Too many rewards is not a problem - by Blizzard Dev

[Big Thanks]

@Flurryfang

He also said on the video what happens when we give all the rewards to the players.
"Ok they got everything, now what? Lets make some more things! Some harder things."

So i think we got the formula here.
Is step 1)give all the things, step 2) Create more things.

Alas we have a themepark MMO At least thats how i read it

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And now the highest you can achieve is Titan/Warforge....

The color of the text does not matter and it didn't matter in classic ether. There was Greens and Blues that was BIS over Epic's.

Even in Vanilla there is a point when you only replace epics with another epics, no?
So, even in Vanilla, blue greens always lose their value...eventually.
So i think you are right.

[Nerovar]

I mean, it's pretty obvious that Blizzard's current approach to rewards doesn't really work. AP is an infinite XP bar and everything rewards AP which means that technically you have an incentive to do just about any content but that still doesn't change the fact that you're just grinding for a number to go up that doesn't even have any impressive rewards attached to it to begin with. It promotes a feeling of "missing out" if you don't grind your AP which keeps players playing but how exactly is that a replacement to exciting gear rewards like e.g. getting your Robe of the Void on classic or something similar?
It's like they tasked a robot to design this system.

[Jtbrig7390]

Even in Vanilla there is a point where you only replace epics with another epics, no?
So eventually, even in Vanilla, blue greens always lose their value...eventually.
So i think you are right.

Correct and the same applies to retail. You reach a point where you replace Titanforge/Warforge with other TF/WF items.

TF/WF is the new scale that replaces how Epic's was in Classic.

[Jtbrig7390]

is that a replacement to exciting gear rewards

And Gear was the sameway before because in the end all that mattered was numbers going up. All people wanted was to feel more powerful, That is how it was/is in Classic and that is how it is now.

People want character power, The only thing that has changed is what gives the power and how to get it.

[ls-]

When we talk about items, i think it is important to point out, that we are ofcourse not talking about blue/yellow items, as the devs themselves does not really give them identity, but instead the unique named items, that you get in-game. But when it comes to epic/orange items, i really think, if you wanted to, you could create a lot of identity in the items, if you made them have more uniqueness around them.

Well, the only memorable epic items in post-Vanilla WoW always were either tier sets or epics w/ broken stats budgets or ridiculous procs. Hardly anyone remembers any item for being a good and balanced stat stick

But even if Blizz reintroduced tier sets w/ 2/4/6 item bonuses, that wouldn't solve the issue. ARPGs have fewer issues w/ item identity because any item can drop anywhere for the most part. Do you want to push high lvl GRs in D3? Do more GRs, you'll get everything you need from those. Do you want to do more maps in PoE? You just need to do more maps, you'll get everything you need there O_o But in WoW, tier sets drop only in raids, so it'd turn WoW back into raid-or-die thing. Wanna do higher key M+? Oh, then do more HC/M raiding and then some M+! In certain cases it even applied to PvP as well. Those bonuses were too good to ignore.

Blizz would need to design multiple sets tailored to various activities that can be acquired while doing said activities. We used to have PvP and PvE sets, but now they'd need to make PvP, M+, and raid sets :P That's kinda hard to make so many unique items for each tier. In ARPGs devs simply recycle/buff/nerf the same items again and again. They add only 1 or 2 new uniques w/ each season/tier, but that's about it. WoW devs can't do that.

[Relapses]

I feel like this is a thinly veiled criticism of WF/TF'ing. Rewards should reflect the task at hand and the current system does have a few glaring issues that take the wind out of the sails of the feeling of getting an upgrade. (Spend 5 weeks of progressing the same boss to get a rare trinket that you're in line to receive first because you had perfect raid attendance and performed well... That's a good feeling. To get the same trinket by collecting 15 squirrel nuts... not a good feeling.) The sad part is that I think it's a necessary evil. As long as the current devs are fine pandering to the lowest common denominator, WF/TF'ing has to exist. And thus, gear and subsequent rewards will always feel less epic.

[Flurryfang]

@Flurryfang

He also said on the video what happens when we give all the rewards to the players.
"Ok they got everything, now what? Lets make some more things! Some harder things."

So i think we got the formula here.
Is step 1)give all the things, step 2) Create more things.

Alas we have a themepark MMO At least thats how i read it

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Even in Vanilla there is a point when you only replace epics with another epics, no?
So, even in Vanilla, blue greens always lose their value...eventually.
So i think you are right.

Ohh i completly agree with his idea of "just create more goddamit!!" xD I think when you work with an ever-evolving game like WoW, you have to be ready to just create more and more content

I think where the chain falls off, is that when it comes to WoW, the "some harder things" does not really mean anything if it is only harder than the base lvl. Like Nazjatar is gonna be easier than the 8.3 area, but if you are geared out in Nazjatar gear, the 8.3 area will not really be "harder" for the player, as they have reached a new level of power.

Instead of creating more rewards for harder things, WoW ends up creating a cycle of rewards, which stays at the same difficulty level. The difficulty of enemies and the power of the player follows the same linear curve, which makes it all feel the same. The player is not challenged, yet gain rewards none the less.

That aside, i do agree that we play a Themepark MMO. In WoWs current design, you are not really supposed to feel locked off by anything, but instead enjoy the ride of content funride I just think a different design would be more successful or atleast create more dedicated players

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I feel like this is a thinly veiled criticism of WF/TF'ing. Rewards should reflect the task at hand and the current system does have a few glaring issues that take the wind out of the sails of the feeling of getting an upgrade. (Spend 5 weeks of progressing the same boss to get a rare trinket that you're in line to receive first because you had perfect raid attendance and performed well... That's a good feeling. To get the same trinket by collecting 15 squirrel nuts... not a good feeling.) The sad part is that I think it's a necessary evil. As long as the current devs are fine pandering to the lowest common denominator, WF/TF'ing has to exist. And thus, gear and subsequent rewards will always feel less epic.

Funny enough, you could take his entire talk about badges and switch badges out with WF/TF xD The entire idea of having a tier of content, that is trivial to them, but you do it anyway because it adds a possibilty to gain an upgrade xD

[Relapses]

Funny enough, you could take his entire talk about badges and switch badges out with WF/TF xD The entire idea of having a tier of content, that is trivial to them, but you do it anyway because it adds a possibilty to gain an upgrade xD

To an extent. Upgrading gear is tangible, you can plan around it -- WF/TF'ing is entirely random.

[Mirishka]

I'll point out that the video link jumps to the very end of the lecture--it's Travis Day--skipping over all of the explanation as to why they do as they do. That might be a more interesting discussion than the usual stuff we see around here but you'll have to invest an hour to see all of it. It's from GDC 2017 where game developers get together to talk about what they do, why they do it and how. I've seen it once or twice. It's interesting stuff if you're into game design.

My own opinion: Most players don't play all the time. Over-rewarding the persistent to give a good feeling to those who play less frequently is a valid choice. Stingy reward systems don't especially encourage people to stay around and be aspirational despite what some think. It encourages people to leave.

Exactly. Stinginess with rewards, especially in the most difficulty tiers of content, cost Anthem a LOT of players. For a brief time the game just showered people in loot (as it should have, it is a loot shooter after all) and then Bioware says 'oh that's a bug' and nerfed the shit out of Masterwork/Legendary drops, even in GM2/GM3 strongholds. So you were busting your ass in what was basically a mythic raid for 4 people, and getting the same drops you'd get out in the world if you were playing on easy.

I haven't played recently so I don't know how (or even if) they've addressed that but at the time, it felt terrible.

[Big Thanks]

Funny enough, you could take his entire talk about badges and switch badges out with WF/TF xD The entire idea of having a tier of content, that is trivial to them, but you do it anyway because it adds a possibilty to gain an upgrade xD

I found more funny the random girl on the Q&A extremely salty she never got her trinket and that made both she and her raid friends disheartened.
Im so sorry, but i found it funny.

[Flurryfang]

To an extent. Upgrading gear is tangible, you can plan around it -- WF/TF'ing is entirely random.

But i think it follows somewhat of the same reasoning behind the problem. The problem with the first badge system, was that it gave value to trivial content, that was not really fun anymore for the player. I think the same happens with WF/TF, like with Withered Jim. If Blizz ever makes a really good and interesting item, people will farm that item even long after its content have becomed trivial just for a chance for it to drop.

I think it is connected to the question, should content in an expansion have an expiration date? Should you at some point in an expansion, stop doing something that was released in that same expansion? Some would say, that content can't live forever, that people become bored by it, while some other might say, that the longer you can play some specific content, the better. Im not really sure where i land on that subject.

[Nerovar]

And Gear was the sameway before because in the end all that mattered was numbers going up. All people wanted was to feel more powerful, That is how it was/is in Classic and that is how it is now.

People want character power, The only thing that has changed is what gives the power and how to get it.

You don't think there's a difference between a basically passive 0.x% power up you get for grinding WQs like a lobotomite and working towards actual items with a noticeable impact on your gameplay?

[Flurryfang]

I found more funny the random girl on the Q&A extremely salty she never got her trinket and that made both she and her raid friends disheartened.
Im so sorry, but i found it funny.

It is kinda funny, that it still followed her to that day xD I think most people would have stopped caring after a point and just think "fux it!"
That said, i get her point somewhat. Luckbased random loot can be a bitch sometimes, but i think she is a rare case, where it was impossible for her to a specific item

[Nyel]

Even in Vanilla there is a point when you only replace epics with another epics, no?
So, even in Vanilla, blue greens always lose their value...eventually.
So i think you are right.

It's incredibly hard to get an epic in Classic and you only replace it by epics either from raids or due to crafting (that mostly require materials from raids). In retail you get a dozen epics per day if you want to. There's a massive difference between epics in Classic and epics in retail.

[Big Thanks]

It's incredibly hard to get an epic in Classic and you only replace it by epics either from raids or due to crafting (that mostly requires materials from raids). In retail you get a dozen epics per day if you want to. There's a massive difference between epics in Classic and epics in retail.

There is a huge difference yes...but is somewhat replicated in retail as a watered down version ofcourse. Very watered down.
Leveling up you get blues and greens...then blues from world quests...then is always epics all the way to the end of the expansion.

Extremely watered down, but it tries to recreate the old system i think

[Flurryfang]

Well, the only memorable epic items in post-Vanilla WoW always were either tier sets or epics w/ broken stats budgets or ridiculous procs. Hardly anyone remembers any item for being a good and balanced stat stick

But even if Blizz reintroduced tier sets w/ 2/4/6 item bonuses, that wouldn't solve the issue. ARPGs have fewer issues w/ item identity because any item can drop anywhere for the most part. Do you want to push high lvl GRs in D3? Do more GRs, you'll get everything you need from those. Do you want to do more maps in PoE? You just need to do more maps, you'll get everything you need there O_o But in WoW, tier sets drop only in raids, so it'd turn WoW back into raid-or-die thing. Wanna do higher key M+? Oh, then do more HC/M raiding and then some M+! In certain cases it even applied to PvP as well. Those bonuses were too good to ignore.

Blizz would need to design multiple sets tailored to various activities that can be acquired while doing said activities. We used to have PvP and PvE sets, but now they'd need to make PvP, M+, and raid sets :P That's kinda hard to make so many unique items for each tier. In ARPGs devs simply recycle/buff/nerf the same items again and again. They add only 1 or 2 new uniques w/ each season/tier, but that's about it. WoW devs can't do that.

If something is a balanced statstick, it often is not that unique and is proberly boring. That is why D3 changed their entire attitude towards Legendary gear Instead of just giving good stats, all of the legendary items give some effect, that affects your gameplay in some form, like the gold = armor belt

Again, if you want to create items with a "face" in WoW, you have to have a different attitude towards gear in total. Do you want things balanced? Well then you have to keep the numbers basic and easily compare able, but then things are just...stats. The idea of finding awesome gear goes away when 1 gear piece have to be balanced out in as many areas as possible with other gear pieces in that slot. Do you want to give gear a "face"/identity? Then you have to be ready to have a more funky balance, where different gear pieces might jump up power levels or change the metrics you balance power around. Just look at how tiers often changed the power rankings of some classes, where some were weak before getting 4-set and suddenly rose to massive power. Again, solving a problem creates another.

But as you said, it does not solve the issue, its all about choosing your curse really Even ARPG's have created a problem, from allowing gear to drop from anywhere, as it creates a massive tendensy to farm mindlessly. You don't see content, just an X items an hour kind of activity. WoW has to find its own solution for its own system, that hopefully solves more problems than it creates.

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Some variation of Legion's legendary system might point the way to a design. It wouldn't necessarily have to be legendary items but a more limited pool of items that could last an through a big chunk of an expansion with appropriate upgrades and the like along the way. If you create 700 pieces of gear for an expansion you're unlikely to get anything that stands out. "Starter" versions might be drops and/or vendor stuff. I dunno. The game has so much gear in it--historical and new--it's not a wonder that it's all sort of globbing together at this point. Not to mention that if you're changing gear all the time you're not going to get attached to anything. Accessibility with items not being disposable garbage is hard but they sort of got at that in Legion.

I really liked the idea of legendaries in Legion when it comes to identity. I still remember the rogue legendaries and they helped define the identity of not only the expansion, but the classes themselves.

I heard somebody suggest the idea of 3-5 pieces of gear, that is like Artifacts/Legendaries, that you just upgrade every patch and keep around for longer. Could be an interesting idea, but i see a problem with it when it comes to over reward structure.

Like the problem with legendaries in Legion was in my opinion, that they removed gear slots from the reward system. If you used a neck and chest legendary, all necks and chests that dropped the rest of the expansion, was worthless. It meant less meaningful possible rewards and in the end, reduces amount of good reward experiences(where you get reawards you were seeking) overall.

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It's incredibly hard to get an epic in Classic and you only replace it by epics either from raids or due to crafting (that mostly require materials from raids). In retail you get a dozen epics per day if you want to. There's a massive difference between epics in Classic and epics in retail.

There is also a bunch of pretty worthless epics in Classic xD Like, im not saying that i want Classic without Hurricane, but they were a bit misplaced often.

[Soeroah]

I don't think you can have "too many rewards" in general, but I think the number of rewards in Islands is insane, considering it's the same content, it's totally RNG on RNG and you have about 340 items to collect. That's more than some raids.

It's more a problem with the system to earn those rewards than it is their existence, though.

[Big Thanks]

@Flurryfang

I think its pretty much impossible to give items "identity" in modern WoW...unless Blizzard changes their views in game design.
In a world where we have a talent system made exclusively for players to "not mess up big time" and little "free will" for customization...how can we give life to items in this scenario? Where game balance and following the norm/intended design is mandatory.

[Flurryfang]

Perhaps a solution could be, more gear slots? Third ring, Third trinket, perhaps the ability to have two weapon sets equipped that you can change between with a GCD, the return of class specific slots, maybe sheathes/quivers as a separate item slot

That could be a solution. For every gear piece you "remove" from the reward structure, you add a new gear slot. So if you have 2 legendary slots in an expansion, you add a 3rd ring and a utility slot(quivers/tomes etc.), and then you make it so that items can not drop for you, that is already being occupied by a legendary

I also think you can look to the talk about heirlooms as a way to solve the problem. Many people have been talking about wanting heirlooms to just be a buff instead of gear, so that you don't remove the idea of gear rewards during leveling.
So you could just make it so that legendary effects/stats is a buff you can give to an item, instead of replacing it. That way you can get both things. But then ofcourse, you come to the problem of gear identity. A dagger that is buffed with the values of Fangs of the Father is proberly much more boring than actually wielding the weapon.

It would be like instead of getting ashbringer, you normal blue/epic weapon just got the artifact tree hooked onto it.

[ls-]

I also think you can look to the talk about heirlooms as a way to solve the problem. Many people have been talking about wanting heirlooms to just be a buff instead of gear, so that you don't remove the idea of gear rewards during leveling.
So you could just make it so that legendary effects/stats is a buff you can give to an item, instead of replacing it. That way you can get both things. But then ofcourse, you come to the problem of gear identity. A dagger that is buffed with the values of Fangs of the Father is proberly much more boring than actually wielding the weapon.

So, uh, Kanai's Cube's Archive of Tal Rasha feature? For some reason Blizz chose to add a crapton of mediocre D3 features, but didn't add one of its best. Heck, they could even add Law of Kulle as well, since they don't want to give any sort of control over WF/TF, they could allow us to reroll WF/TF :V