How did blizzard manage to let class/talent design get so bad?

[Naiattavain]

I don't think the content in BFA is bad on a fundamental level, outside of them forgetting to add things back to the game (mat vendors, for example) the primary issue with the game is spec/talent design. Most of the specs in the game just feel bad to play, they just aren't fun. You can blame some of this on the GCD change (which to this day makes no coherent sense to me) but many specs have such little talent diversity you could remove most talents and it wouldn't matter even slightly. There are talents in the game that are so bad, they're a dps loss over taking no talent at all. People will play bad content if the specs are fun to play, but when the specs aren't fun to play then no matter how good your content is people are just going to stop.

I really just don't get the mentality blizzard had going into BFA, they were repeatedly warned by people playing the beta that many specs just felt awful and kept insisting azerite was going to fix it, and that never materialized. And because blizzard doesn't like doing large reworks mid xpac, we're now left with a bunch of specs that likely won't be fixed or fun to play until next expansion, if they're ever fixed at all.

The only solution I can see going forward is to roll back some of the massive redesigns they've done over the years and restore classes to what they used to be, and then tune the numbers. Because when we do lose azerite and essences, we're going to be left in the exact same situation we're in now, specs that feel incomplete and clunky to play.

this is the only problem with retail that blizz overlooked. my opinion is on the money.

[Beefkow]

this is the only problem with retail that blizz overlooked. my opinion is on the money.

BFA is made for shareholders, not the customer.

Blizzard is just a greedy cooperation that will do whatever it takes to add in in-game mounts/pets/cosmetics/etc.

[Dellis0991]

But it's not. By far the #1 complaint people in this game have is spec/talent design. I've never met a high-end raider in this game that thinks spec/class design issues have not been plaguing BFA since day 1.

Talent and spec design in every expansion have always been met with a wide variety of opinions.....to say it isn't means you speak for everyone.

[Super Black Man of Steal]

BFA is made for shareholders, not the customer.

Blizzard is just a greedy cooperation that will do whatever it takes to add in in-game mounts/pets/cosmetics/etc.

None of this makes sense. People have to buy the expansion and play it so they'll stay subscribed. .

[Dellis0991]

I honestly don't get why people have a problem with classes and talents in BFA, but I don't raid beyond LFR.

It's always been this way. You can give a player a one hit kill weapon and they will complain about the look.

[Beefkow]

It's always been this way. You can give a player a one hit kill weapon and they will complain about the look.

I don't mind changes at all.

But when they take stuff away expansion by expansion, it gets old really fast.

[Super Black Man of Steal]

I don't mind changes at all.

But when they take stuff away expansion by expansion, it gets old really fast.

What did they take away?

[Dellis0991]

What did they take away?

That's a big list.....

[Super Black Man of Steal]

That's a big list.....

Give me a top 3.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I'm assuming by references you mean content.

Content doesn't matter to me at all.

Warlords of Draneor is a big example. The main reason subs dropped nearly 50% was because of lack of content, or the general theme of it. It was trash, the selfie cam patch definitely left a mark, afk garrison was just horrible. However, classes were fun to play, multistrike was a fun stat, my character was just fun.

I value my brushes more than the references, if they take all of my brushes away, what do i have?

In this case ya the references would be content. So then it comes down to what are you personally paying for. Are you paying for just the reference(content) or the brushes (classes) or a mix of both.

I personally lean more towards content as the classes I like (hunter pally) got put into a state I didn’t like in cata and are only now recovering even though they still miss a lot.

[asil]

Talent and spec design in every expansion have always been met with a wide variety of opinions.....to say it isn't means you speak for everyone.

Blizzard themselves have admitted they messed up class design in BFA dude. You're completely ignoring the context here, they were told over and over again that specs felt bad on the beta and kept insisting azerite would fix it.

Azerite failed to do so for most specs, the classes are too pruned, there's almost no talent diversity in the game. I've played this game since vanilla and it's hard to claim spec/class design hasn't been getting worse since at least MOP.

[Beefkow]

In this case ya the references would be content. So then it comes down to what are you personally paying for. Are you paying for just the reference(content) or the brushes (classes) or a mix of both.

I personally lean more towards content as the classes I like (hunter pally) got put into a state I didn’t like in cata and are only now recovering even though they still miss a lot.

I pay to play my character.

90% character/10% world/content.

I mean, its an MMORPG. You are role playing as you adventurer through Azeroth, your character is everything.

You level up, you get stronger, you gain more knowledge, more abilities, more powerful. I love progressing and obtaining more things. It was definitely understandable when blizz had to start the pruning process release of WOD, it made sense, too much ability bloat, everybody had everything, and the numbers were too big (according to the game engine or w/e).

I play a tauren warrior and I've always loved the fantasy of being this mammoth sized creature destroying everyone in my wake. I played bfa and it feels like i'm tickling my enemies, my rotation is boring, and it's slow, it's depressing.

[Dellis0991]

Give me a top 3.

Hunters got butchered badly between wrath and Legion, they went from having ranged and melee in specs to losing melee in specs (not all specs) to melee in a one spec.....slots all fucked up throughout the years.

Warlocks had some weird shit happen to them some of it was good then they butchered demonology to make way for demon hunters. Glyph of demon hunting got 86'd...not quite sure if people got real vocal about it but I remember some players raging over warlock specs quite a few times over the expansions.

Shamans got tore the fuck up......enhancement and ele shamans went from hitting hard to hitting like wet noodles.

[wigs mcintyre]

There's certainly some underperforming specs and wonky talents, but it will never be perfect. How could it? How could you realistically balance a game in such a way to please millions of people. I would hardly call the current design bad, but there are improvements to be made.

[Beefkow]

There's certainly some underperforming specs and wonky talents, but it will never be perfect. How could it? How could you realistically balance a game in such a way to please millions of people.

When the ratio is 99% on one and 1% in the other, something is wrong.

But ya, it's understandable that it's not possible to get a perfect balance, can't please everyone.... right?

https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pve...alents/warrior

99.14% carnage/frothing berserker 0.5%/massacare 0.36%.

This was taking to account assuming people only killed 1/8 in mythic raid difficulty. A rough estimate, but you get the point.

[UnluckyAmateur]

I don't think the content in BFA is bad on a fundamental level, outside of them forgetting to add things back to the game (mat vendors, for example) the primary issue with the game is spec/talent design. Most of the specs in the game just feel bad to play, they just aren't fun. You can blame some of this on the GCD change (which to this day makes no coherent sense to me) but many specs have such little talent diversity you could remove most talents and it wouldn't matter even slightly. There are talents in the game that are so bad, they're a dps loss over taking no talent at all. People will play bad content if the specs are fun to play, but when the specs aren't fun to play then no matter how good your content is people are just going to stop.

I really just don't get the mentality blizzard had going into BFA, they were repeatedly warned by people playing the beta that many specs just felt awful and kept insisting azerite was going to fix it, and that never materialized. And because blizzard doesn't like doing large reworks mid xpac, we're now left with a bunch of specs that likely won't be fixed or fun to play until next expansion, if they're ever fixed at all.

The only solution I can see going forward is to roll back some of the massive redesigns they've done over the years and restore classes to what they used to be, and then tune the numbers. Because when we do lose azerite and essences, we're going to be left in the exact same situation we're in now, specs that feel incomplete and clunky to play.

Class Design was always bad

[kaminaris]

Blizzard themselves have admitted they messed up class design in BFA dude. You're completely ignoring the context here, they were told over and over again that specs felt bad on the beta and kept insisting azerite would fix it.

Azerite failed to do so for most specs, the classes are too pruned, there's almost no talent diversity in the game. I've played this game since vanilla and it's hard to claim spec/class design hasn't been getting worse since at least MOP.

No, i suggest o rewatch that video, they never said that.

[Super Black Man of Steal]

Hunters got butchered badly between wrath and Legion, they went from having ranged and melee in specs to losing melee in specs (not all specs) to melee in a one spec.....slots all fucked up throughout the years.

Warlocks had some weird shit happen to them some of it was good then they butchered demonology to make way for demon hunters. Glyph of demon hunting got 86'd...not quite sure if people got real vocal about it but I remember some players raging over warlock specs quite a few times over the expansions.

Shamans got tore the fuck up......enhancement and ele shamans went from hitting hard to hitting like wet noodles.

You're all over the place here.

What was taken away? Are you talking about specific abilities? The only abilities that were taken away from most classes, especially hunters, were those weird abilities people didn't use 99.99% of the time and that weren't even combat abilities. They took some melee abilities away but then later made a whole melee spec.

Warlocks had meta taken away, but for a good reason, and the demonology spec was revamped to be much more interesting in my opinion. Many abilities, especially demon summons added.

I don't get the complaint about shamans. I've played an enhancement shaman since Wrath and it was one of my two mains in BFA and I never had a problem. Even if their damage was a bit too low, which I did not notice, that's a balancing issue. Sometimes certain specs suck. Not everybody can shine all the time.

I played like 9 or 10 out of 12 classes in BFA and I had fun with all of them. Again, I don't really get the complaint. What was taken away in BFA? Sure certain abilities were taken away over the years, some abilities were given to certain specs, some abilities came back etc. That is unavoidable. I don't see Blizzard butchering classes and specs. They are always trying to add, adjust and reinvent classes and specs and especially give every spec its own identity.

[Beefkow]

-Snip-

Artifact weapons were taken away
Tier sets were taken away
legiondaries were taken away.

There's your big 3.

[Super Black Man of Steal]

Artifact weapons were taken away
Tier sets were taken away
legiondaries were taken away.

There's your big 3.

I thought we were talking about class and talent design?

None of these things were taken away. Every artifact weapon, every tier set, every legendary you ever owned, you still own.

Legendaries have their effects disabled upon hitting a certain level. Artifact weapons have their talent trees removed, but that was necessary going forward, and some talents were made baseline, because how else do you wanna do it? You still own the weapons and every transmog you unlocked. Tier sets still exist, just not one for every class, but one for every armor type. I wish they'd go back to class armor sets, and I think they eventually will, but that doesn't mean they took anything away from you.

Do you have any serious argument to make or just this nonsense?