Loot Council v. Point systems like EPGP/DKP/etc. - What are your thoughts?

[pmkaboo]

What is inherently the better system for distributing loot in your opinion?

I'm of the school of thought that point systems are superior because they are not potentially skewed by bias, favoritism, cliques, and the like. A group of people who most likely have agendas and or unspoken allegiances are flawed and subjective when divvying out loot compared to raiders earning points through being punctual, striving for 100% attendance, and contributing to the raid/guild through various means.

I'd like to hear legitimate reasons as to why LC is better if everyone in the guild is a contributing member of equal worth. If everyone is pulling their weight and doing everything right, how is LC better than a point system? It seems to me that LC is just a way for buddies to gear themselves up while screwing over new members, trials, and or members not in the "good graces" of the all powerful officers/gm.

LC is better for guilds, point system is better for solo players grouping up.

[Locknrollen]

a corrupt loot council won't tell you they are corrupt when you join. the best you can do is ask them what criteria they base the lootcouncil decisions on and hope that actually matches how they do it.

and on the other side, if you have access to the dkp system before joining the guild, it's super boring to figure out if it's fair or not.

in reality it's more like this: the more successful the guild, the more they can get away with in abusing their members.



lootcouncil is biased by definition. it's entire point is to be biased. good ones are biased to what's best for the guild. most are biased to what's best for the core members and the GMs SO. usually it's not bad enough to really be a problem though, as if you are too biased you will have way to high player turnover, so only guilds that strike a good enough balance survive in the long run. but right now there is no long run yet in classic.



eh depends how you do it. any dkp system worth it's salt will have some protections to prevent the most common causes of abuse/inflation/etc.

in the end both dkp and loot council can be "good enough" but neither can ever be perfect. in a game where loot is sparse and the game itself easy like classic, i think i'd lean a bit more to dkp than LC.

You cant assume that the lootcouncil is corrupt when having this argument. They rarely are.

Ive run lootcouncils for several years and can count on one hand the times there has been drama over loot, If its handled correctly (which isnt hard), everyone should always be aware of the reasons you make your decicions.
There are rules you use to avoid corruption.

And yes dkp systems protect against abuse and inflation. That was not my point thou. No system rewards you for doing more than bare minimum.

[hadtoregistertolaughatyou]

I see this argument a lot. But really progression orientated on classic? The content is known it has been shown to be destroyed in no time. From what I gather on private servers even AQ40 and Nax are done with relative ease. I see no reason to be this strict on loot on what is comparatively easy raid content.

On Mythic raids in retail sure I could understand it. Thats difficult content and people have a hard time with it and you need any advantage you can get. Not on classic wow. Certainly not on MC and Onyxia.

Ah, that's why almost nobody even entered Naxx when it originally existed. Clearly because it was so freaking easy!


Dude, it's obvious that you're an active retail player and are talking your challenges hard and others challenges easy.


Believe me, if people had 14 years to practice clearing your so-hard mythic whatever, random groups could stomp it in no time either.

[Sezh]

I don't believe there's an objective guild out there. Humans are inherently flawed and it's all subjective with LC.

Only if you view gear as some kind of reward with any value in and of itself.

[fjeenzy]

Depends what your goal is. I hate dkp systems, becuase I don't like giving items that are not good for certain classes to those classes. If you start putting rules into what items you can bid on, you've already entered a slippery slope.

A loot council whos aims are a long standing and well working guild will always favor the dedicated and good players.

Of course, it's going to be different for everyone. I prefer giving loot to people who will use it well, not to people who show up but perform poorly.

[anon5123]

DKP rewards "who showed up"

Loot council rewards "who showed up", "who did the mechanics properly", "who came prepared with consumes/world buffs", "who got an item recently", "is this item uber-bis for a certain class/spec", etc. etc.

There's just so much more depth to the decisionmaking in loot council.

Plus with DKP you have people trying to game the system by intentionally bidding on things they don't want in order to drive the price up for other people and make them spend more DKP. Or intentionally NOT bidding on something they need, because they want to save up for another, more contested item. It's just a mess and leads to tons of drama. I'd know because I was in a DKP guild for almost 3 years and this shit happened pretty regularly.

[Heathy]

so far we've done 3 raids with dkp, the only drama Ive seen so far is 1 or 2 ppl gquitting because they didn't get the guilds first enchant recipe. kinda makes sense to make sure shit like that stays in the guild. we do dkp with priority bids, you can't win an item you can't use. certain items have already been explained, bindings are MT prio and will cost the tank that gets them 1000 dkp, with us earning 150 per raid (+25 for new kills) and min bid being 150, onys head also tank prio, I think the band of acuria was melee prio. you can loot council with dkp, or at least you can control who is allowed to bid on and who has priority on specific items.

there is no content currently in the game, that requires you to funnel loot to anyone. the current end game can be done in blues with several ppl not level 60, again why do you need to give gear to certain ppl? when there is likely enough raid lockouts to get enough gear whether you do dkp loot council or just roll for it. by the time it even matters, phase 3, if you're clearing mc and ony weekly, you'll have enough gear in the right places regardless.

I did dkp in classic although the guild i was in was pretty casual, i don't remember any drama, I kinda just remember ppl bidding on items they wanted, getting those items, then doing a raid where they didn't bid on anything. in tbc we did dkp, again, I don't remember any drama, just loot being distributed with a bidding system. I know the system can be used in such a way that you can bid without the intention of winning, just to increase the price for another person, this is only possible when all ppl bidding still need that item. but the whole point of dkp is to bid what you think the value of that item is, and pass when you don't want to pay more. so open with what you're willing to pay for it. and then pass if someone tries to raise.

if anything the main issue with DKP right now is that T2 is kinda meh, you can't complete the 3 peice set bonus, so, why waste dkp on a set you can't get. can see ppl are like hmmm t2 will be nice to have EVENTUALLY but right now it fucking useless. ofc ppl want t2, but noone really wants to bid their minimal amounts of dkp on a set they can't get. personally i'm going for 8pt might and i'm passing on t2 until p3, ill go for the sunder bonus. I'm tanking but I'm quite possibly going to pass on the bindings, I like raiding, but I don't want to be that guy, i'd rather just be a good tank, going for TF, its a commitment.

[Uselessrouge]

going got DKP cause we can clear everything in blues , no need to waste time with loot drama