The myths about Classic that have fallen apart

[AeneasBK]

Apologies for inserting myself into this discussion, but I think it's an very interesting.

When talking in terms of RPGs, the "Trinity" isn't a subject of opinion. It's a hard fact: Tank/Heal/DPS.

I'm not speaking from experience here; but I was always led to believe it was the community of WoW which made that, and the Devs had come from the earlier game (Everquest?) in which the "trinity" was Tank/Healer/CC.

The reason I asked the poster; is because they were saying that the Devs had this trinity in mind when designing WoW, whereas I was lead to believe that back when they would have been designing *Vanilla* WoW, DPS was never a part of the Trinity. Maybe it is something that came later, say around TBC time.

By all means refute that with "I've never heard of that before in my life" like I say, I wasn't around back then and maybe I've just been spun some tall tales It seemed to make sense, but then I never played EQ.

It also runs counter to the idea that support classes can't exist, or have no place, because clearly they can, and could. which is why I thought to raise the distinction.

[SirCowdog]

I'm not speaking from experience here; but I was always led to believe it was the community of WoW which made that, and the Devs had come from the earlier game (Everquest?) in which the "trinity" was Tank/Healer/CC.

The reason I asked the poster; is because they were saying that the Devs had this trinity in mind when designing WoW, whereas I was lead to believe that back when they would have been designing *Vanilla* WoW, DPS was never a part of the Trinity. Maybe it is something that came later, say around TBC time.

By all means refute that with "I've never heard of that before in my life" like I say, I wasn't around back then and maybe I've just been spun some tall tales It seemed to make sense, but then I never played EQ.

It also runs counter to the idea that support classes can't exist, or have no place, because clearly they can, and could. which is why I thought to raise the distinction.

I'm a 43 year old gamer, and yes, as long as I can remember the Trinity has always been Tank/Heal/DPS. It's absolutely possible that Blizzard started designing encounters in TBC around having CC in the group comp. But there's a difference between talking about the role a class fills, and the tools that an encounter requires.

Mainly because it's what defines an entire class-theme. ANY class can have a form of CC. The only way CC would come into the trinity is if a class was designed entirely around it. A warrior tank can have a stun, or a fear shout, which qualifies as having CC. And yet the entire warrior class is not centered on having those abilities. Likewise, and DPS or healer class can have CC abilities without having their entire structure designed around it.

Another example of how to think about this: A hunter has a pet which has some tank-like abilities and attributes. And yet the hunter class as a whole is NOT a tank class, but rather is a DPS class because that's its primary function.

I don't even know what a pure-CC class would look like. Would it even be able to do damage? Or would it be purely a support class, similar to a healer? Which classes in Vanilla would be considered a CC-class?

[AeneasBK]

I'm a 43 year old gamer, and yes, as long as I can remember the Trinity has always been Tank/Heal/DPS. It's absolutely possible that Blizzard started designing encounters in TBC around having CC in the group comp. But there's a difference between talking about the role a class fills, and the tools that an encounter requires.

Mainly because it's what defines an entire class-theme. ANY class can have a form of CC. The only way CC would come into the trinity is if a class was designed entirely around it. A warrior tank can have a stun, or a fear shout, which qualifies as having CC. And yet the entire warrior class is not centered on having those abilities. Likewise, and DPS or healer class can have CC abilities without having their entire structure designed around it.

Another example of how to think about this: A hunter has a pet which has some tank-like abilities and attributes. And yet the hunter class as a whole is NOT a tank class, but rather is a DPS class because that's its primary function.

I don't even know what a pure-CC class would look like. Would it even be able to do damage? Or would it be purely a support class, similar to a healer? Which classes in Vanilla would be considered a CC-class?

Sorry, it's late and maybe I didn't write my response properly. I didn't mean to say "Blizzard designed Vanilla WoW with the idea that some classes would tank some would heal and some would CC" I meant that Blizzards strict adherence to any trinity of "Tank/Heal/DPS" (as mentioned by the original guy I quoted) must have come later whereas during vanilla it wouldn't have been so strict as it wouldn't have been as solid an idea yet, due to it formerly being a "Tank/Healer/Control" trinity. Which again, may be complete nonsense *anyway*

Did you play Everquest? (I obviously didn't or I'd be stronger in my conviction )

As for what it would look like, I guess take some of the absurd control abilities that come into play in later expansions like Ring of Frost, or that Death knight one (that worked on Ragnaros when it first came out); or strong as fuck debuffs that minimise enemy effectiveness and give it to a class that does bugger all damage like Paladin. Or a talent tree for priests and other support classes instead of the heal/heal/damage :P Balance could be more about control; and Elemental for shaman, just spitballing.

So yeah, none of this was meant to be a "This is how it was, durr" if anything it was more to air the alternative idea of the Trinity as I had heard it originally was; and see if anyone else had heard that or agreed And all that just because I personally don't see a reason that a "Control" class couldn't exist in an MMO. It may not be a hugely popular class to play, or be stacked in a "try hard" raid comp; but it could definitely have a place that wasn't too unbalanced. Make the control effects scale with a stat, so they get better with raid gear. I need to go to sleep but I'm sure given even a few more moments thought it wouldn't be too hard to find a place for it.

[SirCowdog]

Sorry, it's late and maybe I didn't write my response properly. I didn't mean to say "Blizzard designed Vanilla WoW with the idea that some classes would tank some would heal and some would CC" I meant that Blizzards strict adherence to any trinity of "Tank/Heal/DPS" (as mentioned by the original guy I quoted) must have come later whereas during vanilla it wouldn't have been so strict as it wouldn't have been as solid an idea yet, due to it formerly being a "Tank/Healer/Control" trinity. Which again, may be complete nonsense *anyway*

Did you play Everquest? (I obviously didn't or I'd be stronger in my conviction )

As for what it would look like, I guess take some of the absurd control abilities that come into play in later expansions like Ring of Frost, or that Death knight one (that worked on Ragnaros when it first came out); or strong as fuck debuffs that minimise enemy effectiveness and give it to a class that does bugger all damage like Paladin. Or a talent tree for priests and other support classes instead of the heal/heal/damage :P Balance could be more about control; and Elemental for shaman, just spitballing.

So yeah, none of this was meant to be a "This is how it was, durr" if anything it was more to air the alternative idea of the Trinity as I had heard it originally was; and see if anyone else had heard that or agreed And all that just because I personally don't see a reason that a "Control" class couldn't exist in an MMO. It may not be a hugely popular class to play, or be stacked in a "try hard" raid comp; but it could definitely have a place that wasn't too unbalanced. Make the control effects scale with a stat, so they get better with raid gear. I need to go to sleep but I'm sure given even a few more moments thought it wouldn't be too hard to find a place for it.

I only very briefly played Everquest. Which is strange, because I was a VERY heavy player of text-based MUDs using a dialup modem during the early days of the internet, and later on I played Dark Age of Camelot quite a bit as well. For whatever reason, EQ never really interested me.

I think the idea of a pure-support class has been something that people have wanted for a long time now. Something that is beneficial to the group, but without falling under one of the existing roles of Tank/DPS/Heals. Most likely, as you said, with a large array of buffs, debuffs, and CC. Changing the dynamic to Tank/Heal/DPS/Support.

But I don't think it ever really fit in for WoW. Instead of having an entire class devoted to such a support role, you can see how many classes have support-like abilities. Paladin buffs, shaman totems, druid buffs, warlock fears, mage slows and holds, hunter traps, etc.

What I do believe, however, is as I said before: Encounter design was definitely built on the assumption than any given group comp would have some form of CC. This was a real problem in TBC for classes that either didn't have CC, or had only very limited CC. Shaman, for example, didn't get hex until WotLK. For a long time, Warlock and warrior fear was troublesome until they obtained the option to make the target cower in place instead of fleeing and aggroing everything in the dungeon. Conversely, hunters and rogues were VERY popular in TBC because freezing trap and sap worked on virtually everything except bosses.

But to answer your original question: No, I don't think the holy trinity of class design ever included CC.

[potis]

I think the idea of a pure-support class has been something that people have wanted for a long time now. Something that is beneficial to the group, but without falling under one of the existing roles of Tank/DPS/Heals. Most likely, as you said, with a large array of buffs, debuffs, and CC. Changing the dynamic to Tank/Heal/DPS/Support.

There are games like this, quickest example Bard Subspec of the Rogue in Rift, its damage is atrociously low, its healing was close to irrelevant compared to the other healers and you just did a sort of rotation of rebuffing/passive irrelevant healing-->Big buff/heal every minute.

They probably expanded on it afterwards but for the Chocolate Rift as they call it, its basically that.

The problem is that its irrelevant, you could simply do without it as is the same with any buff class in a game if the skill level/knowledge is higher.

Which is why i believe most MMOs do not bother with such classes, on paper they sound good, but if they are overly powerful, then they are mandatory which is also a balancing problem.

Most pre-Western genre MMOs, aka WoW copies and WoW itself triggering the trend in ~2005-6 after it gained popularity slowly over 2005 they had such classes, but it was exactly as i said, after a point the buffs/debuffs system was scaled to such OP levels that it was mandatory to have one, or to be buffed up to compete.

Elf in MU online,the buffers in Lineage games, Cleric in Knight's Online which as example was its own counter, basically Debuff Cleric or Buff Cleric etc all, things before the wave of MMOs aka 2006+.

[Ange]

What are you smoking here ? The quality of the game dropped dramatically over the years especially in BFA. This is a well known fact and not arguable.
Professions are useless most of the time

Just curious, what is your baseline for professions?

In vanilla it was worthless and a big time/goldsink allready with ROI after maybe 1 year if at all. I min-maxed just as everyone else and just used a hunter for maraudon-solo/Rhok-boost runs and went from vanilla to TBC with 15k gold with zero professions.

In classic it is still worthless and the aoe/dungeon farmers allready making more gold, than any profession could do even after 6-12 months.

How can you see BfA professions as worse than this?

The only time in the history of WoW where professions outshined everything in the game, was in TBC with enchanting/tailoring if (IF) you played a shadow or warlock and it pretty much broke the game, because wearing T6 item power since the first weeks of the expansion was not healthy for the game.

Do you really want to see the TBC idiocy again? Lets random one specific class or role and give them +3 tiers worth of gearpower for 2-4 days of profession grinding? This is your vision of perfection for a profession system?

[SirCowdog]

There are games like this, quickest example Bard Subspec of the Rogue in Rift, its damage is atrociously low, its healing was close to irrelevant compared to the other healers and you just did a sort of rotation of rebuffing/passive irrelevant healing-->Big buff/heal every minute.

They probably expanded on it afterwards but for the Chocolate Rift as they call it, its basically that.

The problem is that its irrelevant, you could simply do without it as is the same with any buff class in a game if the skill level/knowledge is higher.

Which is why i believe most MMOs do not bother with such classes, on paper they sound good, but if they are overly powerful, then they are mandatory which is also a balancing problem.

Most pre-Western genre MMOs, aka WoW copies and WoW itself triggering the trend in ~2005-6 after it gained popularity slowly over 2005 they had such classes, but it was exactly as i said, after a point the buffs/debuffs system was scaled to such OP levels that it was mandatory to have one, or to be buffed up to compete.

Elf in MU online,the buffers in Lineage games, Cleric in Knight's Online which as example was its own counter, basically Debuff Cleric or Buff Cleric etc all, things before the wave of MMOs aka 2006+.

Completely agree. Which is why I think Blizzard folded "support" or CC abilities into existing Tank/Heal/DPS classes as a secondary tool to help flesh out the class without having to try and build an entire class that is otherwise completely useless without a group. We saw a little bit of this with healers in Vanilla WoW, and you'll notice how, over the years, Blizzard has moved further and further away from the dynamic of healers and tanks being useless without a team.

[potis]

Completely agree. Which is why I think Blizzard folded "support" or CC abilities into existing Tank/Heal/DPS classes as a secondary tool to help flesh out the class without having to try and build an entire class that is otherwise completely useless without a group. We saw a little bit of this with healers in Vanilla WoW, and you'll notice how, over the years, Blizzard has moved further and further away from the dynamic of healers and tanks being useless without a team.

Which has caused other issues, mostly WPvP/Irrelevant PvP issues or generally non-arena PvP issues.

But Blizzards stance has been pretty straight forward about it,just people refuse to accept some things like "Balance is around 3v3 Arena, fuck off with your WPvP problems".

[SirCowdog]

Which has caused other issues, mostly WPvP/Irrelevant PvP issues or generally non-arena PvP issues.

But Blizzards stance has been pretty straight forward about it,just people refuse to accept some things like "Balance is around 3v3 Arena, fuck off with your WPvP problems".

Honestly, adding pvp to wow was a mistake from the beginning, especially when trying to use existing pve abilities and dynamics. It has caused more problems with gearing and class balance than everything else in the game combined.

But that's a completely different can of worms we should leave for another thread.

[Charge me Doctor]

When I try to mass pull on my Mage in Modern, I get fucking wrecked. So saying that everyone can pull whatever the hell they want is just bull shit. In both Classic and Modern you will die if you pull too much. Which is why I avoid pulling too much at all costs.

When i mass pull on my mage on retail i can mow everything down during combustion and stay alive using chields, blink and ice block. On retail you just have more limited tools to deal with it.
On classic tho, when i pull 6 or so mobs (for example tailoring quest send you to hunt down spider poachers) i can kill all of them without dying by using arcane power and spamming arcane explosion while kiting them. Maybe use nova+bandage if i got my hp too low.
Classic simply gives you less tools to deal with mass pulls

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Levelling up and gaining something is better than levelling up and gaining nothing. Doesnt matter much what that "something" is.

you still get stat increases and abilities unlock when you ding on retail, but people conveniently forget about this

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[I]
So is cleaning entire house. It takes a lot of time and effort, is it fun? No. Bowling (insert similar activity) on the other hand with friends doesn't take too much time nor effort but it is fun. I'm not delusional here, just because something takes time and questionable effort doesn't mean it's fun.

In my case almost all our guild went to play classic on launch and our new guild in classic had full roster online all the time. Now we have ~3 players on classic and everyone is back to retail and can't be arsed leveling past 50 on classic, because they have more fun on retail for their time.

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Mages are easy mode leveling. I went from 1 to 9 in under 30 minutes as an Undead. Go play a warrior where fighting a mob at equal level is likely to kill you lol. I played a warrior in Vanilla and was a Mythic raider with Cutting Edge achievement on retail and can tell you that not every class is created equal in Classic. I decided against my better judgement to play a Warrior again in Classic, but if I dungeon grind as a tank it is the only productive way for me to level without being killed to a mob I could sneeze at in BFA and it'd die.

If you are playing warrior and fight yellow or orange mobs you are doing it wrong. My wife makes me REEE so hard when she tries to fight level 46 mobs on her level 43 rogue and complains that she needs help.

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Just curious, what is your baseline for professions?

In vanilla it was worthless and a big time/goldsink allready with ROI after maybe 1 year if at all. I min-maxed just as everyone else and just used a hunter for maraudon-solo/Rhok-boost runs and went from vanilla to TBC with 15k gold with zero professions.

Professions are quite fun on vanilla, you can halt your leveling to buy/farm some mats and craft some cool shit to wear (dreamweave set for example) and it'll impact your leveling and fun factor. Professions on retail are barely worth having neither they provide any extra fun

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Honestly, adding pvp to wow was a mistake from the beginning, especially when trying to use existing pve abilities and dynamics. It has caused more problems with gearing and class balance than everything else in the game combined.

But that's a completely different can of worms we should leave for another thread.

adding arenas and "competitive" element to wow at expense of fun was a mistake. They should leave pvp unbalanced fun activity as it used to be

[roboscorcher]

Just curious, what is your baseline for professions?

In vanilla it was worthless and a big time/goldsink allready with ROI after maybe 1 year if at all. I min-maxed just as everyone else and just used a hunter for maraudon-solo/Rhok-boost runs and went from vanilla to TBC with 15k gold with zero professions.

In classic it is still worthless and the aoe/dungeon farmers allready making more gold, than any profession could do even after 6-12 months.

How can you see BfA professions as worse than this?

The only time in the history of WoW where professions outshined everything in the game, was in TBC with enchanting/tailoring if (IF) you played a shadow or warlock and it pretty much broke the game, because wearing T6 item power since the first weeks of the expansion was not healthy for the game.

Do you really want to see the TBC idiocy again? Lets random one specific class or role and give them +3 tiers worth of gearpower for 2-4 days of profession grinding? This is your vision of perfection for a profession system?

How can you possibly say that classic professions are worthless? Have you even played them???

First-aid: I make bandages that help me reduce downtime after fighting 2+ mobs.
Blacksmithing: I can make armor that is actually useful to me. Later on, I can make awesome pre-bis and even a pre-cursor legendary.
Engineering: I can make a massive assortment of awesome gadgets and trinkets, and a lot of them have OP effects or are otherwise useful.

But most importantly, there's only 300 levels. The progression is a reasonable grind, rather than an incoherent slogfest. The crafted items are all relevant at some point while levelling. Retail professions are much trickier to keep relevent as you level your character, which is disappointing. In classic, I find it much easier to keep my professions up at the same pace as my character level.

[Nellyel]

Had not seen this post, my take. Mostly false conjectures, but some are true.

1. True
2. False
3. False
4. True but has exceptions.
5. False
6. False
7. True

[roboscorcher]

Completely agree. Which is why I think Blizzard folded "support" or CC abilities into existing Tank/Heal/DPS classes as a secondary tool to help flesh out the class without having to try and build an entire class that is otherwise completely useless without a group. We saw a little bit of this with healers in Vanilla WoW, and you'll notice how, over the years, Blizzard has moved further and further away from the dynamic of healers and tanks being useless without a team.

That's great. Personally, I am 'done' with the holy trinity model. While healing and tanking is somewhat fun, it offloads too many personal responsibilities (stay alive, avoid damage, deal with the boss) from the rest of the group. In my ideal revamp, healing and tanking would still exist, but as side abilities that hybrids can offer while also dpsing. Tanks and disc priests are almost there already. I would like to see more gear that works for all hybrid specs. I love those classic items that offer a bit of every stat, because in classic, every stat is somewhat useful. Int on a 2h mace? Sweet, more holy proc dmg. Spirit? Awesome, more Consecrate AoE's.

[unbound]

Completely agree. Which is why I think Blizzard folded "support" or CC abilities into existing Tank/Heal/DPS classes as a secondary tool to help flesh out the class without having to try and build an entire class that is otherwise completely useless without a group. We saw a little bit of this with healers in Vanilla WoW, and you'll notice how, over the years, Blizzard has moved further and further away from the dynamic of healers and tanks being useless without a team.

Which potentially isn't a bad idea except that Blizz has been doing it in the laziest way possible. Now all the classes have such identical abilities that there is no flavor anymore.

In Retail, bring any tank you want because it will play exactly the same way as any other tank (naming the abilities differently doesn't change that the heal is a heal), bring any mdps because it will play exactly the same way as any mdps, bring any rdps because it will play exactly the same way as any rdps, and bring any healer because it will play exactly the same way as any healer. On rare occasions you run into a mechanic where some tank or some healer work better, but it still doesn't change how you play that tank or healer.

And this is why so very many of us miss Vanilla / BC / Wrath. After all, this is an MMO, which means that the game is literally supposed to be centered around interacting and working with each other. And this is supposed to be an RPG, which means that each class should absolutely feel unique (as well as having elements that require more than just getting it or using it willy-nilly).

Just because most of industry went to cheaper "every class can do everything by itself" doesn't mean it is a great answer. There are also far more fast food joints around than good restaurants; that doesn't mean that fast food joints are great places to get food.

[SirCowdog]

That's great. Personally, I am 'done' with the holy trinity model. While healing and tanking is somewhat fun, it offloads too many personal responsibilities (stay alive, avoid damage, deal with the boss) from the rest of the group. In my ideal revamp, healing and tanking would still exist, but as side abilities that hybrids can offer while also dpsing. Tanks and disc priests are almost there already. I would like to see more gear that works for all hybrid specs. I love those classic items that offer a bit of every stat, because in classic, every stat is somewhat useful. Int on a 2h mace? Sweet, more holy proc dmg. Spirit? Awesome, more Consecrate AoE's.

Don't get me wrong here. I'm merely discussing it as a matter of history. I much prefer a more free-form system of character design, such as with EVE online, or Path of Exile. This, in turn, requires much more complex encounter design instead of the tired formula we keep seeing with giant damage sponge bosses and excessively specific positioning dances.

I think if Blizzard ever had the courage to move away from the holy trinity foundation we might see new encounters and objectives, such as puzzles in combat, mazes, or other objectives than just "reduce all enemy HP to zero". Other games have these types of things to use as a foundation of examples. Even games as old as DDO have better dungeon designs than WoW's boring corridors full of meaningless trash.

But I doubt that'll ever happen. WoW is too entrenched in its formula, and to be honest, it's probably what most WoW-players actually like about it. I just wish they'd recognize how utterly limiting it is.

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In Retail, bring any tank you want because it will play exactly the same way as any other tank (naming the abilities differently doesn't change that the heal is a heal), bring any mdps because it will play exactly the same way as any mdps, bring any rdps because it will play exactly the same way as any rdps, and bring any healer because it will play exactly the same way as any healer. On rare occasions you run into a mechanic where some tank or some healer work better, but it still doesn't change how you play that tank or healer.

And this is why so very many of us miss Vanilla / BC / Wrath. After all, this is an MMO, which means that the game is literally supposed to be centered around interacting and working with each other. And this is supposed to be an RPG, which means that each class should absolutely feel unique (as well as having elements that require more than just getting it or using it willy-nilly).

Just because most of industry went to cheaper "every class can do everything by itself" doesn't mean it is a great answer. There are also far more fast food joints around than good restaurants; that doesn't mean that fast food joints are great places to get food.

Hmm...I don't know that I necessarily agree with the statement that every tank/dps/heal plays the same as any other class in the role. I've played a paladin, bear, and warrior tanks in BfA. And while at a larger scope of holding aggro and not dying in the process, each of them executes that role in different ways. Enough different that each tank is fairly distinct.

However, see my above post about the limiting the trinity is. The current design is clearly stagnating, and Blizzard's attempts to prop it up with Titanforging and massive culling of abilities that they sold back to us with Azerite gear and War Mode will only go so far. And in many ways, does more harm than good judging by the general reaction to BfA being one of the worst expansions to date, in terms of class enjoyment.

[SirCowdog]

Why do people always say holy trinity is outdated while at the same time never are capable pointing out a working alternative.

I literally just pointed to EVE online and POE as examples of how to do an RPG without the holy trinity..... >_>

Hell, I can go on to point at GW2 and DDO as two more examples.

[SirCowdog]

Are you like serious? Do you play those games? Not only arent there mmorpgs, do you know how those game work/did you ever playy them? The endgame of POE is to optimize so you can clear solo maps/rifts while holding a 1 button. Wow neat system, thats can easily replace holy tritnity!
!
Thats makes as much sense saying they should do a model like street fighter


GW2 PVE is giant zerg fest with not one encounter crafted that is anywhere close as instanced content in wow. Thats actualy the nr. 1 argument people point to where mmos always fall on their face if they stray from holy trinity, if you didnt know.
Didnt play DDO.

You not like liking these games doesn't invalidate my point. All of the games I listed do RPGs without the holy trinity. The fact that they operate differently than WoW doesn't mean they aren't MMORPGs. The fact that they operate different than WoW is THE ENTIRE POINT.

As for "did I ever play these MMOs"? Yes, I have. Which is why I brought them up.

But this sounds more like you just don't like anything that isn't the WoW version of the holy trinity. If you want to move the goal posts to that, I guess we're done.

[Vivapin8]

Are you like serious? Do you play those games? Not only arent there mmorpgs, do you know how those game work/did you ever playy them? The endgame of POE is to optimize so you can clear solo maps/rifts while holding a 1 button. Wow neat system, thats can easily replace holy tritnity!
!
Thats makes as much sense saying they should do a model like street fighter


GW2 PVE is giant zerg fest with not one encounter crafted that is anywhere close as instanced content in wow. Thats actualy the nr. 1 argument people point to where mmos always fall on their face if they stray from holy trinity, if you didnt know.
Didnt play DDO.

For real with PoE I can only imagine him referring to replacing healers, with unlimited use of pots and self heals...what I think will be gone for good are basic mechanics, the ones that allowed you to tank staying in a place and still dodge a attack cause the number in your armor says so, in any modern game to dodge you need to move out of the damn way, check out monster hunter world...

[TheRevenantHero]

I like PoE, stop building a strawman and adress what i wrote.
PoE doesnt play anything like WoW in terms of gameplay system, how or why people play it. POE is not a game that works like WoW in everything but the combat system, like you pretend.

Yes you have it has no bearing because, see above.
Here are other rpgs that work without holy trinity:
Final Fantasy X
Dragon Quest
Phantasy Star
Monster Hunter
Fallout

They arent mmorpgs because they arent mmorpgs, what are you even on about? The devs themself doesnt call them mmorpgs. Who the fuck ever called diablo, which is the same as POE, an MMORPG?

So what are you trying to say here? You want a WoW moba or...? If games opperate completly differnt on goals and systems they are other genres.


I said you cant name a other mmorpg that works well without holy trinity. You cant refute how a mmorpg without a holy trinity system, like gw2, cant produce encounters that are as fun as wow.
No goalpoast has been moved.
You stating GW2 just adds to my argument,

I dunno. I actually prefer the set-up of GW2 because if you die you can't blame anyone but yourself since all healing is YOUR job. Imo, that makes the combat of GW2 superior to WoW because so often people play the blame game because they can.

[Grogo]

Posts on Classic get closed here frequently, not sure how this one remains open when it it obviously is a retail vs classic post. Be consistent is all we ask.