How did blizzard manage to let class/talent design get so bad?

[Zyky]

You can still get there with sub-optimal talents so long as they're balanced within reason.

But the reality is, no one does and there are people who try. Every once in a RARE while you see one or two outliers, but that doesn't make those talents as good as the optimal talents.

[4justice]

Every expansion so far was "a last Blizzard chance"

everything has an end , trust me, wod was even better than bfa, i dont think ppl will give anymore credit to blizzard if wow stays as a "world of lolcraft"

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I've got nothing left to say to you. The facts are there, there's a reason "tens of thousands" use optimal talents and why you never see people using sub-optimal talents in to top 90% percentile.

I’ve given you multiple examples of talent that fit into the rotation as well as a guide for when said talents are a better choice and even a quote from the maker of the guide on how the guide is made/works. You have done nothing but put your fingers in your ears to any thing that doesn’t agree with you.

I agree there is nothing left to say.

[Mrbleedinggums]

But the reality is, no one does and there are people who try. Every once in a RARE while you see one or two outliers, but that doesn't make those talents as good as the optimal talents.

True, that's a fair argument to make! I mean hell, I'd pick the most efficient or less-punishing talent too.

[arkanon]

you want someone to link your fifteen favourite specs out of thirty-six specs.

fifteen.

aite

When someone makes a silly claim like "MOST of the specs are better than ever" I would like some further discussion on the subject, because it's an impressive claim to make; playing most if not all the specs in the game at a high enough level, for long enough, to form the opinion that most specs in the game are the best they have ever been. This also suggests they played all specs every expansion since launch, an impressive feat!

Or, it's just an idiotic comment on par with "everything is fine"

I get it though, you come here for drama and arguments, and jump on every opportunity to cause some problems - even interjecting into a discussion between two people to try and get something going.

[rohoz]

When someone makes a silly claim like "MOST of the specs are better than ever" I would like some further discussion on the subject, because it's an impressive claim to make; playing most if not all the specs in the game at a high enough level, for long enough, to form the opinion that most specs in the game are the best they have ever been. This also suggests they played all specs every expansion since launch, an impressive feat!

Or, it's just an idiotic comment on par with "everything is fine"

I get it though, you come here for drama and arguments, and jump on every opportunity to cause some problems - even interjecting into a discussion between two people to try and get something going.

Nah, your demands are highkey dumb and that's pretty much what you do, as a person. I'm just here to laugh at them

[Zyky]

I’ve given you multiple examples of talent that fit into the rotation as well as a guide for when said talents are a better choice and even a quote from the maker of the guide on how the guide is made/works. You have done nothing but put your fingers in your ears to any thing that doesn’t agree with you.

I agree there is nothing left to say.

But you haven't the only argument that has any place is Murder of Crows, which I agreed on.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

But you haven't the only argument that has any place is Murder of Crows, which I agreed on.

The quotes are right there for you to read, this is just more of you putting your fingers in your ears and gong LA LA LA.

[Beefkow]

You've been losing arguments all over this post, so no, the delusion is your own. Someone in here (was that you?) tried to argue legendaries weren't taken away because you could still put them on.

That is some of the most insane mental gymnastics I've ever seen anyone deploy and reveals how deranged Blizzard fanboys are.

I tried reasoning with that kid, but he just blows everything out of proportion and comes up with some BS comeback, I'm telling you man, he's a trip.

- - - Updated - - -

I’ve given you multiple examples of talent that fit into the rotation

Lol, some of those talents used to be baseline.

*cough* Shadow Word: Death *cough*

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Lol, some of those talents used to be baseline.

*cough* Shadow Word: Death *cough*

That’s not really the point at the moment though it is valid criticism and they should really stop doing it.

[Zyky]

The quotes are right there for you to read, this is just more of you putting your fingers in your ears and gong LA LA LA.

It really isn't you're trying to make a quote from a website that has, historically been false with their data representation and their claiming that logs(aka real talents in real practice) aren't accurate. Every single talent you listed, outside of Murder of Crows(for BM EXCLUSIVELY), is never used and should never be used if you care about optimizing your character or if you care about mythic raiding to ANY degree. The logs are there to prove it, you just insist on going off a website that gives bad information and always has.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

It really isn't you're trying to make a quote from a website that has, historically been false with their data representation and their claiming that logs(aka real talents in real practice) aren't accurate. Every single talent you listed, outside of Murder of Crows(for BM EXCLUSIVELY), is never used and should never be used if you care about optimizing your character or if you care about mythic raiding to ANY degree. The logs are there to prove it, you just insist on going off a website that gives bad information and always has.

I mean it should be quite easy to show that Azortharion is talking out of his ass you could even pm them on here, yet you have posted nothing. serpent sting is said to be an option yet it is not recommend due to easy of use, you haven't posted any thing to show this to be untrue. explosive shot is listed as an option for mythic+ or other places where you'd wan't the aoe, you haven't posted any thing to show this to be untrue. hunter's mark is said to be the go to option, you have posted nothing to show this to be untrue.

If you wan't to take issue with the validity of the guide here's the thread on here about it.
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...le-for-Azeroth

[mario710]

But it's not. By far the #1 complaint people in this game have is spec/talent design. I've never met a high-end raider in this game that thinks spec/class design issues have not been plaguing BFA since day 1.

Anecdotes aren't facts.

[Zyky]

I mean it should be quite easy to show that Azortharion is talking out of his ass you could even pm them on here, yet you have posted nothing. serpent sting is said to be an option yet it is not recommend due to easy of use, you haven't posted any thing to show this to be untrue. explosive shot is listed as an option for mythic+ or other places where you'd wan't the aoe, you haven't posted any thing to show this to be untrue. hunter's mark is said to be the go to option, you have posted nothing to show this to be untrue.

If you wan't to take issue with the validity of the guide here's the thread on here about it.
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...le-for-Azeroth

I already told you where to look, but I'll repeat it again: go look at the logs, the logs prove he's talking out of his ass.

[Moggie]

Started in WoD and self righteous devs never listening.

[GMZohar1]

If your criteria of "is the same" equals to "having buttons" then yes, all specs are the same. Otherwise no, they are not.

This whole argument "classes are the same" is stupid beyond imagination because:
1. "generators and spenders" - people seems to forget every class had mana so at least we have something different now:
a. mana based specs - healers
b. generator & spender - dps/tank
c. proc based specs - dps

2. There is no clear borderline what "feels the same" means.
a. Some people say its about having unique utilities that no other classes have, like warlock wardrobe.
b. Some people say its about having distinctive playstyle. But again, there is no explanation what "distinctive" means.
c. Having 36 specs to choose from is bound to have some similarities, yet some people prefer one class over the other because that small details actually matters.

May have all had mana but at least they had a variety of spells/abilities to choose from and used how you wanted. Now all classes are "you can't use this until you use this". This whole argument "classes are the same" is very real.

[kaminaris]

May have all had mana but at least they had a variety of spells/abilities to choose from and used how you wanted. Now all classes are "you can't use this until you use this". This whole argument "classes are the same" is very real.

Not it really isn't. Don't shift goalpost. People are complaining we have generator&spender specs. While we all had mana before.
We had a lot of useless spells and only couple were useful because of that.

[Ashliorion]

Not it really isn't. Don't shift goalpost. People are complaining we have generator&spender specs. While we all had mana before.
We had a lot of useless spells and only couple were useful because of that.

Yes it really is. I feel no difference in playing my WW Monk, DH, Rogue, DK.. It's sad, back in the day every class was different, to deny this is sad lol

[kaminaris]

Yes it really is. I feel no difference in playing my WW Monk, DH, Rogue, DK.. It's sad, back in the day every class was different, to deny this is sad lol

Then you couldn't feel even more back then. Just spamming 2 buttons, every spec is the same spec.

[swatsonqt]

PvP and world content is where the customization is used.

That is the sad reality, PvE is too linear for customization to be useful.

"But world content doesn't matter, these people can still do their content regardless of the talents"

And in instanced pvp you will most likely still have the cookie cutter?

- - - Updated - - -

It doesn't matter how many adds there are, DS is worthless.

- - - Updated - - -



Except there will be more options still, you won't play deathbolt on every encounter type invariably. So no, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Like blizzard fanboys that show up defend them from literally anything make these forums just... bad. I remember getting in an argument on here once where a guy tried to tell me shadowbolt was the pinnacle of game design and he unironically meant that.

Just insane.

hm..so you're telling me that you don't choose the one talent in every situation which basically means that there is diversity in talent choice but you still want to argue that there are no choices and the talent system is shit because there are no choices to make?

just insane.