Personal Loot Feedback - Three Raids Later

[Lenis]

While I would agree that a new recruit hasn't worked as hard as the longer standing members of the group, that doesn't mean that they deserve to be treated with absolute contempt.

Because PL allows for trading of items, new recruits are still going to be at a disadvantage when it comes to getting loot because the guild will prioritise the distribution of tradeable gear among its main members.

Honestly, I don't see why you see it is such a massive injustice that a recruit might win some items from PL.

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Then how about demonstrating that by adopting a more mature, constructive attitude when you debate with other people?

As for the content of your rant, it's just that. A rant. You're choosing to rage when it would be far easier to just accept that this is the way things are and work within those constraints instead of fixating on things that, when you actually stop to analyse them, don't make that big of a difference.

You might not see massive injustice or difference but guilds are. That's why guilds are only recruiting when they must (some just rather die), that's why guilds are not taking any friends or family members, that's why guilds are no taking any alts to raids.

[Gasparde]

Then how about demonstrating that by adopting a more mature, constructive attitude when you debate with other people?

As for the content of your rant, it's just that. A rant. You're choosing to rage when it would be far easier to just accept that this is the way things are and work within those constraints instead of fixating on things that, when you actually stop to analyse them, don't make that big of a difference.

There is no debate here. There is me talking about how me and basically everyone I know distaste this change... and then there's the 'opposition' coming in and basically calling our opinions baseless and exaggerated bullshit. There's no debate and no discussion, there's one side stating their opinion and there's another side being blissfully ignorant and oblivious to whatever the first party's got to say.

As for the latter part, and I hate to use the following word... but in lack of a better alternative... how can one be so fucking beta? Oh, something I love and used to do in a certain way for 14 years was randomly changed to now constantly annoy and infuriate me? Better just bitch out and live with it. Because that's what you do when something bad happens... you just live with it instead of trying to fix it.

We are working with the new system. We're leveling and abandoning 4 different professions for patch drops just to get a high enough item level in certain slots so we could trade more loot. We're spamming m+ like mad on mythic release date in hopes of grabbing some tf's just so we can have more control over our loot - you know, the control we used to have in the past. We are actively working on putting in mad hours just to not let this random ass restriction negatively affect our game.

I have yet to see a solid argument in favor of this change to this very day.
If you were in an abusive guild under the old loot system? Fucking leave the guild.
If you found yourself noticing a loot of item locking / reservation under the old system? Just fucking don't join those groups.
If you don't like the new system? Fuck yourself, just stop being a bitch and deal with it, amirite?

You guys' standpoint is basically to prohibit relationships because someone somewhere once was in an abusive relationship and that's clearly bad. So instead of dealing with those cases on an individual basis let's just fucking make it so that no one can ever enter a relationship again.

What is it with this borderline socialist agenda of people wanting to take free choice away from others just because they're too weak-minded to walk away from 'abusive' loot distributing parties / guilds? Why do I have to adapt? I care, you don't seem to. You don't seem to give a flying fuck about loot distribution. Why are your wants taken care of while I have to suffer? You always had the choice to walk away, I don't have a choice, it's ridiculous how unempathetic you guys are about people losing a freedom they always had.

[Trbn]

Uhm, I dont know where you come frome, but at least where I live, you get Paid for the Job you do, no matter if you are on "Probation" or not. And you are paid the same thing that regular workers get.

idc where you live. in wow loot is a tool for progress and progress itself is a salary. you get your salary, but person on a probation shouldn't get the greatest tools when he's not trusted.

and if use your way to interprete things we recieve even shittier situation where someone who worked to put boss on farm and worked for progress getting stolen from his salary by someone who just dps'ed

[LanToaster]

idc where you live. in wow loot is a tool for progress and progress itself is a salary. you get your salary, but person on a probation shouldn't get the greatest tools when he's not trusted.

and if use your way to interprete things we recieve even shittier situation where someone who worked to put boss on farm and worked for progress getting stolen from his salary by someone who just dps'ed

If you dont Care about real life Laws, and Practices, then dont bring them up. If you bring up "Getting a New Job" when Comparing Getting loot in Dungeons, you dont need to wonder that you get told: "Jobs dont work that way"

[Trbn]

If you dont Care about real life Laws, and Practices, then dont bring them up. If you bring up "Getting a New Job" when Comparing Getting loot in Dungeons, you dont need to wonder that you get told: "Jobs dont work that way"

LUL mofo I described two situations why recruit is not eligible for loot and all you could say is this?

get ignored, so I won't waste more time on you

[Raelbo]

You base your arguments on personal anecdotes and made up "facts"

Not true, but whatever.

without any semblance of trying to understand the other side

So why then have I repeatedly asked you, in this thread and in others, to please put explain your point of view? Honestly, I am trying my damndest to "understand" where you people are coming from, but instead of answering with thought out, structured answers, all I tend to get is open hostility, insults and bludgeoning. The failure here is not mine.

Essentially your best argument seems to be that your conclusions are "obvious" and that if people don't "get it" they must be stupid. Sorry but that is not a basis for any kind of discussion. You may not like or agree with my PoV but at least I have given you something to work with.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

It's pretty simple. "Organised" raiding was full of ninja looting. It was that simple. When an item dropped it went to the GM or their friends first. We have already gone through this and it was proven that the majority of players preferred the idea of personal loot over getting ninjaed. All Blizzard did was remove the option of scamming others out of their loot.

If that happened to you, you were raiding with shit-tier players to begin with. I raided with average and above-average players, not once over the course of the five years I raided with them did we ever have an issue with master loot. We used DKP and people not being dipshits over loot (ie. people would pass on gear that was a minor upgrade for them, but a major upgrade for someone else).

The kind of shit you're talking about wasn't common among decent people and players.

[swatsonqt]

For Pugs 10/10 would use again.

For organized group content? oh boi that's a no no

If someone comes up with a fantastic idea how to balance this i'm in but i think that this will be hard.

The only thing coming close would be to let the group decide wether they want ML or not.
But how do you do that?

Do all ppl have to be in a guild? doesn't work
Do all have to be in a community, from the same server?
Or do you give it a rdy-check style method to decide? "Are you grouped content - yes / no"?

Any of these scenarios fail. You might get into the guild/community for the run and then you'll be kicked...gg wp
"if you dont agree to ML you will be kicked" gg wp

So yeah...i would like to have an option in between PL and ML... but i have no idea how that should work

[LanToaster]

For Pugs 10/10 would use again.

For organized group content? oh boi that's a no no

If someone comes up with a fantastic idea how to balance this i'm in but i think that this will be hard.

The only thing coming close would be to let the group decide wether they want ML or not.
But how do you do that?

Do all ppl have to be in a guild? doesn't work
Do all have to be in a community, from the same server?
Or do you give it a rdy-check style method to decide? "Are you grouped content - yes / no"?

Any of these scenarios fail. You might get into the guild/community for the run and then you'll be kicked...gg wp
"if you dont agree to ML you will be kicked" gg wp

So yeah...i would like to have an option in between PL and ML... but i have no idea how that should work

How about having the "LootRules" tied to the Dungeon.

The RaidLead/GroupLead determines the LootRules, a bit more Indepth beforehand, and when entering the Group/Dungeon they need to "Agree" to these Rules.

These Rules could include:
"MasterLoot" - Like before one Person Distributes the loot
"Need/Greed - Roll" - Like Before, everyone who wants the Item Rolls.
"Need/Greed - Upgrade" - Everyone who wants the Item presses Need, and the one with the Lowest Ilvl on that Slots gets the item.
"Bidding/Buying" - Everyone who wants an Item Bids (Gold or a Ressource) on the Item, and the winner pays gold to the others who would have liked the Item. (Split up in relation to how much they would have given)
"Personal Loot" - Like Default personal Loot.

And whatever one could also think up.
With maybe Additional settings, like: "Even distribution", when two peopl want an Item and one already got one, the other gets it.

Edit: Obviously these Rules cannot be Changed mid run.

[Raelbo]

There is no debate here. There is me talking about how me and basically everyone I know distaste this change... and then there's the 'opposition' coming in and basically calling our opinions baseless and exaggerated bullshit.

So do you think I am being dishonest in my opinion? Maybe you need to work on communicating your opinions in a more logical, rational and relatable fashion instead of coming across as a raving lunatic.

Honestly, I don't even have a horse in this race. I play in a heroic guild. We adopted PL as soon as it became an option and haven't looked back since. I get that ML worked well for many other guilds (particularly the more competitive guilds). But I can also see, plain as day, the other side.

Sorry to say this, but the fact that I disagree with you is because you've failed to put together a good argument. And while you'd probably be tempted to say "right back at you", it's actually pretty evident that no argument in the world would ever convince you of what I am saying. And honestly, I don't actually care. My objective here is try to share ideas and thoughts.

As for the latter part, and I hate to use the following word... but in lack of a better alternative... how can one be so fucking beta? Oh, something I love and used to do in a certain way for 14 years was randomly changed to now constantly annoy and infuriate me? Better just bitch out and live with it. Because that's what you do when something bad happens... you just live with it instead of trying to fix it.

Maybe I just don't understand why you're so personally invested in the loot distribution system, or why your enjoyment of the game should be contingent upon it. I love raiding, working on new bosses, progressively improving both gear and fight execution, with my team, until we defeat each boss and eventually the tier. The gear is nice, but how it's distributed just doesn't isn't something worth getting upset about.

The fact is that getting loot has always been affected by an element of luck. The underlying mechanism may have changed, but the final outcome is basically the same.

We are working with the new system. We're leveling and abandoning 4 different professions for patch drops just to get a high enough item level in certain slots so we could trade more loot. We're spamming m+ like mad on mythic release date in hopes of grabbing some tf's just so we can have more control over our loot - you know, the control we used to have in the past. We are actively working on putting in mad hours just to not let this random ass restriction negatively affect our game.

Except it sounds like what you're doing is massively negatively affecting your game experience.

The restriction isn't "random ass". The reasons behind it are pretty obvious. And it's not unfair, or unjust. What it does do is make it harder to funnel loot. What concerns me is that you perceive this need to funnel loot at all. Why? Because that is how you always did it in the past? I am not saying that you can't or shouldn't continue to funnel loot (in order to gain a competitive advantage over other guilds) within the constraints of the new system. What I would say though is that you should keep a sense of perspective. There is zero requirement in this game to do what you're doing in order to try and game the system, so unless you're actually getting some sense satisfaction out of it, then you're doing something terribly wrong (in the sense that you're sabotaging your game experience).

I have yet to see a solid argument in favor of this change to this very day.

All of them have been adequately rebutted:

If you were in an abusive guild under the old loot system? Fucking leave the guild.
If you found yourself noticing a loot of item locking / reservation under the old system? Just fucking don't join those groups.

What if the problem is systemic/widespread? This just creates a massively toxic environment in which players settle for the lesser evil.

If you don't like the new system? Fuck yourself, just stop being a bitch and deal with it, amirite?

That's not exactly how I would have put it, but essentially, for silly, trivial, low impact stuff - yes.

What is it with this borderline socialist agenda of people wanting to take free choice away from others just because they're too weak-minded to walk away from 'abusive' loot distributing parties / guilds? Why do I have to adapt? I care, you don't seem to. You don't seem to give a flying fuck about loot distribution. Why are your wants taken care of while I have to suffer? You always had the choice to walk away, I don't have a choice, it's ridiculous how unempathetic you guys are about people losing a freedom they always had.

This isn't about taking away free choice or losing freedoms. Stop trying to strawman.

[Gasparde]

This isn't about taking away free choice or losing freedoms. Stop trying to strawman.

There's no point in even arguing with you as you seem to be arguing just for the sake of arguing.
My argument is that you are very much in favor of taking away my freedom of choice while your counter 'argument' is that this is totally not the case and how you just can't seem to understand what I'm getting at. There's no winning with people like you because you just don't care about what's being said and are instead just trying to win a 'debate' as if we were in a highschool debaters club.

[Rendark]

If people didn't want it removed, they shoulden't have used it in ways that Blizz thought rude/wrong/bad or downright exploitative.

What like gearing your raid team?

[Xalvia]

There isn't a single valid reason why guilds shouldn't be able to opt in to master loot. Not one reason.

[Raelbo]

My argument is that you are very much in favor of taking away my freedom of choice

No I am not. You're strawmanning. My argument has nothing to do with your "freedom of choice". If your "freedom of choice" was the only issue at stake in this debate then I'd have no problem supporting it. But it isn't. At best, a small hit to your "freedom of choice" is simply collateral damage from a change that is fixing a far more significant problem.

while your counter 'argument' is that this is totally not the case and how you just can't seem to understand what I'm getting at.

Oh I totally understand what you're getting at. What I don't understand is why you seem to believe it's such an important issue.

There's no winning with people like you because you just don't care about what's being said and are instead just trying to win a 'debate' as if we were in a highschool debaters club.

Well you're rich to talk....

Also, as already stated, I don't actually care either way. It's no skin off my back to see ML re-introduced to the game. My "allegience" in this particular debate is with the best argument. Yours, I'm afraid, is woefully lacking, as evidenced, for example, by the fact that you're resorting to strawman and ad hominem.

[rrayy]

The real issue on this topic is not Personal loot vs Master loot. It's Personal loot + Master loot vs Personnal loot alone. Removing a feature that worked perfectly fine to force everyone into another feature that was already available is objectively not a solution to any problem. First of all, there was NO PROBLEM to solve, it was in Blizzard's head. Secondly, if people prefer personnal loot then they could still use it before, or today even if Master loot was still available.

Simply removign options from players, just like pruning everywhere else in the game. Straight up pointless, serves no purpose other than reducing the quality of the game in general.

Master loot did not work perfectly fine, unless you were an abuser that loves to exploit others to gear yourself and your buddies faster.

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Like many people have said, casualisation of the game is killing it.

This nonsense again. The game has ALWAYS been a casual game. Casualization is what made it POPULAR from the start. People need to stop spreading this myth.

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What like gearing your raid team?

Exploiting other players gear yourself faster. Filling your raid with playes you are specifically denying loot for no reason other so you could horde gear for yourself. There was plenty of abuse like that and Blizzard has data to back it up. DOn't try to act like RL's are completely innocent people. Your buddies(and probably you too) abused it,l so it got taken away from you and rightly so.

[rrayy]

Just because it doesnt make sense to you doesnt mean its not true, and I will continue to voice my opinion on what I dislike with the current game wether you like it or not.

Master loot worked perfectly fine unless you had social problems and got into god awful pugs without asking the lootrules.

It's not an opinion when it is absolute myth. The game was casual from day one and was the main selling point.

NO, master loot did not work perfectly fine. The fat that you defend loot abuse and condone it proves it.

[Loveliest]

Raider. I like it, no more loot drama. I only look at the gear I get and the gear people are offering to trade, ignore all the rest. Don't even bother looking at the drops.
As a note, if it makes any difference, I've always been MT so was prioritized for loot before. Even when it didn't make sense, my guildies passed to me (for example, I remember in ICC I had 4-set while others didn't even have 2-set because of this).
But you know what else contributes to me not minding the change? Having M+ and gear from there, so I hardly need gear that drops. Take with a grain of salt.

[Raelbo]

There isn't a single valid reason why guilds shouldn't be able to opt in to master loot. Not one reason.

True that. There are multiple reasons :P

Seriously though, if your assertion was true, then why was it removed in the first place? Unless you're prepared to interrogate those reasons, claiming they're invalid doesn't really hold any water.

Here are the facts: Blizzard had both loot systems running in parallel for several years. They could very easily have kept ML in for guilds. The entire reason that PL was introduced was to reduce loot disputes, the indicator of which was number of tickets they received regarding loot disputes. The fact that they chose to remove ML in spite of the highly vocal objections by specific segment of the community, is a very strong indicator that loot disputes remained an issue within guild groups using ML.

For me, that's pretty much the end of it. I can even sympathise with the fact that some people would have preferred to keep things as they were. But this head-in-the-sand attitude of "there was never any problem" really isn't helpful to your cause (or credibility) at all.

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This is what the ignore function on this forum is for, I should have used it earlier but I think Im going to have to do it now for people like him.

Please do, by all means.

[SkagenRora]

What like gearing your raid team?

I think it was removed mostly to avoid ninja looting.

But maby also to prevent people from doing something called "Split runs"

[callipygoustp]

Can't help but to wonder how many people in this thread, who are against personal loot, are actually in top end guilds where a more free form style of loot distribution makes sense. And by top end guild I mean top 100 500 guilds.