Mega-Thread: Impeachment Proceedings & Inquiry of Trump

[Dontrike]

https://thehill.com/opinion/white-ho...obe-is-revived

Did you offer a source with an opinion piece? I don't think you know what source means.

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"bullshit source"

An opinion piece can't be a source, now do you have any actual ones or should we expect more bullshit?

[Felya]

He unveils corruption. No wonder your ilk hate him lol

Maybe you can answer this one for me. No one asserting Biden is corrupt, has been able to answer. Maybe you can do it and best them all. I think you can... /cheer

Why doesn’t Trump start the investigation into Biden, instead of asking Ukraine? Why is Trump letting Biden get away with it?

[Breccia]

Another Trumper leaves the Sinking Ship.

This is important because of the pattern and the timeline.

So Pompeo has been served, the subpoena is asking for documents about the State Department's actions involving Ukraine. Add to that House subpoena, a Senator wants something more specific:

Why was the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine recalled in May 2019? Did you approve that decision?

Now, I'm having a hard time finding a story from that time...just kidding. The internet never forgets.

First of all, this is Trump on FOX News May 6:

I’m hearing it’s a major scandal, major problem. Very bad things happened, and we’ll see what that is. They even have him on tape, talking about it. They have Joe Biden on tape talking about the prosecutor. And I’ve seen that tape. A lot of people are talking about that tape, but that’s up to them. They have to solve that problem.

The ambassador was recalled May 7.

This article was written May 9.

Ukraine's Prosecutor General Yuriy Lutsenko, who in March claimed that the U.S. ambassador Marie Yovanovitch had given him a list of individuals who should not be prosecuted, has been meeting regularly with Trump's lawyer Rudy Giuliani. Some of the meetings took place in Poland, people familiar with the matter said, including on the sidelines of a U.S.-led summit on the Middle East that took place in Poland's capital Warsaw in February.

Giuliani told Newsweek that he last met with Lutsenko six weeks ago. "I have met with him. I interviewed him for two days in New York. I met with him once in Poland…and I may have met with him one other time in America, I don't remember," Giuliani told Newsweek. "I may have just gotten a coffee with him sometime when he was here."

In the wake of these meetings, Lutsenko has been publicly criticizing ambassador Yovanovitch, who was appointed by the Obama administration. Conservative commentators like Laura Ingraham also reported that Republicans were concerned that ambassador Yovanovitch was biased against Trump. The president's son Donald Trump Jr. tweeted in favor of the ambassador's removal, calling her "Obama's Ambassador to Ukraine."

This week, the Trump administration recalled Yovanovitch two months before her scheduled departure. Voicing what appeared to be a number of theories without evidence, Giuliani told Newsweek that the ambassador was "fired" because the embassy under her direction had conspired with George Soros to have a key anti-corruption investigation quashed.

"My interest is really to get everybody to focus on the conspiracy between the Ukrainians, the [Democratic National Committee], and the embassy, including our ambassador who was just fired," Giuliani told Newsweek. "She was using her embassy to dig out negative political shit on Trump, on [former Trump campaign manager Paul] Manafort, and possibly others."

Giuliani also claimed that the U.S. ambassador had "possibly contributed" to the controversial dossier compiled by former British intelligence officer Christopher Steele. There is no evidence to support this claim.

A State Department spokesman told Newsweek that the ambassador's departure would coincide with the appointment of Ukraine's new President Volodymyr Zelenskiy, who beat incumbent President Petro Poroshenko in elections held in April.

"Ambassador Yovanovitch is concluding her three-year diplomatic assignment in Kyiv in 2019 as planned. Her confirmed departure date in May aligns with the presidential transition in Ukraine," the spokesman told Newsweek.

"By throwing a career diplomat under the bus, Pompeo has shown he's willing to put partisanship above the interests of the Department. Yovanovitch has been with State for three decades and served two ambassadorships under the George W Bush administration before being appointed as envoy in Ukraine by President Obama," Carpenter added.

Meanwhile, analysts say that current Prosecutor General Lutsenko has also been used to launch attacks on former Vice President and current Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden. Giuliani has alleged that Biden intervened to have Ukraine's former prosecutor general Viktor Shokin removed from his position because Shokin was investigating a natural gas company called Burisma where his son, Hunter Biden, was working.

Burisma brought Biden's son Hunter onto the company's board of directors in April 2014. Insiders say he was one of a handful of American consultants used to whitewash the company's tarnished reputation. The company released a statement at the time stating that the young Biden would help with "transparency, corporate governance and responsibility, international expansion." Hunter Biden's decision to join the company was criticized at the time.

Representatives from the Biden campaign said that the former vice president did not speak with his son about his work in Ukraine. Giuliani, meanwhile, has called for the U.S. to investigate this alleged conflict of interest.

But experts with knowledge of the case say that Giuliani's version of the story is misleading because Shokin was not responsible for opening the investigation into Burisma. Although an investigation was re-opened within the prosecutor general's office during Shokin's tenure, it was done at the request of Ukrainian lawmakers and Shokin himself did little to move the case forward, experts say. By the time Shokin was dismissed in 2016, the case had already been abandoned.

Daria Kaleniuk, the executive director of Ukraine's anti-corruption action center, says that contrary to the version of events promoted by Giuliani, Shokin helped shield Burisma and its owner from prosecution.

"Shokin was the symbol of lost hopes for justice and a symbol of lost hopes for the reform of prosecution," Kaleniuk told Newsweek. "Under Shokin there were many investigations dumped, and those were landmark investigations into associates of [former President Viktor] Yanukovych."

"I am actually very thankful to the United States and to Joe Biden for being tough on that issue," Kaleniuk added.

Now, it is true that ambassadors aren't supposed to dig up political dirt on political rivals. But Giuliani saying she did, doesn't make it so. Donnnie Dum-Dum Jr. saying it does not make it so. And, of course, you'll note the article (including the bits I didn't quote) already back in May have debunked the rabid fanbase's claims that Biden was acting to protect his son. That's been debunked for months. But let's continue.

What else happened in May? Giuliani publicly announces he is going to Ukraine, to meet Ukrainian officials, to investigate Clinton and Biden. He even uses the term "meddle".

What I said earlier about ambassadors? Circle that part, we'll get back to it.

Giuliani would eventually cancel that trip because of public backlash, only to later meet with them in Madrid in August anyhow when everyone's backs are turned, and then at least eight other times.

And Giuliani's been vocal about it in other ways, such as this June 21 tweet:

New Pres of Ukraine still silent on investigation of Ukrainian interference in 2016 election and alleged Biden bribery of Pres Poroshenko. Time for leadership and investigate both if you want to purge how Ukraine was abused by Hillary and Obama people

From the timeline, it seems we know what happened: the US ambassador to Ukraine was replaced by Giuliani. Communications between the countries were expected to go through him, out of the public eye and outside of the usual ambassador regulations.

Which brings up two points:

1) So, if the former Ukraine ambassador really was fired for digging up political dirt, Giuliani admitted he was doing the same thing.

2) Trump is using a non-government backchannel, and I'm just going to say that's illegal without bothering to look it up.

"But Breccia! What about this complaint from the Ukrainian prosecutor Lutsenko that alleges that now-former then-current Ukraine ambassador gave him a do-not-prosecute list, and also, withheld $4 million in aid? Surely that's a big enough problem to warrant losing her post!"

Hmm. Well, let's count 'em down.

1) We've never seen the list.

2) Trump's State Department denies it.

3) The letter came from the embassy, not the ambassador.

4) Lutsenko is also the one who said Hunter Biden did nothing wrong. So, if you want to use him as a credible source, go right ahead.

5) He retracted his statement later anyhow in April, and the ambassador was fired in May, so that entire premise is invalid anyhow.

6) But let's pretend you handwave all that for whatever reason. Yes, a government official withholding aid in exchange for its intended recipient to prosecute the way the official demands would be unethical and illegal.

(Points to the rest of the thread)

Trump withheld literally one hundred times as much. He lied about the reason at least twice. and hid the conversation where nobody can see it. So if you think it's grounds for removal, I am literally 10,000 percent behind that.

Let's be clear, we all saw in the transcript Trump threatened that ambassador. She'd already been taken out of her post over two months before, and then Trump says "She’s going to go through some things."

Now the envoy is also gone. What do we know about him?

Rudy Giuliani, Trump's personal lawyer, said Thursday that Volker had encouraged him to speak to Ukrainian officials regarding former Vice President Joe Biden and his son Hunter Biden.

In the complaint that sparked the impeachment inquiry, a whistleblower said that the day after Trump's July call with Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelenskiy, Volker traveled to the Ukrainian capital to meet with the leader.

Volker had an unusual arrangement that placed him as a key Trump administration's representative in Ukraine, especially after Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch was reportedly recalled in May.

Even as a top diplomatic official, Volker continued to work at a Washington lobbying firm that represented Ukraine for almost two years after he began his part-time duties as special envoy.

The State Department defended the arrangement, saying previously that Volker "recused himself from all Ukraine-related matters in his other work."

Oh look! He's 100% tied into all of this. Not only did he pull a Manafort, but he worked with Giuliani conveying the message -- further demonstrating that Giuliani was part of the communication between the two countries, in case you needed corroboration.

It looks more and more like Trump removed an ambassador who was at the bare minimum unfriendly and replaced her with illegal communications with illegal staff, with the admitted purpose (thanks Giuliani) of attacking a political rival.

[Kujako]

Why doesn’t Trump start the investigation into Biden, instead of asking Ukraine? Why is Trump letting Biden get away with it?

Because the Socialist Lizard Person Shadow Government is stopping him!

[Felya]

Because the Socialist Lizard Person Shadow Government is stopping him!

Role play Saturday?

Why did Trump put... ah... swamp creatures back in, after draining the swamp? Shouldn’t the people he put in office, do his bidding?

Yeah, it’s not an easy question to answer. It seems simple on “paper”. But, in reality, to answer it... is simply to expose Trump. The answer is merit. Trump can’t launch an investigation, where he can’t present merit. It’s like the voter fraud investigation he launched, where he was able to launch the investigation and then end it at any point.

The reason Trump can’t start the investigation and Ukraine hasn’t started the investigation, is the same. There is no merit to it. It’s why Trump’s request is a “favor”... it’s not going to happen on merit.

Edit: Also, remember, the reason he started hiding his calls on the espionage server, is because he was caught asking Mexico to pretend they will pay for the wall, because not saying it... made him look bad in the press. Something that didn’t actually happen, since his support for the wall didn’t change, after it became clear that Mexico isn’t paying for it.

[Donatello Trumpi]

Maybe you can answer this one for me. No one asserting Biden is corrupt, has been able to answer. Maybe you can do it and best them all. I think you can... /cheer

Why doesn’t Trump start the investigation into Biden, instead of asking Ukraine? Why is Trump letting Biden get away with it?

Why can't asking Ukraine be part of an investigation? How is Trump letting him get away?

[Felya]

Why can't asking Ukraine be part of an investigation? How is Trump letting him get away?

Because it’s not... Ukraine doesn’t have to do anything Trump is saying, while US government is headed by Trump. Trump appointed the US DOJ, with Barr directly appointed by Trump as well. With Ukraine it has to be a favor, with US... it’s part of Trump’s job. So... yeah... that’s letting him get away. Ukraine isn’t starting the investigation, but neither is Trump. How is that not letting him get away?

Edit: Just a reminder... no investigation into Hillary either.

[Donatello Trumpi]

Because it’s not... Ukraine doesn’t have to do anything Trump is saying, while US government is headed by Trump. Trump appointed the US DOJ, with Barr directly appointed by Trump as well. With Ukraine it has to be a favor, with US... it’s part of Trump’s job. So... yeah... that’s letting him get away. Ukraine isn’t starting the investigation, but neither is Trump. How is that not letting him get away?

Biden corruption happened in Ukraine. It makes sense to involve Ukraine to unveil it, you know? lol
If Trump did it the other way, you divas would simply fake-feint the other side instead of this one.

[Felya]

Biden corruption involves ukraine. It makes sense to involve Ukraine to unveil it, you know? lol

What investigation is Trump trying to involve Ukraine in?

[Redwyrm]

Biden corruption happened in Ukraine. It makes sense to involve Ukraine to unveil it, you know? lol
If Trump did it the other way, you divas would simply fake-feint the other side instead of this one.

Because Trump wasn't asking for an investigation in his phone call. He was extorting Ukraine into finding dirt on a political opponent for personal gain. A formal investigation request does not begin with "Can you do me a favor"

[Felya]

Because Trump wasn't asking for an investigation in his phone call. He was extorting Ukraine into finding dirt on a political opponent for personal gain. A formal investigation request does not begin with "Can you do me a favor"

A formal request for an investigation from a US president, doesn’t involve Ukraine. I wish there was a slogan to make Trump understand his might as president of US... something like “America first”? Something catchy to say focus on America and don’t make patriotic issues global... oh well... I’ll think of something...

[-aiko-]

Why can't asking Ukraine be part of an investigation? How is Trump letting him get away?

There isn't an active investigation...what Trump is doing here is soliciting foreign aid against a political opponent. Here in the United States of America that is illegal.

I don't give a shit about the Bidens. Investigate them. But an investigation doesn't begin by asking another country to "look into the Bidens and *nudge* *nudge* *wink* *wink* call Trump's lawyer".

[SirBeef]

Maybe you can answer this one for me. No one asserting Biden is corrupt, has been able to answer. Maybe you can do it and best them all. I think you can... /cheer

Why doesn’t Trump start the investigation into Biden, instead of asking Ukraine? Why is Trump letting Biden get away with it?

What did Biden get away with? The entire Biden Ukrainian gas company/AG thing has been looked at and nothing was found to be illegal.

[Donatello Trumpi]

There isn't an active investigation...what Trump is doing here is soliciting foreign aid against a political opponent. Here in the United States of America that is illegal.

I don't give a shit about the Bidens. Investigate them. But an investigation doesn't begin by asking another country to "look into the Bidens and *nudge* *nudge* *wink* *wink* call Trump's lawyer".

The corruption is in besaid country. Its not an uninvolved third party.
So I guess we cant look into corruption-behaviour if it involves a political opponent now?

[-aiko-]

.
So I guess we cant look into corruption-behaviour if it involves a political opponent now?

What are you not getting here?

An investigation can be started here in the US, and part of the investigation can involve US officials reaching out to Ukraine. Trump cannot take it upon himself to try and get Ukraine to start their own investigation. This isn't "let's investigate the Bidens because they're corrupt" this is "I need to find dirt on the Bidens because Joe Biden is ahead of me in the polls". Else why would he go through so much trouble to sneak around and try to get Ukraine to investigate this outside of the proper channels?

[Felya]

What did Biden get away with? The entire Biden Ukrainian gas company/AG thing has been looked at and nothing was found to be illegal.

I don’t care... I’m willing to argue from the perspective that there is something to get away with. It creates less of a quagmire for devolving off topic arguments, to put the responsibility for investigation on the head of the most powerful country in the world. A country that doesn’t need any favors from Ukraine, as Trump stated to the word, at a U.N. summit just last week.

Edit: If you show there is no merit for Trump to start an investigation, the fact you started the argument with the assumption there is something to get away with, becomes irrelevant. Since the result of the argument negates the initial assumption.

[Kujako]

So I guess we cant look into corruption-behaviour if it involves a political opponent now?

Not if you do so illegally, no. it's like if I broke into your house, that I found all the dead hobos in your basement does not change the fact that I illegally broke and entered your property.

[Felya]

The corruption is in besaid country. Its not an uninvolved third party.
So I guess we cant look into corruption-behaviour if it involves a political opponent now?

We can and should... so why hasn’t Trump done it? Why is he asking a president of another country, when he is already president of ours?

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Not if you do so illegally, no. it's like if I broke into your house, that I found all the dead hobos in your basement does not change the fact that I illegally broke and entered your property.

Also, Ukraine isn’t investigating Biden. Neither is US... What other country can Trump ask a favor from?

[Kujako]

What other country can Trump ask a favor from?

North Korea? They might have a computer or two... but I've not heard the Q-heads claiming that Hillary has hidden incriminating emails in NK like in the Ukraine.

[Felya]

North Korea? They might have a computer or two... but I've not heard the Q-heads claiming that Hillary has hidden incriminating emails in NK like in the Ukraine.

God damn it... Trump asking for the Clinton email server on the call, is Q nonsense... fuck... what a dumb ass...