet taking a gander on forums shows this not to be the case. What I am sad about is for San'layn peeps, it appears their content leader has lost hope since the recent War Campaign ousted Sylvanas as a selfish villain.

But yes, please. Consider it done. I'm sure there are many that won't mind if certain posters thought "it's over" and didn't participate anymore.

I think you misread what I wrote. I didn't say the topic would stop, it hasn't stopped in years and won't stop for the forseeable future. I said this is the last month of the topic having any relevance. Blizzcon will bring the curtains down on Battle for Azeroth and begin the next phase of WoW. After this, as confirmed by Blizzard, Allied races are going to get considerably rarer. A pair of races per expansion, or every other expansion would not be a surprising cadence.

As Allied races become rare, the chances that Blizzard will waste a rare opportunity for adding a new race to the game on something that is a duplicate of a core Horde race, and only a mild variant of an existing Alliance Allied race, are so small as to be non-existant. As they said, if you want to play that type of High Elf, the Horde is waiting for you. This position is common sense.

You cite the intense desire on the forums as if it was meaningful, I have often seen people cite High Elves as the most requested race ever, but they are also the most protested race ever. As the leaked CM post from the High Elf discord said 'While 'Every Voice matters' is one of our core values, and we value people voicing their opinions, that doesn't mean we have to agree with them. It is quite impossible to please everyone'. It also presumes that the debate, which even you acknowledge goes back to the days of classic, has had no success and has only recently begun to illicit responses. That is not true. Whilst the hard core of the pro High Elf community has rejected them, Void Elves are clearly the direct result of years of agitation for Alliance High Elves. It is incorrect therefore to presume that Blizzard is responding in a vacuum on this subject. It seems Blizzard's attitude is that they actually fulfilled the request whilst respecting their own red lines regarding faction diversity at the same time.

Blizzcon 2019 feels to be the last opportunity for them to reverse course and grant a High Elf Allied race, perhaps as part of the hypothetical 'final pair' of Allied races, the ones Ion asked for feedback on in a recent Q and A (Mecha Gnomes and Vulpera are probably a set pair, the hypothetical final pair would be the sixth and last pair)

Sure if that's what you consider done then so be it. I don't feel anyone would lament over that. Also if either of the two above cases happen, I am pretty sure most people would at least feel "now this is at least a compromise now".

"Don't give up hope" was said strictly to High Elf fans. I don't doubt the fervor over them that still continues to this day isn't something Blizzard is thinking about for post-BfA future.

Void Elves themselves are the compromise of course, but a Void Elf with 'normal' skin tones would still be a Void Elf, with Void Elf racials and the inability to be a Paladin. This is why I doubt Void Elves will receive such a customization, as it undermines their aesthetic distinctiveness and will still not be enough to satisfy the hardcore, but it clearly is possible.

The end of the War campaign has made me far more sceptical that the boundaries between the Alliance and Horde will be weakened. It seems the aim was never to remove or weaken the factions as a result of the war, it was to return the two to a position where they can nominally co-exist and co-operate in the face of future threat. This is in line with Ion Hazzikostas' recent interview with Forbes in April where he ruled out a PVE version of mercenary mode and where he extols the virtues of the faction system as being an integral part of the game. It is also in line with the existence of Void Elves and Nightborne in the first place, as why create Void Elves as a compromise for the Alliance (and then give Nightborne to the Horde as a quid pro quo) if the factions were to be significantly weakened in 9.0? Had that been the plan, and they would have known years ago it was the plan, they would have given Nightborne to the Alliance, Undead Elves to the Horde and surprised High Elf fans with the ability play a fair skinned, blue eyed, majestic elf in the Alliance in 9.0 with the weakening of the factions.

You say this very matter-of-factly but have you spent time on the US forum threads? I don't expect you too since you're EU, but the bold has in fact been said, or I should say it was something like "the Silver Covenant doesn't exist anymore because they're not in BfA, so they must've all died". Which at this point, SC is synonymous with High Elves anyway.

But the point is that kind of "logic" has been posted on US forums. It is not me exaggerating.

I don't spend time on the US forums. Or the EU forums in fact. I am content to say my piece on this topic here. If someone said that they are wrong. Of course I would quibble and say they should be strictly saying High Elf exiles, as Blood Elves ARE High Elves, High Elf exiles are High Elves and Void Elves are a flavour of High Elf, but I would presume that individual referred to the High Elf exiles.

No, you miss my point. Which is that people have different viewpoints of lore characters and it is inarguable in the sense that they aren't going to change their viewpoint of such character through argumentation of another viewpoint.

Basically, if someone thought Sylvanas was God's gift to Azeroth (as easily can be seen some do even here on MMO-C) and someone else thought she was the most vile thing on Azeroth - 99.9% of the time it will be a waste of time trying to convince the other that their viewpoint "is the true one".

So argue all you want over Vereesa's importance/unimportance, my point is you can see her however you wish because to me your viewpoint of her doesn't matter. I have my own viewpoint of Vereesa and to me that's enough.

Fair enough, but Veressa is being treated as a proxy for the High Elven exiles as a whole. You build Veressa up it seems, and you build up the High Elven exiles. Therefore is she even shows her face, it's a win for the High Elven exiles.

Yet the reason she is plainly there is because she is Sylvanas's sister. Alleria, who is the only one who speaks during this part of the quest, even opens her dialogue by saying 'Our sister...' clearly establishing the context for their presence.

I am happy to acknowledge Veressa as a character in her own right and debate the pros and cons of her role, but I draw the line at seeing as her as being representative of High Elven exile importance because that is not her role in the story now. Her role in the story is tied to Sylvanas and to Alleria.

Now if you kind folks excuse me, I have more Classic to play

I hope you are having more fun with it than I did, my guildies chose Shazzrah server to roll on and I could not tolerate the queues. By the time they all transferred to a new server I'd given up.

[Rivex]

Learn your place.

Jesus you have a Ego complex.

Think you need to tone it down a bit. Your starting to show off your very young age.

Good Afternoon

[brt2pp]

what's the point of this thread ? high elves are no more in lore, what remained of them are blelfs or void elfes, that is official blizzard stance and i doubt it's going to change. jsut deal with it that blizzard decided to give high elves to horde in burning crusade

[Aldo Hawk]

The resort to the Appeal to Authority fallacy as a way of countering Blizzard's words will not work. The Appeal to Authority fallacy exists because appealing to the words of a presumed authority on a topic to prove something ignores that the individual being cited is fallible.

The reason it fails in this case is that the authority in question is pronouncing on their own creative work, the fictional world of warcraft. An authority can be wrong in real life, but a creator cannot be wrong about their work of fiction.

This dehumanizes the creators implying that their doings are somewhat godly and they can never ever get anything wrong just because they created it.

Writers are fallible. There is nothing godly or divine in written fantasy stories. They get things wrong, they forget things, they change things because they don't know what to do with them.

The Red shirt guy example never has been the parallel you think it is. The question posed by the Red Shirt guy was incredibly niche and related to the purely lore issue of two relatively obscure Dwarven characters. Does this mean a creator was wrong about their work of fiction? No, because it wasn't being wrong, it was an oversight and when it was pointed out to them it was corrected. Being wrong would have meant doubling down on their NPC placement and ignoring the lore that said it was incorrect.

That is not how being incorrect about something works. Your world of fantasy only deceives yourself.

'Isn't falstad dead?'

Doesn't matter what he did after saying that, he got his own creation wrong.

You see... This comes from a fantasy mindset where the doublethink is strong.

You say that he can only be wrong if he doubled down on Falstad being dead. While repeating like a broken record that he would always be right just because it's him.

So you want to be the arbiter on when they are right or wrong?

If he decided that Falstad were going to be actually dead, he would have be and by your own logic it would have not been wrong. Even tho it would be doubling down on Falstad being dead.

'The Red Shirt Gut example' is the most basic example on why the authority -fallacy- doesn't work with this. An author can be wrong about what he creates.

Stating that it is 'niche', 'small', or whatever, is nothing more than trying to diminish the threat to this fantasy of the authority fallacy being correct when it suits you.

On the other hand, Ion Hazzikostas is not a writer himself. His commentary has been proven wrong since we had ways to demonstrate why and how.

Leadership, numbers, hubs, etc...

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Jesus you have a Ego complex.

Think you need to tone it down a bit. Your starting to show off your very young age.

Good Afternoon

You are just showing that you don't have anything to say.

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what's the point of this thread ? high elves are no more in lore, what remained of them are blelfs or void elfes, that is official blizzard stance and i doubt it's going to change. jsut deal with it that blizzard decided to give high elves to horde in burning crusade

Your ignorance does not shape reality.

[brt2pp]

Your ignorance does not shape reality.

it's not ignorace, it's what blizzard say, and since they are shaping the story trying to create your own headcanon is pointless, i mean, you can give examples of none velfs/belfs affiliated helfs all you want, but it doesn't matter and easily refuted by "old lore", "retcon". blizzard are ones creating the story, not you

[Rivex]

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Your ignorance does not shape reality.

Coming from the guy who can't accept the fact High Elves will never be in game as a playable race. Blood elves will probably get the blue eye tint at the very most. Still Blood Elves though just with blue eyes!

"Blood Elves are basically High Elves. Slightly different eye color and backstory, but if you want to be a light skinned elf, that is basically a Blood Elf. Giving that to the Alliance would blur the line between factions.

There aren't a ton of High Elves out there in WoW.

If you are Alliance any want to be an elf, the Horde is there for you."

Developer Q&A with Ion Hazzikostas 24/08/2018

The delusion is with you sir. You can't argue against Ion on this one.

[Aldo Hawk]

Coming from the guy who can't accept the fact High Elves will never be in game as a playable race. Blood elves will probably get the blue eye tint at the very most. Still Blood Elves though just with blue eyes!

"Blood Elves are basically High Elves. Slightly different eye color and backstory, but if you want to be a light skinned elf, that is basically a Blood Elf. Giving that to the Alliance would blur the line between factions.

There aren't a ton of High Elves out there in WoW.

If you are Alliance any want to be an elf, the Horde is there for you."

Developer Q&A with Ion Hazzikostas 24/08/2018

The delusion is with you sir. You can't argue against Ion on this one.

You are wrong, and I didn't said that to you.

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it's not ignorace, it's what blizzard say, and since they are shaping the story trying to create your own headcanon is pointless, i mean, you can give examples of none velfs/belfs affiliated helfs all you want, but it doesn't matter and easily refuted by "old lore", "retcon". blizzard are ones creating the story, not you

It is, you said an ignorant thing. That High elves don't exist anymore and that only Blood and Void elves do. Insulting the intelligence of everyone here.

[bdlovelace]

It is, you said an ignorant thing. That High elves don't exist anymore and that only Blood and Void elves do. Insulting the intelligence of everyone here.

i dont think anyone has said they dont exist. only that there are a few individuals loyal enough that showed up for the fourth war. i dont think thats enough to justify giving the alliance carbon copies of blood elves.

[Aldo Hawk]

i dont think anyone has said they dont exist. only that there are a few individuals loyal enough that showed up for the fourth war. i dont think thats enough to justify giving the alliance carbon copies of blood elves.

Dude, it's in the previous page.

Are you kidding me?

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post51645706

[CottonCandyCastro]

Learn your place.

getaloadofthisguycam.mp4

[alog109]

Just dropping by, and showing my support for High Elves for the Alliance.

[Black Goat]

The funny thing is that when Blizzard doesn't seem to agree with Obelisk Kai, he blatlantly ignores it because it doesn't suits his arguments

Isn't that exactly what you're doing? The irony in your statement is what's truly funny. You all literally ignore Blizzard's statements. You attempt to poke little fan-fic holes in their words and their implementation in a desperate attempt to seem as if you're right when the game very, very clearly shows you're wrong.

It's not really complicated to look at the game, see there are no playable High Elves, and conclude that Blizzard must not think they're worth the effort or that the story they want to portray doesn't leave room for them. Especially since you guys have been requesting them since dirt was invented. They've had 15 years or more to "agree" with you, and they haven't yet. Looks like their stance aligns with Obelisk's and mine. And let's not even get into the fact they've said High Elves are playable as Blood Elves on the Horde side.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

[bdlovelace]

i think he meant alliance high elves dont really have a role to play in the alliance story besides flavor NPCs like being dalaran portal keepers. while alleria and the void elves are firmly with the alliance and fighting the horde. making the portal keepers playable takes away from void elves being developed and just copies the blood elf fantasy into the alliance.

[FlubberPuddy]

As Allied races become rare, the chances that Blizzard will waste a rare opportunity for adding a new race to the game on something that is a duplicate of a core Horde race, and only a mild variant of an existing Alliance Allied race, are so small as to be non-existant. As they said, if you want to play that type of High Elf, the Horde is waiting for you. This position is common sense.

Except, "that type of High Elf" that the players who request High Elves isn't playable. Something even Aucald understands after getting clarification. Also, the entire AR system wouldn't exist if the goal of race options wasn't people wanting to play "that type of X". The very foundation of the AR as a whole is that "hey now if you want to place as this type of dwarf vs that type of dwarf you can."

The comment made by Ion on that day was a Red Herring, as he tried to justify "hey this 'race' is playable - go play them" when the entire purpose of Allied Races isn't completely new races but variations of existing ones. Hence every bit of AR released so far being a variant off of what already exists.

As far as "Allied Races being so rare they wouldn't spend time doing High Elves", I've brought up that they've acknowledged Wildhammer Dwarves as a valid request and those are simply Bronzebeard looking Dwarves with tattoos slapped on them. If these guys are valid, so are High Elves. Not to mention that you seem to keep ignoring that Afrasiabi, post Ion- "horde is waiting for you" QA, said "don't give up hope" and that was specifically a shoutout to High Elf requesters despite the question involving Void Elves, the meat of it was surrounding the High Elf request.

Besides, he's not talking to Void Elf fans when he says that as I recall Void Elf fans are extremely happy to have Void Elves the way they are.

Allied Races might become more rare, but it isn't a system Blizzard stated that replaces getting new races (think of Goblin/Worgen/Pandaren/Blood Elves/Draenei) which you seem to imply a lot. Can we see new races utilized through the Allied Race system? Sure, Vulpera for instance seem likely, but the basis of all AR is from existing races - Zandalari are a modified Night Elf skeleton, just like Nightborne for instance.

You cite the intense desire on the forums as if it was meaningful, I have often seen people cite High Elves as the most requested race ever, but they are also the most protested race ever. As the leaked CM post from the High Elf discord said 'While 'Every Voice matters' is one of our core values, and we value people voicing their opinions, that doesn't mean we have to agree with them. It is quite impossible to please everyone'.

They're the most protested because they're the most popular. It just follows by nature. PewDiePie for instance has 100m subscribers now, how many haters do you think he has in comparison to someone who has 1m subscribers by comparison?

Also it was a Forum Ticket answerer, not a CM that said that.

As you note down below you don't spend time on the official forums, so I'll let you glean some info: Go into the US megathreads of the various Allied Races. ALL of them will have anywhere from 1-X posts dissenting the inclusion of that race as an AR and the more active threads will have more posts dissenting in comparison to the lesser active ones.

Pointing out that the High Elf request has the most dissenters isn't an argument against their inclusion, because every AR has dissenters. The High Elf request has both the most for and the most against because it is the most popular. Just like my PewDiePie example. You will find the MOST haters for him than any other YT creator by nature of him being the most popular.

A WoW example would be Sylvanas for instance. She's famous, so she has the most fans and also the most haters of the playerbase that enjoys Horde leaders. In comparison, Lor'themar who is less popular by definition has less haters but also less fans.

You're trying to make some argument which doesn't make sense. If something is popular it's going to have fans and haters, the more popular it is the more fans AND haters it will have.

Blizzcon 2019 feels to be the last opportunity for them to reverse course and grant a High Elf Allied race, perhaps as part of the hypothetical 'final pair' of Allied races, the ones Ion asked for feedback on in a recent Q and A (Mecha Gnomes and Vulpera are probably a set pair, the hypothetical final pair would be the sixth and last pair).

How come it "feels to be the last opportunity", just because Allied Races will become more rare? If you're going to repeat what I already replied to above, then just re-read the above. Allied Races becoming rare doesn't mean High Elf AR opportunity won't happen, especially if Wildhammer are still valid. AR are not the vehicle taking place of new races.

Just like how in BFA Blizzard stated they're taking a break from Class sets, yet everyone seems to think Blizzard said "we're not doing Class sets anymore" and you see posts mention "I hOpE tHeY bRiNg ClAsS sEtS bAcK!!$!#" when it's like no-shit, they never stated such a thing in the first place.

Same thing with AR, Blizzard hasn't stated it's the only way they're going to bring new races now.

The end of the War campaign has made me far more sceptical that the boundaries between the Alliance and Horde will be weakened. It seems the aim was never to remove or weaken the factions as a result of the war, it was to return the two to a position where they can nominally co-exist and co-operate in the face of future threat. This is in line with Ion Hazzikostas' recent interview with Forbes in April where he ruled out a PVE version of mercenary mode and where he extols the virtues of the faction system as being an integral part of the game. It is also in line with the existence of Void Elves and Nightborne in the first place, as why create Void Elves as a compromise for the Alliance (and then give Nightborne to the Horde as a quid pro quo) if the factions were to be significantly weakened in 9.0? Had that been the plan, and they would have known years ago it was the plan, they would have given Nightborne to the Alliance, Undead Elves to the Horde and surprised High Elf fans with the ability play a fair skinned, blue eyed, majestic elf in the Alliance in 9.0 with the weakening of the factions.

I don't think boundaries will be relaxed either, but the rest of this part not commenting on because I don't agree Void Elves are a compromise for High Elves. Again, post-Ion - Afrasiabi's comment encourages continuation of this very request.

I don't spend time on the US forums. Or the EU forums in fact. I am content to say my piece on this topic here. If someone said that they are wrong. Of course I would quibble and say they should be strictly saying High Elf exiles, as Blood Elves ARE High Elves, High Elf exiles are High Elves and Void Elves are a flavour of High Elf, but I would presume that individual referred to the High Elf exiles.

They will read this I'm sure, so just bolding it for them lol. Also, they specifically referred to the Silver Covenant, but as I said - SC is synonymous with High Elves at this point. If they were referring to High Elves then they'd be immediately wrong as we see High Elf presence in BfA since 8.0.

Fair enough, but Veressa is being treated as a proxy for the High Elven exiles as a whole. You build Veressa up it seems, and you build up the High Elven exiles. Therefore is she even shows her face, it's a win for the High Elven exiles.

Yet the reason she is plainly there is because she is Sylvanas's sister. Alleria, who is the only one who speaks during this part of the quest, even opens her dialogue by saying 'Our sister...' clearly establishing the context for their presence.

I am happy to acknowledge Veressa as a character in her own right and debate the pros and cons of her role, but I draw the line at seeing as her as being representative of High Elven exile importance because that is not her role in the story now. Her role in the story is tied to Sylvanas and to Alleria.

Here's the thing. Someone can make an argument that Vereesa acts as a proxy for High Elves. Just as how people get all jumpy and excited over Dark Rangers happening because of Sylvanas's presence and how people act like Alleria's story = Void Elf story. Whether they're correct or incorrect on doing so is another story, but people do this all the time not just with Vereesa. Nor even the Elven sisters.

Some argued with Rexxar getting a new appearance to mean Ogres/Mok'nathal would join the Horde as an AR, yet no presence of them to be found. It's not uncommon at all that people do this. If they're right in doing so is another conversation entirely.

Although I have no further inclination to go deeper into that line of conversation.

I hope you are having more fun with it than I did, my guildies chose Shazzrah server to roll on and I could not tolerate the queues. By the time they all transferred to a new server I'd given up.

Having loads of fun, am honestly so glad for Classic to exist. Am getting to experience the beginning of the game and it feels good, progress is slow and steady and satisfying. I actually do not see myself buying new expansions for WoW unless they go on sale or have a feature I truly love (like check this I just saw Wish for potential new Worgen druid forms. If they come out with customization like that, I would have reasons to play more current WoW - because gearing in current doesn't feel as great as gearing in Classic. I'm content to finish up whatever content comes in BfA and then grind out all the collectables that exist and going back to Classic and completing what I want to on there.

Condolences for your guild choosing Shazzrah, that literally is the biggest content creator/streamer server so unless they had plans to play with those people they should've chose another server from the get-go. Like on the US side, all the streamers announced they'd be going to Faerlina and so recommended Herod for those not wanting to play with streamers.

Also I hear queues in EU are worse than on US, so that probably had a factor as well for queues lasting longer than US side.

It's definitely gotten more fun as I met guildies from retail who decided to play on the same server I was on. My original plan was going solo on a non-streamer server, though now if the guild falls apart (through boredom or something ) or something I will re-roll to Faerlina on US as a particular streamer is doing great things with creating a strong community presence/guild. That's where I'll go if I find myself playing solo!

[Black Goat]

Learn your place.

Exactly how far is that staff shoved up your ass? Who do you think you are to tell another human to "Learn their place"? Are you like a slave driver or something in a foreign country? Living in the big house too long, it seems.

[Aldo Hawk]

i think he meant alliance high elves dont really have a role to play in the alliance story besides flavor NPCs like being dalaran portal keepers. while alleria and the void elves are firmly with the alliance and fighting the horde. making the portal keepers playable takes away from void elves being developed and just copies the blood elf fantasy into the alliance.

What he said is crystal clear.

And he is wrong.

They are part of the Alliance, as much as Dark Iron Dwarves are.

The only difference is that they are not playable.

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Exactly how far is that staff shoved up your ass? Who do you think you are to tell another human to "Learn their place"? Are you like a slave driver or something in a foreign country? Living in the big house too long, it seems.

Your comment was pretty hilarious, I must admit.

However. You are defending someone who's only intent is to create a bad environment through messages that only have inflammatory goals behind them.

If you feel that I said something out of place, I would strongly suggest that you should reconsider your stance, since it's very wrong.

[Ielenia]

The resort to the Appeal to Authority fallacy as a way of countering Blizzard's words will not work. The Appeal to Authority fallacy exists because appealing to the words of a presumed authority on a topic to prove something ignores that the individual being cited is fallible.

The reason it fails in this case is that the authority in question is pronouncing on their own creative work, the fictional world of warcraft. An authority can be wrong in real life, but a creator cannot be wrong about their work of fiction.

Except we're not talking about objective matters, like how big the continent of Kalimdor is, or how all the different types of magic interact with one-another. We're talking about subjective matters, and, on that subject, Blizzard's "authority" is very much questionable. The "blurring of faction lines" is highly subjective. The "low population" argument is highly subjective. Even the "they look alike" is also subjective.

The Red shirt guy example never has been the parallel you think it is. The question posed by the Red Shirt guy was incredibly niche and related to the purely lore issue of two relatively obscure Dwarven characters. Does this mean a creator was wrong about their work of fiction? No, because it wasn't being wrong, it was an oversight and when it was pointed out to them it was corrected. Being wrong would have meant doubling down on their NPC placement and ignoring the lore that said it was incorrect.

An oversight is still a mistake. It means you were wrong. And yes, the Red Shirt Guy example is a viable parallel, because it shows that what Blizzard says is not 100% perfect and void of errors, and "what they say, goes" regarding their creative work.

The parallel fails because their stance on Blood Elves is not an error. It is actually a sound interpretation of the facts on a matter that is not purely lore, but heavily involves gameplay factors as well. And, in contrast to red shirt's guy triumphant moment when he did make Blizzard realise they had overlooked something, when the pro High Elf case was put to the developers you got a robust defense of the faction divide and a statements of Blizzard's interpretation of the facts, which has been our last word on the matter.

"Sound interpretation" is, again, just your opinion. Because there are lot of controversy regarding said "sound interpretation". Even former Blizzard employees voiced their disagreement regarding said "sound interpretation".

Blizzard's opinions and statements are indeed not above reproach or criticism, it is your right to make those critiques and argue for a change. But what you cannot do is insist that your opinion has equal value, or even superior value, to their own. Stating Blizzard is wrong will get you nowhere. Stating 'this is why Blizzard should change their minds' might lead to progress, but it also implies an acceptance of the facts they have put forth on this topic.

But everyone's opinions do have equal value, since we're talking about subjective matters.

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Coming from the guy who can't accept the fact High Elves will never be in game as a playable race.

Just a 'FYI', "'X feature' will never be in the game" are usually DOA arguments. Because your statement is just as true and false as saying "'X feature' will be in the game".

"Blood Elves are basically High Elves. Slightly different eye color and backstory, but if you want to be a light skinned elf, that is basically a Blood Elf. Giving that to the Alliance would blur the line between factions.

There aren't a ton of High Elves out there in WoW.

"If you are Alliance any want to be an elf, the Horde is there for you."

Developer Q&A with Ion Hazzikostas 24/08/2018

Here's another statement from Blizzard: "You think you do, but you don't."

How did that turn out?

The delusion is with you sir. You can't argue against Ion on this one.

Don't project, please. And yes, we can, and we are.