[Speculation and spoilers] Sylvanas and Death

[Goradan]

It would be pretty epic if it is revealed to be Yogg-Saron after all. It would also be very fitting, too.

Yoggy's final words were "The Shadow of My Corpse will Choke The Land Forever." We know Saronite, which is made from his blood can drive people insane and it's easy to presume that's what he was eluding to. What if there was a second meaning to that? What if he was pulling an Undertaker and basically saying "You cannot kill that which refuses to die"? It would certainly be to his advantage to have everyone think they killed him in Ulduar but as was recently revealed, his power still lingers. He could certainly just be biding his time for now and...yeah.

Sylvanas Impaled herself on the spires of Icecrown, So I wouldn't be surprised if the vision she saw was the afterlife/Shadowlands that Yogg-Saron controlled, which then lead to her getting some kind of Saronite poisoning in addition to her being scared of death until BfA were she' so delusional to think she can escape her fate or at least not suffer when she dies for good.

[Haosmash]

Why not Yogg'saron?

[huth]

Disorder/Fel kind of stand in for Chaos, I'd argue - based on the description from "Chronicle Vol .1" they're essentially synonymous on the cosmological scale.

Not really. Disorder explicitly excludes Order, Chaos would include it.

[DeltrusDisc]

Think back to ICC. After Arthas's death, Sylvanas jumps to her own death and is resurrected by the Val'kyr. But what if those Val'kyr weren't previously aligned with Arthas, but served a different master? A master, or "god", of Death. A certain old god who called himself the "God of Death", and who many suspect isn't actually dead.

During the Black Empire, N'Zoth was considered the weakest (if perhaps the smartest and most cunning) of the old gods. We can surmise that he "served" the other old gods in some way. In the loyalist scene, Sylvanas states that "in the end, he (N'Zoth) too will serve Death." (Note the capital D there, so she's using it as a pronoun, referring to an entity, not a concept or state of being.)

If Sylvanas is in fact serving Yogg, that would explain one hell of a lot. Vol'Jin being advised to name Sylvanas Warchief. Bwonsamdi not knowing anything about it. Sylvanas utter lack of concern for the Horde or the living in general other than as a means to an end. Her willingness to strike a bargain with Azshara, another servant of an old god. Sylvanas's newfound powers like being able to one-shot Varok and then turn into a dementor and fly away.


Right now, this theory makes a lot of sense to me, and perhaps it gives Blizzard a way to get Sylvanas out of this predicament without having to kill her off. (To be clear, I am not a writer and I can see how this would be unsatisfying to some. That doesn't invalidate the logic of how it would fit the story we've been told so far.) Someone please shoot holes in this theory.

Sylvanas has been a Banshee (and thus able to fly...) for a long long time.

Like since Arthas ripped her soul out and cursed her to be a Banshee.

[Dannihilate]

At this point there have been so many characters referring to themselves as the lord of death that it's hard to keep track of them all.
Yogg, Lich King (who for some unknown reason now cares about "the balance?"), Deathwing referred to himself as the Aspect of Death, Helya, Odyn could almost be considered considering he takes the souls of fallen heroes, Eyir, Bwonsamdi plus like 3 other Loa who share the title of Loa of Death/the Grave, Hakkar, Bwonsamdi's boss, and the list just keeps going.

[Aucald]

Not really. Disorder explicitly excludes Order, Chaos would include it.

Chaos includes Order? Isn't Chaos the diametric opposite of Order in most systems?

[huth]

Chaos includes Order? Isn't Chaos the diametric opposite of Order in most systems?

Chaos is everything. Order can happen randomly. Disorder explicitly excludes that possibility.

[Aucald]

Chaos is everything. Order can happen randomly. Disorder explicitly excludes that possibility.

I think you're referring to the more obscure form of "chaos" as the primordial or cosmogenic chaos, like hearkening back to the Babylonian myths of Tiamat and other primordial progenitor figures. That's not really how most people use the term "chaos" in common parlance - chaos is more commonly referred to as complete disorder or confusion, such as the complete absence of order in a given context. You're right about Chaos in its form as primordial or primal chaos (that which predates universal creation itself), but that's not really how it's being used here.

[Moody Blue]

There seem to be several death entities: Lich King, Bwonsamdi, Gorak Tul and Helya.

[huth]

I think you're referring to the more obscure form of "chaos" as the primordial or cosmogenic chaos, like hearkening back to the Babylonian myths of Tiamat and other primordial progenitor figures. That's not really how most people use the term "chaos" in common parlance - chaos is more commonly referred to as complete disorder or confusion, such as the complete absence of order in a given context. You're right about Chaos in its form as primordial or primal chaos (that which predates universal creation itself), but that's not really how it's being used here.

The common use is closer to "not in the order it is supposed to be in", rather than "not ordered at all". It certainly doesn't exclude the possibility of randomly occuring order like Disorder does.

Chaos is greek, though. Interestingly, you could translate it as "Void".

[Aucald]

The common use is closer to "not in the order it is supposed to be in", rather than "not ordered at all". It certainly doesn't exclude the possibility of randomly occuring order like Disorder does.

Chaos is greek, though. Interestingly, you could translate it as "Void".

The mythology of Warcraft actually posits that the Light was the first thing to exist, probably before time or even order itself (as order requires disorder/chaos as a duality to exist). In the places where the Light attenuated it gave rise to the Void, and thus Light and Void were the two primordial forces of cosmogenesis in the Warcraft universe. The other primal forces: Life, Disorder, Order, and Death were born out of the clash of Light and Void energies. They've grown in stature to reside alongside the primordial essences now, but Light and Void remain the progenitors of the universe as a whole.

[Mehrunes]

The common use is closer to "not in the order it is supposed to be in", rather than "not ordered at all". It certainly doesn't exclude the possibility of randomly occuring order like Disorder does.

Chaos is greek, though. Interestingly, you could translate it as "Void".

The definition of chaos, which I'd assume constitutes a common use is "complete disorder and confusion".

[Arrashi]

The definition of chaos, which I'd assume constitutes a common use is "complete disorder and confusion".

So.....warcraft lore ?

[huth]

The definition of chaos, which I'd assume constitutes a common use is "complete disorder and confusion".

Which definition? That's certainly not the mythological or scientific definition.

[Mehrunes]

So.....warcraft lore ?

Pretty much, yeah.

Which definition? That's certainly not the mythological or scientific definition.

The common usage one, as I already mentioned. I'm not sure what a mythological or scientific one matters here, as Warcraft lore is not bound by Greek mythology and scientific definition of it is not only utterly irrelevant here, but also not what you talked about.

[ChairmanKaga]

why does every thread here get like this after a few pages?

[formerShandalay]

So actually, I'm now back at thinking that it was actually the Old Gods (from what Vol'jin says when you click on him in front of Orgrimmar, it sounds like the whispers came from several entities) that made Sylvanas Warchief. Not because she was working for them and they wanted her in power, but because she was scheming in the shadows and they needed her exposed. It fits with her annoyance at the nomination.
With the Burning Legion gone the Old Gods don't have their distraction anymore and they know that the armies of Azeroth can win against them, as they have done it several times before. So what better than to get Sylvanas to expose herself and maybe at some point her scheme and her alliance with Death too?
The Old Gods want the Hour of Twilight, Sylvanas wants the Death of everything, all possibilities. Murozond told us that the Hour of Twilight is a blessing compared to what happens alternatively. So when it became probable that Sylvanas was actually going to achieve her goal, if she continued to work from the shadows and everyone would be taken by surprise by her, they 'killed' Vol'jin and made her Warchief.

[ombramo]

Dragons making a comeback in the lore would make me believe that Wrathion becomes/is the Aspect of Death

[mistmitpandas]

"Death" or literally Death could be the final boss in the next expansion, being Death and the highest entity of the shadow lands.

[Lyssander]

A certain old god who called himself the "God of Death"

That's, like, his opinion, man.