How did blizzard manage to let class/talent design get so bad?

[La]

I thought we were talking about class and talent design?

None of these things were taken away. Every artifact weapon, every tier set, every legendary you ever owned, you still own.

Legendaries have their effects disabled upon hitting a certain level. Artifact weapons have their talent trees removed, but that was necessary going forward, and some talents were made baseline, because how else do you wanna do it? You still own the weapons and every transmog you unlocked. Tier sets still exist, just not one for every class, but one for every armor type. I wish they'd go back to class armor sets, and I think they eventually will, but that doesn't mean they took anything away from you.

Do you have any serious argument to make or just this nonsense?

Class design is amazing according to an alt master. Ion, is that you?

[Dellis0991]

You're all over the place here.

What was taken away? Are you talking about specific abilities? The only abilities that were taken away from most classes, especially hunters, were those weird abilities people didn't use 99.99% of the time and that weren't even combat abilities. They took some melee abilities away but then later made a whole melee spec.

Warlocks had meta taken away, but for a good reason, and the demonology spec was revamped to be much more interesting in my opinion. Many abilities, especially demon summons added.

I don't get the complaint about shamans. I've played an enhancement shaman since Wrath and it was one of my two mains in BFA and I never had a problem. Even if their damage was a bit too low, which I did not notice, that's a balancing issue. Sometimes certain specs suck. Not everybody can shine all the time.

I played like 9 or 10 out of 12 classes in BFA and I had fun with all of them. Again, I don't really get the complaint. What was taken away in BFA? Sure certain abilities were taken away over the years, some abilities were given to certain specs, some abilities came back etc. That is unavoidable. I don't see Blizzard butchering classes and specs. They are always trying to add, adjust and reinvent classes and specs and especially give every spec its own identity.

I was one of those weird people who kinda like those weird abilities lol but at the same time I love that they reduced the ridiculous button bloat of many classes.

[Beefkow]

Do you have any serious argument to make or just this nonsense?

All of those item effects affected your character greatly.

By greatly, I mean't fixed your class.

Now that they are gone, classes are a hallow shell of its former glory.

Yes in reality they do still exist, but the effects are long gone. You can transmog your character with artifact weapons, woooow, I love fashion!

Baseline spells were either removed or put into talents, How is that fun? How is that progression? How can you possibly think that's a good idea?

You really think this is nonsense? Look again, and look harder, think from another person's prospective and not yours.

[asil]

No, i suggest o rewatch that video, they never said that.

This is a level of delusion I didn't even think was possible. They literally had to apply a bandaid fix in the form of essences mid xpac dude.

[Drusin]

I like every spec ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Jastall]

The biggest mistake was introducing so many systems and abilities in Legion and then just removing them. In one stroke we lost our NLC effects (manageable) but also the activated Artifact ability, powerful Legendary effects and the variety of traits that came with it, some of which could be quite powerful and flavorful (like the Vampiric effect in BDK's ability). The only replacement we got at all was Azerite traits, some of which are interesting but overall they offer only a bit more than the Legendaries did if that, and just weren't enough. Essences helped a bit, but weren't class-specific.

I like BfA's Warrior and Warlock, but everything else feels worse than in Legion, and because of WoD's own pruning most of these feel worse than MoP's as well. I pretty much only play my Warrior in BFA while I had an active alt stable in Legion and Mists.

IMO next xpack Blizzard should return most of not all Legion activated abilities, add a talent row at 125 partially based on Legendaries, and carry on the Essence system at max level in a class (not spec)-specific way. That seems a good blueprint to me.

[Teaklog]

Everyone who says this is being willfully ignorant, since Blizzard gave their reasoning for the change and it makes perfect sense.

When you encounter a situation where there are two (or more) possible solutions, they want you to choose one or the other. If one or both of the solution spells are off GCD, making any choice is the wrong choice. The correct play is to cast both.

As a personal example, I was literally the world number paladin for self healing on several fights in Legion. You want to know how I accomplished that? I wrote a 130 character macro that automatically cast Light of the Protector on my target if it was friendly, on myself if my target was unfriendly and had no target, and my target's target if the target was unfriendly and his target was friendly, then I added that line to every button in my rotation. Doing the spell on cooldown without checking whether or not it was necessary objective outperformed literally every human in the world.

So many spells being off the GCD was bad. It was very exploitable and forced complex macros to be used.

Yeah, except when my healing cooldowns are on the global cooldown..i have to plan ahead before i use a healing cooldown. and in PvP if I'm planning ahead to use a healing cooldown, i have enough time not to use it at all. So the end result is I end up not using my cooldowns because the extra global isn't worth 20% extra healing or what have you because someone will die in the next global or two.

It leads to a much more offensive strategy where I preemptively use my cooldowns so we can focus on offense

[rohoz]

this thread is half people yelling "REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE I CANT RAPTOR STRIKE/WING CLIP EVEN THOUGH THERES NO DEADZONE ANYMORE REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"
and "REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE ARTIFACT ABILITIES REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"

Classic mmo-champ tbh

[Relapses]

this thread is half people yelling "REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE I CANT RAPTOR STRIKE/WING CLIP EVEN THOUGH THERES NO DEADZONE ANYMORE REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"
and "REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE ARTIFACT ABILITIES REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"

Classic mmo-champ tbh

Yeah, look at all these idiots discussing shit... on a discussion forum. Really butters my biscuits. Grinds my gears. Rustles the ol proverbial jimmies.

...

Real high level observation there, bro.

[Ald]

The quest for the all-mighty balance is the problem.

Players need to accept that some classes/specs are better than others for certain aspects and Blizzard needs to build content and encounters around that. Neither really seem to want to do that so here we are.

[rohoz]

Yeah, look at all these idiots discussing shit... on a discussion forum. Really butters my biscuits. Grinds my gears. Rustle the ol proverbial jimmies.

...

Real high level observation there, bro.

I said yelling and you turned it into "discussing"

Rofl, there are people literally unable to discuss because they lack the ability to process information. I said what i said, you *attempted* to change it to something you can jerk off of or whatever.

Anyway, I reiterate. Full of loud knownothings just screaming into the void about things that they don't understand. That's not a discussion, that's a trump rally

[Beefkow]

I said yelling and you turned it into "discussing"

Rofl, there are people literally unable to discuss because they lack the ability to process information. I said what i said, you *attempted* to change it to something you can jerk off of or whatever.

Anyway, I reiterate. Full of loud knownothings just screaming into the void about things that they don't understand. That's not a discussion, that's a trump rally

If you have nothing to contribute by being a smartass and looking down on others that lack knowledge or common sense or the ability to comprehend , please show yourself out the door.

[muto]

A lot of what you say is subjective opinion.

No it’s not. Affliction has only one dps talent row with choice WA/AC/SL and Shadow only has two TF/Misery/DV, and AS/SC. Talent choices are very poorly balanced.

[rohoz]

If you have nothing to contribute by being a smartass and looking down on others that lack knowledge or common sense or the ability to comprehend , please show yourself out the door.

You figure out what spells even scale with weapon damage yet or you still dunno anything you're arguing about?

Hint: google is free.

[Beefkow]

You figure out what spells even scale with weapon damage yet or you still dunno anything you're arguing about?

Hint: google is free.

Nobody cares, move on.

[Spotnick]

It started the day they made specialization for classes. It went to the extreme when they started to remove spell access between specializations..

So instead of being "a mage", you became a "frost mage" or "fire mage", and to insult us, we had to press a button to became the other kind of mage.. which makes no sense RPG wise.

Then they started removing stuff you use all your life, like consecration for retribution paladins, or auras, stuff that you always used on your class and had zero reason to remove... why did paladins for instance lost Crusader Aura? Why did Balance druids lost Hurricane?

Removing stuff is NEVER a good thing, you can replace it by something better like a 60% mount becomes a 100% mount, but removing your class identity is never a good thing... another example for me what to put Holy Power for paladins when we were using mana forever which lead to stupid things as putting spells you could use anything like Divine Storm being a finisher and suddenly you couldn't use it to kill every mob easily when doing low level raids...

Or worst, they remove spells and put them as talents, I remember when rogues suddenly had a spell they always used as their top level talent...

Makes you feel sometimes they don't play their game. Sometimes they revered those changes, like for DK when they tried to remove Army of the Dead for 2 out of 3 specs.

This is why I preferred the old system with the full talent tree where you could pick and chose from the 3 trees. Of course there were cookie cutters, but you had 2 other custom specs you could build to do hybrid builds or pvp specs. Swapping specs in middle of the raid because "fire is better for that boss" is ridiculous... that's lazy class design that this ever happened...

[thunterman]

There's a few iffy specs, but overall, most of them are as good as ever IMO. Lots of variety, they mostly feel fluid, which IMO is the best case scenario. As bad as the GCD change feels, it was necessary. 1 shot macros should never be a thing, and when you can pop a trinket and 2-4 cooldowns in one click, that's possible.

[Darkguyver2020]

A lot of people who hate the class design in BFA also think the classes in Classic are perfect. So what the fuck do they know?

[kaminaris]

This is a level of delusion I didn't even think was possible. They literally had to apply a bandaid fix in the form of essences mid xpac dude.

Yes your level of delusion. They said they taken away many vanity spells like alter time, warrior stances. Nothing grand. And nothing grand will happen to classes. They will probably allow to cast off-spec spells even if they are waste of dps. That is about it. It's not going to revamp classes. Watch that video again.

[4justice]

bfa is the worst xp ever in terms of class design and mechanics... wow has never been so close to lol as bfa is, next xp is the last chance of blizzard