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  1. #41
    Scarab Lord
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    I agree that it could be improved, they should at the very least present drop chances along with jokerbonus chances for sockets and forgings and place them in the dungeon journals loot lists with the rest of the info.
    Last edited by Tiwack; 2019-10-05 at 01:47 AM.
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  2. #42
    Just gonna play devil's advocate for argument's sake and, Honestly, this title reads like some kind of spin-doctored slam article. If every time you entered a raid you were charged real money, and instead of fighting bosses with teamwork, organization, and dedication you were just given a loot-vending slot machine, i'd agree. Otherwise, it doesn't compare to gambling at all. And no your subscription to play an entire game doesn't compare to a microtransaction for lootboxes. There are other places you could bring this up as a legit issue when it comes to Bli$$ard games, like Overwatch or Heroes of the Storm.

    For starters, most gear you get in a raid stops being useful after a content patch or two, and unless you're doing mythic (which is a pretty small "gambling addict" portion of the playerbase that this system's "preying upon" to begin with. It always seemed to me like they were pandering more to the people whining that they don't get any loot since late MoP/early WoD by adding in EZ ways to get loot. i.e. events bonus 5-man loot, loot reroll system, increased odds, better catch-up gear, etc,), it's often replaced by catch-up gear obtainable through quests/rep farming/grinding in the next patch. RNG is a frustrating system if implemented poorly to be sure, but comparing a game's RNG reward system to lootbox gambling is a stretch. RNG is a component of lootbox gambling, yes, but that does not mean a reward system is the same as lootbox gambling because it's RNG-based or has randomized elements. Either way it seems like the people that want to min-max all the way to the end of the expansion are still able to do it just fine. Raising your item level is incredibly easy. Mythic 5-mans aren't difficult, we've got a bounty of upgradeable benthic armor, you can also go out and obtain crafted items, etc. In Legion, everyone and their mother had at least one Legion-dary, many more had multiples littering their bank.

    I think they hit the sweet spot in mid Wrath with the currency system tbh though. Earning enough badges meant you'd get the piece you wanted, or a piece comparable to most decent drops in a raid tier. So long as you actually did the content, you'd end up with a character upgrade eventually. On the other end of the spectrum they could easily go back to late wrath where they had the exact opposite problem: everyone got too many character upgrades regardless of rng. Oversaturated the loot tables with really good gear. Every 5-man boss dropped purples out of their asses, which exhausted the reward system, making the game feel too easy and therefore boring. Didn't help either that at the time, dungeons & raids were also easy numbers-wise too.
    Last edited by Mellrod; 2019-10-04 at 06:38 AM.
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  3. #43
    Please wait Temp name's Avatar
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    Okay, so where do I pay for extra loot with real money? Oh, I can't, you say?

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazuli View Post
    Okay, let's say I want a weapon with crit/haste and let's say I want a socket on that as well. First, I find boss that drops that weapon. Then I kill said boss, let's say it drops. Its a normal version with mast/vers and no socket.
    Not how current or past loot system has ever worked. I can't even say nice try when you didn't even try. The fake leaks put in more effort than you.
    Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

  5. #45
    First of al: Gear is not random.
    When a boss drops a mail chest with crit/haste, it will ALWAYS have crit/haste with the BONUS chance for something like leech or a socket (which shouldn't be random imo, but that's another topic). You know exactly which bosses can drop what and what stats they have.

    Second: You don't pay for bosses/bosskills/however you wanna phrase it.
    You pay to access the game/servers and get mechanics that are used in basically 99% of all RPGs that ever existed in terms of stats or loot that is NOT "unethical". It can be frustrating if you kill boss X for item Y, but you can repeat it in certain intervalls without any charge.

    Is Stardew Valley mines "unethical rng" because when i mine a node it only CAN contain a gem? Is Monster Hunter full of "lootboxes" (the kind that isn't fighting back) because you only have a CHANCE to get that Rathalos Fang for your armor? No, they're just completely normal gameplay loops, made to keep the player engaged, because getting everything immediately is fucking boring

    This is just you crying because boss x didn't drop what you wanted and made up some bullshit clickbait thread which i now fed.

  6. #46
    Wrong place bud this place is infested with wow/gambling addicts, any concern will be considered an attack against them.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by NabyBro View Post
    Reforging was a very deep system that required 300 iq decisions.

    It was like this:
    Am I at hit cap? No? Reforge some stats to hit.
    Am I at hit cap now? Yes? Good.

    GG ez.
    Huh...No?

    Then you reforged everything to your best secondary stats. It was good cause it grabbed a piece of gear you would've trashed and allows you to make it better. I don't think it was a bad system, but it was simply a band aid to the randomness problem.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, is it me or are many people not picking up on the fact he means benthic gear when talking about random stats. Is everyone also forgetting about the random tertiary stat? Lots of knee jerking going around on this thread.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    how so? if you have a good item with not so good or crap status you could take it and change to another to be more useful for you

    it was ok as far i can see.
    Because Blizzard had to create and balance a game around items with shit stats and the various ways players could reforge to help their class/spec the best. Considering they got rid of it, it probably wasn't working for them.

  9. #49
    OP doesn't realize that everything like this has been based off the roll of a dice since forever.

  10. #50
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinyc View Post
    Because Blizzard had to create and balance a game around items with shit stats and the various ways players could reforge to help their class/spec the best. Considering they got rid of it, it probably wasn't working for them.
    or because it was working to well, and its better if we spend more time getting the desired itens instead of reforging one bad

  11. #51
    The thing that makes RNG lootboxes unethical is the ability to use real money on them to create the associated neural pathways corresponding with the adrenaline of gambling and thus potential for addiction.
    Last edited by Vakir; 2019-10-05 at 03:07 AM.

  12. #52
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazuli View Post
    The loot system in retail is now no different than predatory loot box gambling.

    Want to aim for a piece of gear?
    Okay, let's say I want a weapon with crit/haste and let's say I want a socket on that as well.

    First, I find boss that drops that weapon. Then I kill said boss, let's say it drops. Its a normal version with mast/vers and no socket. K? How many times would I have to kill this boss in order to get my desired weapon? Let's even take the socket out of the equation, how many random rolls on avg would it take to get desired stats? No one really fucking knows because this shit is lootbox cancer.

    DON'T FORGET, THIS WEAPON WOULD HAVE TO DROP IN THE FIRST PLACE!

    Even accepting the lootbox aids design, ever wondered why Bli$$ard won't add reforging back so we can control bad stat rolls? Because they want to remain predatory towards weak minded gambler personalities and hope they remain subbed chasing that impossible perfect rolled item.
    Except it isn't? Gear has always been random and you don't pay extra money just to get access to said gear...you don't fork out 20 dollars and suddenly have more chances to obtain said gear in a run.

  13. #53
    Yet, you don't have to pay for an attempt at the boss

  14. #54
    Stood in the Fire Wylyth1992's Avatar
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    Except for the fact that you don't pay real money for looting RNG. So not the same at all.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    Huh...No?

    Then you reforged everything to your best secondary stats. It was good cause it grabbed a piece of gear you would've trashed and allows you to make it better. I don't think it was a bad system, but it was simply a band aid to the randomness problem.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, is it me or are many people not picking up on the fact he means benthic gear when talking about random stats. Is everyone also forgetting about the random tertiary stat? Lots of knee jerking going around on this thread.
    Reforging was a bullshit system. It had zero decision making involved. It was like old talent having the +1/2/3/4/5% dmg stuff: basically automatic and bad design.

    Benthic gear doesn't have random stats either. Each piece has a fixed stat distribution.

    What people complain about does not exist.

  16. #56
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazuli View Post
    The loot system in retail is now no different than predatory loot box gambling.

    Want to aim for a piece of gear?
    Okay, let's say I want a weapon with crit/haste and let's say I want a socket on that as well.

    First, I find boss that drops that weapon. Then I kill said boss, let's say it drops. Its a normal version with mast/vers and no socket. K? How many times would I have to kill this boss in order to get my desired weapon? Let's even take the socket out of the equation, how many random rolls on avg would it take to get desired stats? No one really fucking knows because this shit is lootbox cancer.

    DON'T FORGET, THIS WEAPON WOULD HAVE TO DROP IN THE FIRST PLACE!

    Even accepting the lootbox aids design, ever wondered why Bli$$ard won't add reforging back so we can control bad stat rolls? Because they want to remain predatory towards weak minded gambler personalities and hope they remain subbed chasing that impossible perfect rolled item.
    except that there is one HUGE difference between RNG loot in WoW and RNG lootboxes in other games. and that is that you don't pay anything extra to get RNG loot. yes, it is random but you pay a sub which covers the cost of everything - not just loot - so it is entirely different to lootboxes

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