Wall Street Democratic donors won't back Warren

[Omega10]

Separation of powers is one of the most important things our government was built upon, and I agree with you. The more power that concentrates into the presidency, the closer we come to a dictatorship. Trump is a bumbling buffoon, but he's managed to set precedent that the president can do what s/he wants without repercussion. Even if their attempts to do things fail in courts, there's no blowback for it. It's become "see how far you can go, and if you go too far, oh well, nothing happens, keep trying".

The power of the presidency needs to be reigned in massively. Whether it's a Democrat or a Republican, someone will take full advantage of it eventually.

A lot of the Bernie Bros and diehard Warren folks seem to have the same line of thinking as the Trumpkins in regards to the presidency: They see the presidency as something to win, then implement their agenda. They seem to have forgotten that for this country to change dramatically, it must be congress and the senate that does it. They see Warren and Bernie sitting on the throne, implementing universal healthcare, free college, and all their other wet dreams. You're absolutely 100% correct when you say "The people want a dictator."

Both sides see the presidency as something with absolute power to change the country to how they want it, and that's a dangerous mindset. It means that in their mind, even if such a president steps over the line and breaks a law (like we're seeing right now) it doesn't matter, because as long as the president is trying to implement their ideal version of America, they will not hold them in the wrong, they will accept that the president can be corrupt, as long as it means they get what they want. As much as I do not dislike the ideas of Bernie or Warren (and you'll disagree with me on that I'm sure), I don't want it to come about via a single person. Every single major change in American history has happened from the ground up. Through social movements that got people in CONGRESS and the SENATE to recognize that's what people wanted. It got proper senators and congressmen elected to make those changes. These days far too many people are looking at the presidency as some kind of game shark to get what they want, and that's not how it should happen. Congressional and Senate races are more ignored than ever before in favor of laser focusing on the presidency.

And to me that is HORRIBLE precedent.

I'll expound on my previous post to Skroe. As in California, the solution is to get 60 Senators. Maybe this can't be done by 2024, but definitely by 2028 (possibly by 2026). Once California got enough democratic votes so that republicans could not block their bills from passing, California fixed a LOT of their problems. The US has to follow that same path.

Orange County is turning blue. NC and GA are two states that are prime to switch. And others can happen as well. When Obama was first elected, he actually had 60 senators for a short period of time. So it's happened once, though only for a brief time. Now it's time to make it a permanent feature.

Republicans have had a lot of power since 1980. Since then the US has slowly decayed, and in the last two years of Bush it quickly decayed. The last two years of Bush were very bad for the US, especially white males (it was called the Mancession). If Trump is reelected, which I think is about 80% probability, then I believe that the last two years of Trump's second term will be about the same as the last two years of Bush's second term. Very bad, especially for white males.

To achieve the goals you have discussed, it seems to me that the following has to happen:

Warren (or someone like her?) has to be elected. She uses the first 4 years to create blue prints of which versions of which plans she wants enacted. In 2022 and 2024, a HUGE amount of attention is spent towards flipping Senate seats blue. We get to 60 by 2028 or your vision just won't happen.

In 2024 she will face charges of being a do-nothing President due to being blocked by republicans. But she perseveres, wins reelection, and in her second term (or in the first term of her successor), good things start to happen. Exactly as you are talking about in your post.

Look to California to see the results. California is doing better than most states in creating jobs and in creating wealth. It has its dirty laundry plastered all over the news. The governor of Texas worked hard to convince California business to move to Texas. And some did.

This is what the US would be like. Conservatives will scream bloody murder every step of the way about how horrible this all is, just like they did against Obama. The business community will threaten US jobs repeatedly. But yet California is still doing pretty damn well.

California has forest fires, and Trump publicly complains about their forest fire fighting abilities and how corrupt they are. Alabama has tornados and Trump talks about getting them A-1 service from FEMA. Conservatives will pull out all stops in defeating this. And the battle has to be fought.

[nonameelf]

So does that mean she is even more favorable to 'woke independents'?

You would think so, especially after how much nonstop bitching they did about Clinton and Wall Street.

But I have a feeling they'll still pick Trump even after he stocked his cabinet with Wall Street goons over a Democrat who was rejected by Wall Street due to her desire to regulate them and prevent another financial crisis.

[Felya]

You would think so, especially after how much nonstop bitching they did about Clinton and Wall Street.

But I have a feeling they'll still pick Trump even after he stocked his cabinet with Wall Street goons over a Democrat who was rejected by Wall Street due to her desire to regulate them and prevent another financial crisis.

Just like gamergate is silent when Trump blames video games for shootings. Nor are the any gun wielding maniacs trying to save children at the border, like there were at pizza places. The opposition to Obama drones has also disappeared, despite a major increase in drones strikes since Trump. People who touted that Hillary needs to give back millions from her charity to Saudi Arabia, seem to be missing now that Trump holds super secret calls and sends them protection. With all these people gone... I think Hillary has a shot...

[Gestopft]

That has been a crucial thing for political campaigns for 50 years. It's why people running for office go to those $20,000 a plate fundraisers in New York and Miami.

I hate politics and all these people are equally bad"

Perhaps these are related...
Perhaps this is also why Trump got elected.

[Voidwielder]

The American people haven't earned a coddling. And if we - yet again - decide that "our cause" is so much more important than taking care of our constitutional liberal democratic inheritence, that we let the un-American centralization of power continue... well... this country will have truly earned every bit of crap that comes to it this century.

The real problem that US, Americans have to solve in this century is ''how do we harmonise the imperial power with the Republic?'', ie can the Republic survive?

Because as the history shows, time after time, Republicanism does not withstand the pressures of reality that states end up in by simply pursuing their national interests.

[Skroe]

The real problem that US, Americans have to solve in this century is ''how do we harmonise the imperial power with the Republic?'', ie can the Republic survive?

Because as the history shows, time after time, Republicanism does not withstand the pressures of reality that states end up in by simply pursuing their national interests.

I mean it's not some great mystery how to do it. The current inflection point of where America is going is largely due in part to Americans making excuses as to why this time in our history demands a radical deviation from the norm.

The country is rapidly diversifying and isn't the America of my youth (the 1950s) any more...
The climate crisis...
Runaway government spending and the deficit...
The gap between rich and poor...
the assault on traditionalism by media/technology/comopolitanism/moral relativism
healthcare costs and access...


All a load of crap.

The tragedy of the human condition is we live, we suffer, we learn, then we die. And a couple generations later the lessons are forgotten and we go through the whole damn thing over again. That's why, if you recall my national security-related threads, I basically mock the notion that large scale military conflicts are behind the world. Orly? Not the first time that grand settlements have brought about that thought. And always, always wrong. This century, a couple big countries are going to bludgeon each other in an ocean of blood. Just wait. We always forget, especially on thing less important than that.

And that includes politics, because the causes du jour - certainly important - are very far from the first time some group of people have said "well this is super serious and because of that deserves and allows for extraordinary measures".

In the simplest sense, that is basically how the Roman Republic became the Roman Empire, among many other things. That is basically how a lot of tragedy happened.

Americans have been failing that test for decades. It's not just Donald Trump. Let's recall the Global War on Terror, where many people - myself included - spent years rationalizing the fact that the United States tortured people and denied them due process. That was wrong. We were weak. We did it in the name of expediency. We created ticking clock scenarios to justify our weakness. "This time was special. This emergency calls for special dispensation."

Yeah well, the special dispensation known as GITMO is probably going to last another 20 years. Just you watch. Maybe Khalid Sheik Mohammed will pay for his crimes before he dies of natural causes. I rather doubt it. Because we tortured him and tainted any prosecution. Go us. The founders would be so proud of their inheritors.

Want to avoid Imperial America? Weaken the Presidency significantly. Put up some modest reform to legislature operations. Make as many of the non-political parts of our federal government as independently running and non-partisan as possible by applying the Federal Reserve model to them. Start looking to State governments. Limit money in politics as much as possible. Follow the Constitution to the letter.

It's not difficult. Americans just have to have the courage to do it. I don't think we're strong enough to. Case in point, Donald Trump clearly just committed an impeachable offense. It was extortion. It was bribery. It is right there in the constitution. He's more likely than not to beat the impeachment, because heaven forbid we tear down an Imperial President and replace him with... what... his running mate? As the constitution makes for?

The problem of America is Americans and their pitifully low standards for their country, their leadership and themselves. It's as simple as that.

[Flarelaine]

Being declared as an enemy of Wall Street will even bring her Rust Belt votes.

[Gestopft]

Being declared as an enemy of Wall Street will even bring her Rust Belt votes.

That's my view: I get that they need money, but I don't think either candidate is going to lack name recognition. This is going to be one of the highest-visibility political races we've ever had in this country.

[Omega10]

That's my view: I get that they need money, but I don't think either candidate is going to lack name recognition. This is going to be one of the highest-visibility political races we've ever had in this country.

On a practical note, a pretty high percentage of the money that will be spent attacking Warren will go towards TV ads the month before the election. Just like when Obama won. Just like when Clinton lost.

In the race against Romney, I was watching some primetime show which seemed more like a half an hour slam of Obama interrupted by a few segments of the TV show that was being aired.

These ads failed against Obama. Some of the anti-Obama ads unintentionally made Obama look very sympathetic and hard working.

These ads succeeded against Clinton.

Or maybe they really had no effect either way.

Warren will be able to get her messages out. Despite the attempts of the media to discredit her and drown her out with insults.

[Gestopft]

So because rich and corrupt Wall Street tycoons won't support a candidate I'm supposed to not support her as well?

Imagine being so brain washed...

I want Warren (and other Dems when they can) to donor shame the fuck out of the Republicans. I want every Republican to have to twist and turn to defend the de facto corruption in the system.

[Omega10]

I want Warren (and other Dems when they can) to donor shame the fuck out of the Republicans. I want every Republican to have to twist and turn to defend the de facto corruption in the system.

Just make sure we get 60 democratic Senators, a democratic House, and a democratic President along the way. Never lose sight of that goal. Skroe and Butter Emails convinced me that this is necessary.

For President, from another thread I am inclined to like a Warren/Duckworth ticket. It seems to have the best chance of success for the democrats, and these two democrats are very tough indeed.

[Zaktar]

I mean it's not some great mystery how to do it. The current inflection point of where America is going is largely due in part to Americans making excuses as to why this time in our history demands a radical deviation from the norm.

The country is rapidly diversifying and isn't the America of my youth (the 1950s) any more...
The climate crisis...
Runaway government spending and the deficit...
The gap between rich and poor...
the assault on traditionalism by media/technology/comopolitanism/moral relativism
healthcare costs and access...


All a load of crap.

The tragedy of the human condition is we live, we suffer, we learn, then we die. And a couple generations later the lessons are forgotten and we go through the whole damn thing over again. That's why, if you recall my national security-related threads, I basically mock the notion that large scale military conflicts are behind the world. Orly? Not the first time that grand settlements have brought about that thought. And always, always wrong. This century, a couple big countries are going to bludgeon each other in an ocean of blood. Just wait. We always forget, especially on thing less important than that.

And that includes politics, because the causes du jour - certainly important - are very far from the first time some group of people have said "well this is super serious and because of that deserves and allows for extraordinary measures".

In the simplest sense, that is basically how the Roman Republic became the Roman Empire, among many other things. That is basically how a lot of tragedy happened.

Americans have been failing that test for decades. It's not just Donald Trump. Let's recall the Global War on Terror, where many people - myself included - spent years rationalizing the fact that the United States tortured people and denied them due process. That was wrong. We were weak. We did it in the name of expediency. We created ticking clock scenarios to justify our weakness. "This time was special. This emergency calls for special dispensation."

Yeah well, the special dispensation known as GITMO is probably going to last another 20 years. Just you watch. Maybe Khalid Sheik Mohammed will pay for his crimes before he dies of natural causes. I rather doubt it. Because we tortured him and tainted any prosecution. Go us. The founders would be so proud of their inheritors.

Want to avoid Imperial America? Weaken the Presidency significantly. Put up some modest reform to legislature operations. Make as many of the non-political parts of our federal government as independently running and non-partisan as possible by applying the Federal Reserve model to them. Start looking to State governments. Limit money in politics as much as possible. Follow the Constitution to the letter.

It's not difficult. Americans just have to have the courage to do it. I don't think we're strong enough to. Case in point, Donald Trump clearly just committed an impeachable offense. It was extortion. It was bribery. It is right there in the constitution. He's more likely than not to beat the impeachment, because heaven forbid we tear down an Imperial President and replace him with... what... his running mate? As the constitution makes for?

The problem of America is Americans and their pitifully low standards for their country, their leadership and themselves. It's as simple as that.

There aren't many people who are leading that charge right now. What you're asking from your fellow Americans is tremendously difficult. Your reply may be to describe for me how simple it would be, but simple != easy (and frankly containing the amount of power we're talking about would be neither). It's not that Americans are the problem, it's that the problem facing Americans is incredible, and it will take incredible people who can provide a bold, positive vision of the future to lead us away from a future king. What people have accomplished this before without revolution?

The frame isn't "the problem is Americans," who will rally around that cry? It is, "the challenge we're facing is great, are we as Americans up to it?" If that matters to you.

[Gestopft]

Just make sure we get 60 democratic Senators, a democratic House, and a democratic President along the way. Never lose sight of that goal. Skroe and Butter Emails convinced me that this is necessary.

For President, from another thread I am inclined to like a Warren/Duckworth ticket. It seems to have the best chance of success for the democrats, and these two democrats are very tough indeed.

Or at least 51 Senators, but yeah.

I also think that we get there by being a better option. Getting money out of politics is very popular among voters of all parties, and the Democrats are on the same side of the American people on this issue, and they can use this as bludgeon. They need to take this giant influx of small donor Anti-Trump momentum to point out that Republicans are for sale and make them squirm.

[nonameelf]

Isn't the message "Wall Street hates me" exactly the message that captures white males without a college education?

It's at least what they claim. We may get to see if they put their votes where their mouths are by voting for Warren against corrupt Trump. I have a feeling a lot of them won't though.

[nonameelf]

See, many of those voters don't have a clear political identity. They voted Democrats or neither before. It's entirely possible they'll switch if they are convinced Warren will hurt the "coastal elites".

They voted for Trump and he's like the text book perfect definition of coastal elite.

[Mormolyce]

As I keep saying, you may pop a few pustules like Trump but you won't fix the actual problem without massive constitutional reform. Donors should not exist, let alone have the massive power that they do.

[Flarelaine]

They voted for Trump and he's like the text book perfect definition of coastal elite.

Except for the part where someone deemed "elite" should be educated.

[nonameelf]

Except for the part where someone deemed "elite" should be educated.

Well, technically he is. But just technically.

[Vash The Stampede]

I think you underestimate how many Americans hate Wall Street.

Who said Wall Street? I hate Wall Street. Vote for Elizabeth Warren to piss off Wall Street? Of course I would, just watch me.

[Felya]

Except for the part where someone deemed "elite" should be educated.

Trump got an Ivy League education in Pennsylvania. Elites do get an education, but since it’s their daddy paying for it, they don’t have to keep up their grades or even appreciate the opportunity, because unlike us regular schmucks, it was just given to him... he didn’t need to keep his grades up, to maintain a scholarship. Daddy paid for it, no matter what...