How did blizzard manage to let class/talent design get so bad?

[Lyasandre]

I agree with the first post on this thread, most classes literally have 3 buttons or maybe even less that you have to spam, you play only your spec and "magically" forget everything else about your class, there are no flavour abilities/spells/accessories that defined classes. And overall class design is just bad.
I really wanted to play a ranged dps this expanson but they are so boring I tried for a bit then got bored.

Honestly who enjoys that? The only people that might enjoy this kind of things are mobile gamers and League of legends players who are used to press 4 buttons

[Casperite]

And I think it is. One of us is definitely wrong, but at least one of us is also correct.

Again, subjective opinions. Neither is wrong or right, you both just have different opinions. The fact you think one of you is wrong because of different opinions on what is enjoyable shows a lot more about you than anything else.

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I agree with the first post on this thread, most classes literally have 3 buttons or maybe even less that you have to spam, you play only your spec and "magically" forget everything else about your class, there are no flavour abilities/spells/accessories that defined classes. And overall class design is just bad.
I really wanted to play a ranged dps this expanson but they are so boring I tried for a bit then got bored.

Honestly who enjoys that? The only people that might enjoy this kind of things are mobile gamers and League of legends players who are used to press 4 buttons

People seem to enjoy classic and that has far less buttons. And your statement is hyperbole at best. I have yet to play a spec that literally only uses 3 abilities. Sure there are always going to be only a few you use repeatedly, been that way since vanilla. But you seem to want more than 4 abilities that you spam, that doesnt seem like a good design either.

[Lyasandre]

Again, subjective opinions. Neither is wrong or right, you both just have different opinions. The fact you think one of you is wrong because of different opinions on what is enjoyable shows a lot more about you than anything else.

We have to consider we're talking about an MMORPG, classes should feel immersive, fun and engaging to play and give you a true feeling of being an X class, in the current system can you really deny that the MMORPG part is not represented? Regardless of opinions

[RoKPaNda]

With the exception of Fury warrior and Shadow priest I like the Legion/BFA versions of any of the classes/specs I play more than any of their previous versions.

[Lyasandre]

Again, subjective opinions. Neither is wrong or right, you both just have different opinions. The fact you think one of you is wrong because of different opinions on what is enjoyable shows a lot more about you than anything else.

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People seem to enjoy classic and that has far less buttons. And your statement is hyperbole at best. I have yet to play a spec that literally only uses 3 abilities. Sure there are always going to be only a few you use repeatedly, been that way since vanilla. But you seem to want more than 4 abilities that you spam, that doesnt seem like a good design either.

Specs that only use 3-4 abilities? Sure lets start:

BM, MM, Havoc, Fury, Frost dk, Fire, affliction, destruction, retribution

Those are just some that come in my mind right now, might add more later

[DSRilk]

But it's not. By far the #1 complaint people in this game have is spec/talent design. I've never met a high-end raider in this game that thinks spec/class design issues have not been plaguing BFA since day 1.

Yes. It is absolutely subjective. Your quote below is one of the easiest-to-follow examples of subjective you could ask for. Unless you define a measurable definition of "bad," it is literally nothing more than an opinion, which is by its nature subjective.

Most of the specs in the game just feel bad to play, they just aren't fun.

There are people playing every spec in the game, thus obviously some people are finding them enjoyable. Not every spec is DESIGNED to be pleasing to everyone, because people like different things. Talents are similarly created - designed not to please everyone, but to be an option that some people would enjoy. And DPS loss is not a big deal for a huge percentage of players out there. Your focus on what "high end raiders" think is a core problem in your assessment being anything close to objective as they (per Blizz, who has the numbers to back it up) make up a very, very tiny portion of their player base.

What exactly would your design goal be for specs and talents? Blizz's seem to be to give people a variety of ways to play the game. At that, they largely appear to be succeeding based on how many people play different classes and specs. Some people like fast game play, some like slower. Some like movement, some like to stand still. Some like to worry about procs, some like CD-based rotations. The list of differences goes on. The point is, not every talent and specs can or *should* be designed to appeal to all players. By its nature, giving players different ways to play the game is going to cause people to not like every spec and talent. So the fact that not everyone likes all of them could very well be a sign that the design is working quite well.

The most important thing here though is this: both your and my comments regarding good vs bad are opinions. And as *all* opinions are... they are subjective.

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We have to consider we're talking about an MMORPG, classes should feel immersive, fun and engaging to play and give you a true feeling of being an X class, in the current system can you really deny that the MMORPG part is not represented? Regardless of opinions

Why is "give you a true feeling of being an X class" part of your definition of something being an MMORPG? Why is spec not an equally valid deliniator? Personally, I think all specs should have some tie to their core class, but then again I feel like they do. Regardless, however, I don't think any of that is tied to being an MMORPG. Heck, having characters *without* a class would be a valid approach - plenty of paper RPGs are like that. And shouldn't ANY game be fun and engaging to play? That literally leaves "immersive" as being the only thing left tied specifically to what an MMORPG should be, and I'd argue that's attached to the RPG part and has little to do with the MMO part.

[nRes]

Specs that only use 3-4 abilities? Sure lets start:

BM, MM, Havoc, Fury, Frost dk, Fire, affliction, destruction, retribution

Those are just some that come in my mind right now, might add more later

To be honest having a simple base rotation isn't necessarily a bad thing. Most classes in FF14, in which pretty much all classes are awesome, have a basic 1-2-3-4 combo. However in they also have an oGCD rotation, that ties into the GCD rotation. So you're basically having 2 rotations that intertwine which ends up being quite challenging and very satisfying to pull off.

For example I main a tank in that game and it has a 3 button base rotation, however once you add in all the rest it ends up being something like this(in keybinds "()" being oGCD skills): Fight start > (E)(V) > 1 > potion > 2 > (Mouse 3) > 3 > (X) > 1 > 2 > Q(Y)(E) > Q(4)(E) > Q(4)(E) > Q(Y)(E) > Q(G) > Q > 3 etc. This is without counting any defensive cooldowns or buffs.

Meanwhile in WoW most basic rotations are 1-2-3-4 and you wait for some shit to proc to go boom like SP. It's kind of gutted to play like this...

[Lyasandre]

Why is "give you a true feeling of being an X class" part of your definition of something being an MMORPG? Why is spec not an equally valid deliniator? Personally, I think all specs should have some tie to their core class, but then again I feel like they do. Regardless, however, I don't think any of that is tied to being an MMORPG. Heck, having characters *without* a class would be a valid approach - plenty of paper RPGs are like that. And shouldn't ANY game be fun and engaging to play? That literally leaves "immersive" as being the only thing left tied specifically to what an MMORPG should be, and I'd argue that's attached to the RPG part and has little to do with the MMO part.

Til proven otherwise you're playing the class not the spec, it doesn't make sense and it kills a lot of gameplay to instantly "forget" how to use aimed shot as BM hunter, as for the non class RPG, this game always had and will always have classes, we're not talking about a tabletop game.
Just compare classes from pre cata to current, which version would you say appealed more to the fantasy?

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To be honest having a simple base rotation isn't necessarily a bad thing. Most classes in FF14, in which pretty much all classes are awesome, have a basic 1-2-3-4 combo. However in they also have an oGCD rotation, that ties into the GCD rotation. So you're basically having 2 rotations that intertwine which ends up being quite challenging and very satisfying to pull off.

For example I main a tank in that game and it has a 3 button base rotation, however once you add in all the rest it ends up being something like this(in keybinds "()" being oGCD skills): Fight start > (E)(V) > 1 > potion > 2 > (Mouse 3) > 3 > (X) > 1 > 2 > Q(Y)(E) > Q(4)(E) > Q(4)(E) > Q(Y)(E) > Q(G) > Q > 3 etc. This is without counting any defensive cooldowns or buffs.

Meanwhile in WoW most basic rotations are 1-2-3-4 and you wait for some shit to proc to go boom like SP. It's kind of gutted to play like this...

Although I have never played FF beyond level 15 this sounds pretty interesting already

[Boricha]

An over-obsession with clean and simple design, desire to make E-sports more watchable for new players, and the gradual erosion of the game's RPG elements.

[Lyasandre]

An over-obsession with clean and simple design, desire to make E-sports more watchable for new players, and the gradual erosion of the game's RPG elements.

I think this is the root problem that led to the exact opposite of what they wanted

[Lorgar Aurelian]

But it's not. By far the #1 complaint people in this game have is spec/talent design. I've never met a high-end raider in this game that thinks spec/class design issues have not been plaguing BFA since day 1.

That still wouldn’t make it not subjective something doesn’t become objective just because a lot of people agree with it:

[derpkitteh]

the never ending strive for perfect balance.

everyone should just be strong. start out at a base level. if something is underperforming anywhere, buff it. never nerf, only buff.

make everyone op, make it so every class isn't just another variation of builder/spender, and then you've got wotlk class design back. then life is good again.

[unbound]

I don't think the content in BFA is bad on a fundamental level, outside of them forgetting to add things back to the game (mat vendors, for example) the primary issue with the game is spec/talent design. Most of the specs in the game just feel bad to play, they just aren't fun. You can blame some of this on the GCD change (which to this day makes no coherent sense to me) but many specs have such little talent diversity you could remove most talents and it wouldn't matter even slightly. There are talents in the game that are so bad, they're a dps loss over taking no talent at all. People will play bad content if the specs are fun to play, but when the specs aren't fun to play then no matter how good your content is people are just going to stop.

I really just don't get the mentality blizzard had going into BFA, they were repeatedly warned by people playing the beta that many specs just felt awful and kept insisting azerite was going to fix it, and that never materialized. And because blizzard doesn't like doing large reworks mid xpac, we're now left with a bunch of specs that likely won't be fixed or fun to play until next expansion, if they're ever fixed at all.

The only solution I can see going forward is to roll back some of the massive redesigns they've done over the years and restore classes to what they used to be, and then tune the numbers. Because when we do lose azerite and essences, we're going to be left in the exact same situation we're in now, specs that feel incomplete and clunky to play.

Ultimately, we got here because Blizz has spent less and less with each expansion (yes, there was a surge in spending on Legion, but it was still far less than the early expansions).

Too many people bought into the BS, "Everyone just uses cookie-cutter specs" and trusted that Blizz was doing the right thing when they started massively pruning the talent trees. This was a cost cutting move...it costs more to maintain talent trees with many possibilities and, even though those costs were offset by the fact that expansions cost *far* less than the original game since you are only tweaking the main engine, Blizz wanted better profits.

And it showed in other areas. After Wrath, each expansion had fewer raids and fewer dungeons, more abilities get pruned, and each class starts becoming balanced by virtue of doing the same damage and having the same general abilities (i.e. lazy design).

Legion wasn't nearly as good as either BC or Wrath, but in comparison to what came before it and after it, it felt like one of the best. There was actual effort put into that expansion, unlike WoD or BfA. But even here we get introduced to lazy work...rather than provide more and interesting content, Legion introduced the ultimate in lazy dungeon design...Mythic Plus where you can run the same dungeons over and over again with random affixes that change things only a little bit.

But Legion was, relative to WoD, a big success. So Blizz thought that they shouldn't change much. Thus nearly all specs were the same in BfA...except that Blizz was so lazy in this respect that when they pruned the weapons, they ended up hamstringing some of the specs, and, for those who played Legion, this meant that BfA played like just another content patch for Legion.

Classes have changed over the expansions, but BfA did virtually nothing with the classes in BfA, and Blizz needs to be creative again and work on making classes feel like they've grown, not stagnated. Why are people expected to put out $60 every two years on top of a $15/mo subscription fee for what amounts to just content?

Even with the likely very low subscription numbers of today, Blizz is pulling in large amounts of profit. It's time they spend a bigger fraction of that profit on their customers again.

[Detritivores]

I mean the fact that they insisted on the AP grind and titanforging despite the outcry says everything. They see a metric, they don't see people. But people's patience has limits.

This is the most troubling. Current loot and class design is straight cancer, and they received that message in no uncertain terms. Their response was fuck you guys we do what we want go pay to play a 15 year old "classic" unfucked version of the game next year.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I mean, it should be obvious that class design was guttered and pruned transitioning from legion to BFA.

You lose 5 things and gain 1 thing, that's not fun.

Also, a lot of people are saying class design is purely a subjective opinionated topic. It's actually both objective and subjective.

GCD change is bad design or backwards, fact.

Classes were pruned from legion to BFA, fact.

Class design is nonfunctional in BFA, fact.

While the gcd might be a step back that doesn’t make it bad design and no class design is nonfictional all of the classes work unlike say classic Druid or pallys tanks who just don’t have taunts.

[justandulas]

It isn’t bfa’s biggest and only problem but it certainly is a bad one

Example: my veng dh in legion could easily solo a 40 man raid team all composed of
My veng dh in bfa. That’s not a good feeling in an rpg

I should never be able to look back at my character from -10 levels and feel they could effortlessly kill me and 39 other me’s without even losing his shielding

[schwank05]

I don't think the content in BFA is bad on a fundamental level, outside of them forgetting to add things back to the game (mat vendors, for example) the primary issue with the game is spec/talent design. Most of the specs in the game just feel bad to play, they just aren't fun. You can blame some of this on the GCD change (which to this day makes no coherent sense to me) but many specs have such little talent diversity you could remove most talents and it wouldn't matter even slightly. There are talents in the game that are so bad, they're a dps loss over taking no talent at all. People will play bad content if the specs are fun to play, but when the specs aren't fun to play then no matter how good your content is people are just going to stop.

I really just don't get the mentality blizzard had going into BFA, they were repeatedly warned by people playing the beta that many specs just felt awful and kept insisting azerite was going to fix it, and that never materialized. And because blizzard doesn't like doing large reworks mid xpac, we're now left with a bunch of specs that likely won't be fixed or fun to play until next expansion, if they're ever fixed at all.

The only solution I can see going forward is to roll back some of the massive redesigns they've done over the years and restore classes to what they used to be, and then tune the numbers. Because when we do lose azerite and essences, we're going to be left in the exact same situation we're in now, specs that feel incomplete and clunky to play.

They released Cata.

[bloodykiller86]

But it's not. By far the #1 complaint people in this game have is spec/talent design. I've never met a high-end raider in this game that thinks spec/class design issues have not been plaguing BFA since day 1.

speak for yourself, i love fury right now lol only wish i still had shockwave and odins fury but theyre not making the spec any less fun

[Swnem]

This happened long before Legion. They started back with Mists when they started making it so frost mages just randomly forgot how to cast Fireball and Arcane Blast.

I don't agree with that. Why would a FROST mage need to cast arcane blast and fireball? Don't confuse simplefying the game with pruning. Pruning was mostly harmless and that is the nostalgia speaking. When they went full reset lets simplify classes in Legion was when s**t hit the fan.

[DSRilk]

Til proven otherwise you're playing the class not the spec, it doesn't make sense and it kills a lot of gameplay to instantly "forget" how to use aimed shot as BM hunter

There is no proving to be done. It's a matter of opinion. You may be of the opinion that you play a hunter who specializes in pets or you may play a hunter who is a beast master. Which you regard yourself is a matter of opinion and preference, not fact - so there is nothing to prove. As to "forgetting" aimed shot... you can look at it in a couple ways: 1) You never swap specs and thus you never really learned it, 2) swapping specs means swapping to a different style of combat that simply doesn't involve aimed shot, 3) just like a programmer who learned C and Java 10 years ago, but hasn't used C since then and now only really knows Java, you use what you practice. There are plenty of other ways to rationalize it. All RPGs have this type of rationalization - the question is, does it break immersion enough for you to matter. To me it doesn't.

as for the non class RPG, this game always had and will always have classes

Your comment mentioned it had to have X because it was an MMORPG. That is what I was disputing. I can certainly see the argument that it should favor class over spec because WoW generally leaned that direction in the past (though I don't agree). My point was that being an MMORPG has nothing to do with that as MMORPGs could be anything in that regard, including having no classes at all.

Just compare classes from pre cata to current, which version would you say appealed more to the fantasy?

With two exceptions (very early vanilla druid and WotLK DK), I personally prefer the current classes/specs in most ways. It's perfectly reasonable for us to have different likes on that matter. But to my point, there is no objective reality to the claim that it was better when X or that it's better now. It's all a matter of taste.