So Who Did Trump Sell Us Out To? The Intelligence Agency Whistle-blower Scandal.

[Breccia]

Want to point out where I "defend the right wing" in my post?

Siding with the villain of Tomb Raider on this one. Releasing what's supposed to be normal legal conversations between heads of state is not normal and not normally required. rM might disagree as to which problem is more important, but I think we all agree that it's a problem.

On topic: Chris Wallace says the spin on this is ridiculous.

The spinning that has been done by the president’s defenders over the last 24 hours since this very damaging whistleblower complaint came out, the spinning is not surprising but it is astonishing, and I think deeply misleading

Let’s look at what the whistleblower says. The whistleblower says that there was a troubling call in which the president asked the Ukrainian president to investigate and to look at the allegation of this doing by Vice President Biden and by his son. We now have a rough transcript of that phone call and that’s exactly what happened. The whistleblower — and this was back in August — said that for for a very unknown and surprising reason the administration had held up aid to Ukraine. That was not widely known at the time but in fact, it turns out that it was the case.

I guess that’s all I’m really saying. For a lot of the efforts for a lot of people defending the president and pretending this is nothing, it isn’t nothing, it’s something

Now since most of us, maybe all of us, aren't whistleblower experts -- I know I'm not -- I think it's time we heard from someone who is. Like this guy, who worked in the Interior IG office for 10 years, worked with Sen. Grassley for 19 years including director of investigation (so, yeah, Republican), and also is the director of the National Whistleblower's Center. These qualifications are objectively strong, and as such, his opinion has merit.

I read the White House “transcript” between Trump and Volodymyr Zelensky. I read the whistleblower complaint. And I read the IG cover letter. By background, I spent 34 years dealing intimately with whistleblowers and protecting them. I spent 19 years in the United States Senate deeply involved in writing every prominent whistleblower law from 1983 to 2000. I then spent five years as Executive Director of the National Whistleblower Center, which helped write post-Enron corporate whistleblower laws, and defended numerous national security and other whistleblowers.

I have never seen a more buttoned-up set of whistleblower allegations than these.

Now I've been doing a lot of quoting the whole thing recently, and I don't care for it. So I'll sum up, and you can read the rest to prove I'm not just releasing a small exculpatory section then putting the rest in a safe.
1) Honest people who work in government don't like it when bad stuff happens on their watch.
2) Because individuals have less power than groups (how's it going, GM?) they band together when necessary.
3) The whistleblower sounds like more than just a well-informed intelligence official. They sound like a leader. Which in turn implies they're taking both a #1 and #2 all over Trump.

The author suggests there are a good number of willing witnesses out there. It's kind of like suggesting there are 30 Republicans who are ready to vote for impeachment if their vote was confidential.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Want to point out where I "defend the right wing" in my post?

The fact that you defend Trump by saying he exposed corruption... When the investigator even after being pressured and fired said Biden son did nothing wrong. Now your trying to attack government transparency. With a bullshit talking point. Trump is a public servant and so are the other elected officials when they abuse taxpayer money it should be exposed period. He gave them more than they originally wanted after the call took place which is super shady.

Why are all the supposed moderates just right wingers who are to ashamed to admit it or to afraid of criticism. At least on this forum. I'm biased towards the left and Ill admit it. Why can't others. Instead of making these disingenuous attempts at appearing partisan.

(Source on the investigator comments)
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/don...-says-n1059136

The amount of researcher you put into trying to defend Trump versus actually getting information on the Biden scandal shows.

[kaelleria]

Lol... I've been busy at work today and haven't been able to read things.

I find it hilarous that the WH admitted they moved the call to another server. It's like they're trying to get in front of things and are failing horribly.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Lol... I've been busy at work today and haven't been able to read things.

I find it hilarous that the WH admitted they moved the call to another server. It's like they're trying to get in front of things and are failing horribly.

They just know their we'll be no consequences.

[Shadowferal]

Putin pours gasoline on the fire.

"Um...who was suggesting they'd be made public?"

Near as I can tell, nobody. I think Putin is trolling Trump. This seems like a suggestion that something in a Trump-Putin call was concealed for a reason. Hell, maybe that's even true, but I doubt it -- Putin's not stupid enough to do what a recently elected comedian with no government experience, and also the President of Ukraine, would do on what they knew was a monitored phone call. He'd use a back channel, like the NRA.

I laughed. I think Putin is done with Trump.

[Draco-Onis]

I laughed. I think Putin is done with Trump.

If Trump becomes a liability Putin will bury him faster than anyone else.

[Breccia]

If Trump becomes a liability Putin will bury him faster than anyone else.

Depends what Putin wants.

If his goal was chaos, Trump is still the world's number one supplier.

If his goal was specific help from Russia, this has arguably failed. Trump signed the sanctions, crying like a bitch, and the rank-and-file GOP still don't like the country. They lost the NRA. Trump's DoD sent aid to Ukraine and Trump eventually allowed it. However, he's done nothing to North Korea, nothing to Iran, gave away Syria, damaged the US's economy and wants Putin back in G8. That's "two star review on Amazon" kind of review, right there.

It'll be harder for Russia to pull the same trick twice in a row anyhow. Google, Facebook and others don't like being played the fool any more than anyone else. They'll be more careful this time.

[Shadowferal]

Pretty sure that Putin didn't want too much scrutiny on the Ukraine deal.

[Felya]

If Trump becomes a liability Putin will bury him faster than anyone else.

Now that Gabbard supports impeachment, a lot of Americans that do the the Russian trolls act, might follow suit.

[PACOX]

Now that Gabbard supports impeachment, a lot of Americans that do the the Russian trolls act, might follow suit.

Gabbard supports it now? The bandwagon must have changed directions.
-----------------------------------

White House efforts to limit access to President Donald Trump's conversations with foreign leaders extended to phone calls with Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman and Russian leader Vladimir Putin, according to people familiar with the matter.

Imagine your aides having to take away your phone access like a 12 year old.

[Breccia]

The bandwagon must have changed directions.

We have seen multiple people post the same story: 30 Republicans want to impeach but don't want to do so openly.

I also posted an IG for 10 years saying "these honest govt people band together".

You could be right, but it's going to be slow. The GOP really doesn't want to face consequences of their actions, and will drag this out ad ridiculum. Depending on developments, that might last to 2020, where their Democrat opponents are welcome to shove Trump's laundry list of crimes where they shoved Trump's laundry list of failures -- it's getting crowded in there -- and force every single debate question to be "Why do you support this abject failure of a human being?"

The "Party of Law and Order" is trying to cheer this on as a positive, that somehow, Team Trump seeing consequences of their actions will not only fail but turn into a bonus. This must not happen. Once a party is rewarded for actions past unethical into outright illegal, there's no reason to believe they will stop.

- - - Updated - - -

WaPo says McConnell pushed Trump to release the partial transcript, based on the theory that speculation was worse than the result.

I'm sure he's stoked about the result.

[Kujako]

Good summary of the story so far...

[Orbitus]

Good summary of the story so far...

This was great. This is actually a good lawyer compared to other internet Youtube lawyers that I have seen right wingers use.

[Mormolyce]

This was great. This is actually a good lawyer compared to other internet Youtube lawyers that I have seen right wingers use.

His channel is pretty good, he took Youtube by storm back when he started up.

[Orbitus]

His channel is pretty good, he took Youtube by storm back when he started up.

There are right wing lawyers that I have been making fun of since the Covington lawsuit. Because one in particular that I see on right wing channels, Viva Frei said they had an open and shut case. Then one of the lawsuits got dismissed. And I LAUGHED at him. Because he is a Canadian lawyer not well versed on American libel and slander laws. He also thinks that PragerU is going to win the same lawsuit that they had against Youtube that they lost a year or so ago.

[nonameelf]

There are right wing lawyers that I have been making fun of since the Covington lawsuit. Because one in particular that I see on right wing channels, Viva Frei said they had an open and shut case. Then one of the lawsuits got dismissed. And I LAUGHED at him. Because he is a Canadian lawyer not well versed on American libel and slander laws.

The good thing about LegalEagle is he very much does his research on topics. He find relevant laws and revenant court cases and bases his opinions on that while giving that information to the audience as well. Pretty much everything he talks about is sourced and researched.

I'm always impressed by how in depth he goes in his videos considering he's also a practicing lawyer.

[Mormolyce]

There are right wing lawyers that I have been making fun of since the Covington lawsuit. Because one in particular that I see on right wing channels, Viva Frei said they had an open and shut case. Then one of the lawsuits got dismissed. And I LAUGHED at him. Because he is a Canadian lawyer not well versed on American libel and slander laws. He also thinks that PragerU is going to win the same lawsuit that they had against Youtube that they lost a year or so ago.

Somehow I've managed to avoid any shitlord "lawyer" channels. I thought I'd seen them all.

[Breccia]

Trump has all of US might at his disposal, but he is groveling for Ukraine to do it?

There are multiple answers.

A) Trump knows full well there's no legal way to do this, therefore, he's outsourcing to Ukraine, a country he knows is laden with questionable people and Russian connections. He hired Manafort, for example.

B) Trump isn't groveling, he's extorting, because he knows no honest country wants to touch this. Other countries liked Obama/Biden. They don't like Trump.

C) Trump isn't groveling as much as he is making a deal in a back alley. You don't just walk into a shop and say "one drugs, please". Same here. You don't just pick up the phone and say "Investigate my political rival". I mean, apparently you do, but then you realize how bad that sounds and you hide that shit in a safe.

D) The obvious one: Trump needs his rabid fanbase to look at him as the underdog, the oppressed, the scrappy little guy who pushes around the big guy. Obviously that's bullshit, he inherited yuge bigly gobs of cash and used it to hire lawyers to prevent people who sued him from getting their wages. But his narrative "they won't let me" only works if he doesn't do it. He doesn't even just use it on "the Democrats" he uses it on everyone. "I wanted to fly to see you guys, they said the weather was too bad, and I didn't have a Sharpie" when he canceled a flight because of the rain...well, half the time, anyhow.

Exactly how Trump will claim "they won't let me" investigate Biden when his personal lawyer Barr is the head of the DoJ is beyond me, but he's working towards it now. "Oh, the Democrats, they've stopped me from investigating Biden over a thousand days into my tenure, just because they caught me doing it illegally. LOST THEIR MINDS? COVFEFE?"

[ringpriest]

There are multiple answers.

A) Trump knows full well there's no legal way to do this, therefore, he's outsourcing to Ukraine, a country he knows is laden with questionable people and Russian connections. He hired Manafort, for example.

B) Trump isn't groveling, he's extorting, because he knows no honest country wants to touch this. Other countries liked Obama/Biden. They don't like Trump.

C) Trump isn't groveling as much as he is making a deal in a back alley. You don't just walk into a shop and say "one drugs, please". Same here. You don't just pick up the phone and say "Investigate my political rival". I mean, apparently you do, but then you realize how bad that sounds and you hide that shit in a safe.

D) The obvious one: Trump needs his rabid fanbase to look at him as the underdog, the oppressed, the scrappy little guy who pushes around the big guy. Obviously that's bullshit, he inherited yuge bigly gobs of cash and used it to hire lawyers to prevent people who sued him from getting their wages. But his narrative "they won't let me" only works if he doesn't do it. He doesn't even just use it on "the Democrats" he uses it on everyone. "I wanted to fly to see you guys, they said the weather was too bad, and I didn't have a Sharpie" when he canceled a flight because of the rain...well, half the time, anyhow.

Exactly how Trump will claim "they won't let me" investigate Biden when his personal lawyer Barr is the head of the DoJ is beyond me, but he's working towards it now. "Oh, the Democrats, they've stopped me from investigating Biden over a thousand days into my tenure, just because they caught me doing it illegally. LOST THEIR MINDS? COVFEFE?"

You're leaving out one possibility: Trump may have been trying to have his cake and eat it, too; there was a Trump-Putin phone call in the middle of all this in late July (one about "forest fires"), that took place a few days before he finally caved and put additional sanctions in place targeting Russia (that he'd been sitting on for the better part of a year - even the GOP congresscritters were getting fed up). It's very plausible to me that he either promised Putin something about Ukraine, or that Putin demanded he do something on the Ukraine front - Trump's "though process" would have been either that since he was going to withhold the aid anyway, he might as well try to get something out of Ukraine (and smearing Biden is just Trump's style), or he may have seen "investigating corruption" (and damaging a rival) as a better excuse for withholding aid than "doing a favor for my buddy Vlad" (aka. committing treason).

One thing to keep in mind observing this - Trump probably really does think Biden and his son are guilty; he (like many Republicans) has internalized his side's conspiracy theories (thanks Fox News!), and has doubtless watched context-free clips of Biden accompanied by right-wing conspiracy-mongers explaining how awful this was). Trump probably believes most of what he says - and that should terrify everyone with work brain cells.

[cubby]

WaPo says McConnell pushed Trump to release the partial transcript, based on the theory that speculation was worse than the result.

I'm sure he's stoked about the result.

I wonder a couple of things from that. I wonder if McConnell knew about what it said and perhaps what the release of that transcript would do.... Probably not. But if ever there was one to pull the strings from both in front of and behind the curtain, it would be McConnell.