So Who Did Trump Sell Us Out To? The Intelligence Agency Whistle-blower Scandal.

[Skroe]

Putin pours gasoline on the fire.



"Um...who was suggesting they'd be made public?"

Near as I can tell, nobody. I think Putin is trolling Trump. This seems like a suggestion that something in a Trump-Putin call was concealed for a reason. Hell, maybe that's even true, but I doubt it -- Putin's not stupid enough to do what a recently elected comedian with no government experience, and also the President of Ukraine, would do on what they knew was a monitored phone call. He'd use a back channel, like the NRA.

Frankly, the first thing I thought when we heard they've been "locking down" call Transcripts were "what do you want to bet Trump said some extremely troubling things to Putin, above all others, and that's part of whats in there".

There is a specific reason I think this.

There was a call over the summer in July. But the US press found out that Putin and Trump had it, because they learned it from Russian State Media. It's like the White House really didn't want to highlight the fact Trump and Putin exchanged words. Like REALLY really didn't want to. And they released basically no details.... said Trump wanted to talk about Wildfires.

Does anyone actually think Trump called Putin to talk about fucking wildfires? And that's the topic they stuck to?

If I were Adam Schiff, I would subpoena that call data from the server immediately.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKCN1UR35N

And that's after two known to be troubling calls in March and May.

- - - Updated - - -

He isn't stupid enough to say anything that is going to get him in trouble (Not sure what sort of thing actually would), but he is plenty smart enough to bait Trump into saying extremely compromising shit and then get Congress to subpoena the transcript. At least if he doesn't have any more use for Trump. After all, gaining leverage is what the KGB does, and Putin is still a KGB man at heart.

To be fair though, Trump's been baited by inanimate objects before. It's not really a skill. He's pretty much the easiest man alive.

[rogueMatthias]

Putin pours gasoline on the fire.

"Um...who was suggesting they'd be made public?"

Near as I can tell, nobody. I think Putin is trolling Trump. This seems like a suggestion that something in a Trump-Putin call was concealed for a reason. Hell, maybe that's even true, but I doubt it -- Putin's not stupid enough to do what a recently elected comedian with no government experience, and also the President of Ukraine, would do on what they knew was a monitored phone call. He'd use a back channel, like the NRA.

LOL. No. That whole conversation should have stayed classified at a high level. It shouldn't have got released. I can see why they did it; Even if they had edited the coversation, we'd have had months of speculation about everything and subpoaneas for unredacted versions, and probably tried to subpoenea the leaders of the Ukraine eventually.

Tthis isn't JUST about the US - It's fucking horrific for the Ukraine. They're basically caught saying "We love the US. Fuck Macron, Fuck Merkel and the EU" in the phone call. It's a political disaster and SHOULD have stayed confidential. Of COURSE nobody else would want transcripts like this released.

[Skroe]

LOL. No. That whole conversation should have stayed classified at a high level. It shouldn't have got released. I can see why they did it; Even if they had edited the coversation, we'd have had months of speculation about everything and subpoaneas for unredacted versions, and probably subpoenead the leaders of the Ukraine eventually.

Tthis isn't JUST about the US - It's fucking horrific for the Ukraine. They're basically caught saying "We love the US. Fuck Macron, Fuck Merkel and the EU" in the phone call. It's a political disaster and SHOULD have stayed confidential. Of COURSE nobody else would want transcripts like this released.

We have a right to know. The President is our servant.

We have a right to know whats in all the conversation. And in time will _will_ find out all of them.

As one historian put it: Nixon had tapes, Trump has transcripts.

And in that Secured Computer System, there may be recordings.

Subpoena time. And even if they don't exist, the existence of the investigation into them will cripple the Trump Administration for the next 9 months.

[Machismo]

LOL. No. That whole conversation should have stayed classified at a high level. It shouldn't have got released. I can see why they did it; Even if they had edited the coversation, we'd have had months of speculation about everything and subpoaneas for unredacted versions, and probably tried to subpoenea the leaders of the Ukraine eventually.

Tthis isn't JUST about the US - It's fucking horrific for the Ukraine. They're basically caught saying "We love the US. Fuck Macron, Fuck Merkel and the EU" in the phone call. It's a political disaster and SHOULD have stayed confidential. Of COURSE nobody else would want transcripts like this released.

If you don't like it, blame Trump. He's the one who released it.

[Breccia]

It's fucking horrific for the Ukraine. They're basically caught saying "We love the US. Fuck Macron, Fuck Merkel and the EU" in the phone call. It's a political disaster and SHOULD have stayed confidential.

I remain steadfast that the problem is always "the thing happened" and never "we found out that the thing happened". Symptoms are caused by the disease, not the other way around, and you can't get the cure without the correct diagnosis.

There's a reason things like lawyer/client and doctor/patient confidentiality are waived when the two are conspiring to commit a crime. Maybe Ukraine has different laws, but the general idea is still the same.

And if the concern is "other heads of state should know Trump can't be trusted", well, I'm fairly sure they already know that.

[rogueMatthias]

We have a right to know. The President is our servant.

We have a right to know whats in all the conversation. And in time will _will_ find out all of them.

As one historian put it: Nixon had tapes, Trump has transcripts.

And in that Secured Computer System, there may be recordings.

Subpoena time. And even if they don't exist, the existence of the investigation into them will cripple the Trump Administration for the next 9 months.

Well that's basically been the Dems plan since Trump got in power.

If it was just the US President on the tape, do what you want! I'm just saying it should have remained classified as it's fucked up Ukraines diplomatic relationship with a whole load of countries now.

You CAN'T just release confidential sensitive conversations with other countries whenever you want.

This will either mean that countries won't be able to talk freely on calls or, worse, people will use channels where they don't have to have any thing recorded - which will open up the system to even more abuse.

If you don't like it, blame Trump. He's the one who released it.

YEP. HE should have continued to refuse to release it and kept it classified, no matter how much anyone demanded it.

honestly I see him releasing confiential communication just to help himself as a bigger problem here.

[Noxx79]

Well that's basically been the Dems plan since Trump got in power.

If it was just the US President on the tape, do what you want! I'm just saying it should have remained classified as it's fucked up Ukraines diplomatic relationship with a whole load of countries now.

You CAN'T just release confidential sensitive conversations with other countries whenever you want.

This will either mean that countries won't be able to talk freely on calls or, worse, people will use channels where they don't have to have any thing recorded - which will open up the system to even more abuse.

Not really, the Ukraine can just claim they were bullied into sucking up to trump, which the international community will understand and has experienced in many cases.

So again, are you saying that the problem isn’t trump, but it’s the fact that trumps corruption was exposed?

And I’m also quite ok with the international community being afraid to talk to trump. It makes it harder for him to screw international relations even more.

[Machismo]

Well that's basically been the Dems plan since Trump got in power.

If it was just the US President on the tape, do what you want! I'm just saying it should have remained classified as it's fucked up Ukraines diplomatic relationship with a whole load of countries now.

You CAN'T just release confidential sensitive conversations with other countries whenever you want.

This will either mean that countries won't be able to talk freely on calls or, worse, people will use channels where they don't have to have any thing recorded - which will open up the system to even more abuse.



YEP. HE should have continued to refuse to release it and kept it classified, no matter how much anyone demanded it.

honestly I see him releasing confiential communication just to help himself as a bigger problem here.

Great, and then the public would still be screeching, because he was still trying to cover up for his crime.

[Skroe]

Well that's basically been the Dems plan since Trump got in power.

And it's worked beautifully. He's been managed to be mostly contained and we have the weakest, most ineffective President in 120 years on our hands.

You know when I said "We're taking your President Away From You", I did mean of course, removing him from office. But I also meant that the process would remove his ability to be Presidenting. Which it has. Donald Trump never recovers from what he's endured, and certainly this. His President is over in all but name. Especially in the last outlet of traditional Presidential power - foreign policy. After this Ukraine call, every other foreign leader will avoid him even more than they do, and they'll have their own recordings and be careful what they say in order to protect themselves.

He's tainted goods. And it's a glorious thing to see. I've endevoured to see his power broken since the day he took office, and we're nearly there. I'm very happy about it.

If it was just the US President on the tape, do what you want! I'm just saying it should have remained classified as it's fucked up Ukraines diplomatic relationship with a whole load of countries now.

You CAN'T just release confidential sensitive conversations with other countries whenever you want.

Sure we can. It's our property. It's our recording. To bad for the other side. Maybe they should just not talk to Trump eh? Now you get it. That's the entire point. That's how you break the power of the American President in one of the few avenues of power he had left to him. You make him a pariah.

This will either mean that countries won't be able to talk freely on calls or, worse, people will use channels where they don't have to have any thing recorded - which will open up the system to even more abuse.

They can talk to the Secretary of State, or through other channels. But talk to Donald Trump at your own risk.

Meanwhile, I think the American people are entitled to know what is in EVERY conversation Trump has had up to this point. Let the light of day shine a light on any potential wrongdoing.

YEP. HE should have continued to refuse to release it and kept it classified, no matter how much anyone demanded it.

honestly I see him releasing confidential communication just to help himself as a bigger problem here.

It would have failed, and his lawyers knew it. It would have lead to a court fight that would have seen the House Intelligence Committee or Foreign Relations (jurisdictional) gain access to those conversations.

And the release of the Whistleblower complaint, which was required by law and there was no getting around, made it even more inevitable.

This was happening, period. And more will happen. We at the end of Chapter One of a Thirty Chapter book. And this shambolic presidency is going to be utterly burned to the ground by the end of it.

Burn baby burn.

[Breccia]

If it was just the US President on the tape, do what you want! I'm just saying it should have remained classified as it's fucked up Ukraines diplomatic relationship with a whole load of countries now.

You CAN'T just release confidential sensitive conversations with other countries whenever you want.

Well, first of all, if Trump is acting like a lawless dictator, then sorry, that overrules Ukraine's right to privacy -- especially when they're now a co-conspirator. I do not believe co-conspirators have a right to privacy concealing the evidence that they were a co-conspirator. The term I use instead is "evidence".

Secondly, this is what happens when you stonewall a whistleblower or the ICIG. Maybe if Barr, Maguire, or the head of the CIA apparently had followed the law this wouldn't be a problem.

Thirdly, if the problem is "other countries found out Ukraine was lying to them" well I know a solution to that: don't lie to them. The EU and IMF were giving billions -- far more than Trump withheld. The correct response was "Mr. Trump, that's not true."

"But then Trump would withhold aid!"

Which is extortion. Difference is, at least Ukraine wouldn't have been shown to be part of the problem, but the victim. Take transcripts to EU heads of state, or UN directly, bam. Problem over.

Fourthly, um, Trump has clearly proven he can and will declassify stuff on whim. He did that with Iraeli intelligence he handed over to the Russians. We all know he's a risk, and we knew it well before the phone call. If the Ukrainian President didn't know that, that's his own fault, he runs a country.

Fifthly, if the Ukrainian President said "Surely Trump won't betray me" then he's welcome to add his name to the list of people who said that. It's extensive. There's some big names in there.

And sixthly, I don't see Trump releasing confidential communication as the bigger problem, but I agree it is a problem. He put himself in a situation in which releasing confidential communication would help him. I think that situation is the bigger problem. We can respectfully disagree on which is worse, kind of like if someone stealing from his boss beats up his boss when his boss catches him taking millions of dollars. Which is worse, theft or assault? I think the assault, but both are crimes and the criminal is a low life piece of garbage.

Was your argument the same one Pence raised? I don't know, that part's not public. Does that point have merit? Maybe, but he worked with Trump long enough to know this was a 100% valid risk regardless. Trump doesn't listen to people who tell him what he can't do. And Pence signed up for this and he did it on purpose.

[Poopymonster]

You CAN'T just release confidential sensitive conversations with other countries whenever you want.
.

I believe in the shitshow thread, it was claimed and validated that Dolan can and is legally empowered to declassify things at his whim and whimsy.
So, yeah, he can. He did it with Israel info to his Vladdy if I recall.

[Draco-Onis]

This has been an ongoing trend, it's not something new. DACA, for example, was a sweeping change to immigration policy without so much as a gesture in the direction of considering that Congress is responsible for actually making these laws.

I agree and don't get me wrong executive power should have been reigned in a long time ago, we shouldn't be fighting wars without congressional approval. That said to Pandora's box is open and Trump took a sledge hammer to that sucker, the power of the presidency is officially and legally out of control. This is what happens when republicans only worry about serving the president not their constitutional duties, the next democratic president will have near unlimited power and congress won't be able to do anything to stop him.

If Trump doesn't get impeached that's an even worse precedence the president will officially be above the law not just a DOJ memo and the standards for impeachment will be so insanely high no president will ever be impeached. That's not even going into how now a democratic president can enlist the EU to run opposition research and investigation on their opponents in broad daylight. Trump supporters are day traders who don't think about tomorrow let alone a decade from now.

[Shalcker]

I agree and don't get me wrong executive power should have been reigned in a long time ago, we shouldn't be fighting wars without congressional approval. That said to Pandora's box is open and Trump took a sledge hammer to that sucker, the power of the presidency is officially and legally out of control. This is what happens when republicans only worry about serving the president not their constitutional duties, the next democratic president will have near unlimited power and congress won't be able to do anything to stop him.

That's what Obama did before Trump though. Same concerns were said about "next Republican president" - and, surprise! ... sure, he did use those powers.

If anything, history shows that Congress has no intention of stopping this power transfer and actually taking back those responsibilities from executive branch.

If Trump doesn't get impeached that's an even worse precedence the president will officially be above the law not just a DOJ memo and the standards for impeachment will be so insanely high no president will ever be impeached. That's not even going into how now a democratic president can enlist the EU to run opposition research and investigation on their opponents in broad daylight. Trump supporters are day traders who don't think about tomorrow let alone a decade from now.

Let's start from "Trump is not getting impeached" already - because standards are already insanely high.

Electing enough people like Ocasio-Cortez to change things will take decades (and even that is likely only going to work for urban centers).

Congress is already oldest ever, and with advances in medicine many stay there until they drop (like McCain). And at that age obviously they aren't going to vote for revolution.

What is your long-term plan?

[Draco-Onis]

That's what Obama did before Trump though. Same concerns were said about "next Republican president" - and, surprise! ... sure, he did use those powers.

If anything, history shows that Congress has no intention of stopping this power transfer and actually taking back those responsibilities from executive branch.

Let's start from "Trump is not getting impeached" already - because standards are already insanely high.

Electing enough people like Ocasio-Cortez to change things will take decades (and even that is likely only going to work for urban centers).

Congress is already oldest ever, and with advances in medicine many stay there until they drop (like McCain). And at that age obviously they aren't going to vote for revolution.

What is your long-term plan?

Democrats grow some balls and weaponize this insane level of power to get things done without congress maybe just maybe they will change it when we shove what they call socialism down their throats.

[Shalcker]

Democrats grow some balls and weaponize this insane level of power to get things done without congress maybe just maybe they will change it when we shove what they call socialism down their throats.

Oh, right, "abuse this power from other side even more".

I think eventually that will actually break US up.

And it'll be a coin flip on wherever it'll be fascist or eco-communist dictatorship at the time.

[Draco-Onis]

Oh, right, "abuse this power from other side even more".

I think eventually that will actually break US up.

And it'll be a coin flip on wherever it'll be fascist or eco-communist dictatorship at the time.

You can always dream but even then at least we won't be Russia.

[Shalcker]

You can always dream but even then at least we won't be Russia.

"Our solution to Trump getting dictatorial powers? Why bother, that just means more dictatorial powers for ourselves when it's our turn!"

It's not hard to see where this slippery slope goes.

[Skroe]

You can always dream but even then at least we won't be Russia.

Only reason Shalcker says that is because he's turning what analysts have been saying about Russia foryears (and obvserving about the break up of the USSR) back to America to make himself feel better. It's real weak stuff.

But then again, Russians have never understood America. They didn't in the Cold War and they certainly don't today. Russians are incapable of understanding America because they have no frame of reference in their own history for democratic disagreement. They've been a police state with different names and rationales, but the same autocratic DNA for 300 years. They see this yelling and polarization and they think its a prelude to people shooting each other, because that is their history, and it's why they always go running to the strong man of the day to deliver stability.

Americans love kicking ass... especially their own. American politics is a full contact sport that's only operated under marquess of queensberry rules for short periods.

America kicks is own ass... and then the next foreign threat comes along and we forget about our domestic disagreements for a while, combine like the fucking Megazord and step on some old world idiocy.

And then the world turns and we go to hating each others guts again.

God bless America. I will take that any day of the week compared to being Vladimir Putin's property like Shalcker, and indeed all 140 million Russians are.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

LOL. No. That whole conversation should have stayed classified at a high level. It shouldn't have got released. I can see why they did it; Even if they had edited the coversation, we'd have had months of speculation about everything and subpoaneas for unredacted versions, and probably tried to subpoenea the leaders of the Ukraine eventually.

Tthis isn't JUST about the US - It's fucking horrific for the Ukraine. They're basically caught saying "We love the US. Fuck Macron, Fuck Merkel and the EU" in the phone call. It's a political disaster and SHOULD have stayed confidential. Of COURSE nobody else would want transcripts like this released.

I'ma call you toyko grift from now on. You just do whatever mental gymnastic help you defend the right wing.

[rogueMatthias]

I'ma call you toyko grift from now on. You just do whatever mental gymnastic help you defend the right wing.

Want to point out where I "defend the right wing" in my post?