Why flying being gated behind rep grind makes no sense

[Shakana]

I'm not entirely sure you read what I wrote. I'm asking on the hypothetical, if Blizzard were to do Classic+ as it's own server separate from Classic, should flying be included in that design? This isn't BfA versus Classic, nor is it me implying that flying should be added to Classic. I wouldn't want to change Classic from what it is now.

I know i know, don't feel attacked please. <3 Really not being a jerk, i read it, but this will make people answer and start the fight of classic vs retail around it.And i said that they will not for sure add it, classic just came because people wanted all this new things from retail gone to the original point of the game.

[Lochton]

People had to earn the gold to pay for it. Now they just make you earn it for longer because it buffs their investor stats.

Because gold is too easy, too weak a demand and by my opinion, not as rewarding. At least Pathfinder gives for the whole account, as well as (my statement says) the first part you can't avoid completing if you do the game, which is why Blizzard should stop at part 1.

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i agree, pathfinder is a good thing, but imo it should be made harder and available at launch, not a year after the expac has launched

Indeed, hence I say it should only be a 1 part thing but with the rest of the demands as needed.

[Revamp Man]

Becuase you are meant to earn it. Pathfinder is okay, have people get the basics of the expansion but not in multiple parts. Making things take a little more than just pay gold over also means chance of more money on the business side of it all.

I want them to design stuff with flying in mind

Have a quest line that requires you to train your mounts to fly to reach a zone

[MasterOfNone]

No it really isn't. Stealth users can literally wade through everything that makes questing 'hard' and walk right back out. That is one of the reasons given by Devs for the removal/set back of obtaining flight. Making current content a joke.

He makes a good point about it being part of their toolkit, but I think you are right in the point that stealthing does make content faster and trivial by comparison to other classes. It was a stupid reason for the devs to say it then, and it still is.

[MasterOfNone]

If that was the case flying wouldn't have helped you. Your problem is with the game itself as a whole, not a single system.

Maybe not helped this particular case but flying does help reduce the burnout immensely. I find zones way more enjoyable if I’m able to travel it with what works for me and my goals and not what blizzard thinks is best for me

[Shelly]

Maybe not helped this particular case but flying does help reduce the burnout immensely. I find zones way more enjoyable if I’m able to travel it with what works for me and my goals and not what blizzard thinks is best for me

I'm not denying the benefits of flight. To me the best part of flight is that it gives me a pause button. Wife or kid wants something, I can just zip up into the air for 5 minutes, easy.

However this isn't about the benefits of flight, it's about whether or not pathfinder is a justified method of gaining flight.

To me it is, all the ways of earning flight or faster travel have all been grinds - as in things to keep you playing longer. Whether it be farming up gold or now farming reputation.

Every last one of the benefits of flight comes with the large downside of removing engagement from the game.

You don't see the same little things.

You have zero danger/grind trying to get around a bunch of jerks to get the boss on a kill quest or to find that treasure chest or that gathering node.

The main benefit of flight is also the biggest problem, it makes the game easier and the world becomes smaller.

I have found Pathfinder and flight whistles to be the happy medium that I can accept.

I can understand why folks disagree with them and want pure flight, but there's a price to every convenience.

[Selah]

Definitely out of place here IMHO it should be (and is being) discussed in the Classic subforums

Opinions change ofc and the crowd playing today is not necessarily the same as in 2005. And even we who still play, have changed. I won't lie, I loved flying when it was introduced in TBC and many did. In fact so many, that there constantly was the plea to be able to fly in Azeroth. But ofc the game was modelled without flying in mind and Blizzard sank all those resources into re-making Azeroth for Cataclysm

So whatever votes you would now get in a poll (which you could actually go and make) - From TBC to Cata flying was apparently very much loved.

That's fair, I'd agree that this probably isn't the thread for it.

I know i know, don't feel attacked please. <3 Really not being a jerk, i read it, but this will make people answer and start the fight of classic vs retail around it.And i said that they will not for sure add it, classic just came because people wanted all this new things from retail gone to the original point of the game.

No problem, I understand. I can see how it'd set off an argument. That's why I set up the premise of it being it's own game separate from Classic and BfA, I'll work on my wording and see if I can find a way to better navigate the question without unintentionally setting people up for an argument.

[schwank05]

Because the Blizzard Devs have got this notion into their heads that flying is a cancer to the game and that really, even if think we want flying, we'll enjoy the game more if we don't get flying. Sadly a loud vocal minority agreed with them which simply validated their delusion.

I guess we should be thankful we even get flying at all.

But we don't I have not had flying since MOP. And honestly I hate it and its one of the reasons I play a character to max level each xpac and then unsub like 3 weeks in because it just blows. Cata had it perfect IMO letting you fly at 82 and allowing you to use it for the leveling.

[Shakana]

That's fair, I'd agree that this probably isn't the thread for it.

No problem, I understand. I can see how it'd set off an argument. That's why I set up the premise of it being it's own game separate from Classic and BfA, I'll work on my wording and see if I can find a way to better navigate the question without unintentionally setting people up for an argument.

Maybe on classic section that would be more welcome. quite didn't want to offend you in anyway, you seem mature and down to earth, there's nothing to point out bad. Just wrong discussion at wrong post

[Tharkkun]

The hardcore no-lifed it in a record time anyway, so gating didn't stop them from zooming through it. The losers are the casuals who support this game, yet they get treated with repetitive boring chores every day leaving them no time to really enjoy the game. It makes absolutely no sense.

I quit several times and even when I reactivated, I played once, or twice max per week, no longer than 1 hour a day and couldn't stand looking at the same zone anymore.

Who thought of this anyway? What's wrong with simply just not giving flying to anyone until a certain time has passed rather than make people hate your own game. This is beyond ridiculous.

Then flying will be an excellent achievement once you've unlocked it. It takes 2 weeks "if" you complete all the quests/dailies every day. 2 weeks. If you do a few days a week it might take a month. It's obvious you either don't enjoy the game or don't want to put any effort into it. That's fine, it's not for everyone.

[MasterOfNone]

I'm not denying the benefits of flight. To me the best part of flight is that it gives me a pause button. Wife or kid wants something, I can just zip up into the air for 5 minutes, easy.

However this isn't about the benefits of flight, it's about whether or not pathfinder is a justified method of gaining flight.

To me it is, all the ways of earning flight or faster travel have all been grinds - as in things to keep you playing longer. Whether it be farming up gold or now farming reputation.

Every last one of the benefits of flight comes with the large downside of removing engagement from the game.

You don't see the same little things.

You have zero danger/grind trying to get around a bunch of jerks to get the boss on a kill quest or to find that treasure chest or that gathering node.

The main benefit of flight is also the biggest problem, it makes the game easier and the world becomes smaller.

I have found Pathfinder and flight whistles to be the happy medium that I can accept.

I can understand why folks disagree with them and want pure flight, but there's a price to every convenience.

Right! I don’t disagree with the concept of earning flight. I disagree with the requirements there in. Pathfinder happens way too late and is pointlessly grindy. Having a consumer base that is burned out by the time you release it hardly seems smart as a business decision. Also, engaging in trivial mobs is hardly something that is game defining. Fighting against a few mobs while leveling I get, but I seriously doubt you will convince anyone here that because flying takes away that pointless engagement that the game becomes “worse”. How challenging are the same mobs over and over again, especially in raid gear? It’s not engaging it’s annoying and a time sink. Flying doesn’t break the game anymore than what each individual consumer gets from it. Several others have posted things like stealth arguments, and they have valid points. There is no reason to say flight takes away from engagement or immersion any more than a rogue that can stealth through most of it anyway.

[Shelly]

Right! I don’t disagree with the concept of earning flight. I disagree with the requirements there in. Pathfinder happens way too late and is pointlessly grindy. Having a consumer base that is burned out by the time you release it hardly seems smart as a business decision. Also, engaging in trivial mobs is hardly something that is game defining. Fighting against a few mobs while leveling I get, but I seriously doubt you will convince anyone here that because flying takes away that pointless engagement that the game becomes “worse”. How challenging are the same mobs over and over again, especially in raid gear? It’s not engaging it’s annoying and a time sink. Flying doesn’t break the game anymore than what each individual consumer gets from it. Several others have posted things like stealth arguments, and they have valid points. There is no reason to say flight takes away from engagement or immersion any more than a rogue that can stealth through most of it anyway.

Claiming stealth as an argument for flight is just silly. One is a class feature which could drive people to play a specific character or class, the other is a game feature.

I can totally agree that it should come sooner, like around the first major patch cycle as everyone hits even just LFR gear and the world becomes trivialized by just overall DPS.

And I can say that in Cataclysm when I had flight right away that I had to do more suspension of disbelief for specific events - opening Uldum, fighting dragons in the Highlands, etc - and that I explored FAR FAR less than now when I have to go around on foot.

Pathfinder is - to me at least - the happy medium and Flight Whistle is bridge until I have access to flight. Plus if you know the map well the whistle becomes a nice shortcut.

I can also say that I explored the shit out of Naz and Mech while earning up the rep to get flight.

Pathfinder II was released at the exact moment the expansion really needed it and where it could make the most sense. We're now on the back end, 8.3 looks like it won't have a ton of new stuff to explore and flight is being put out to the benefit of those that like to do the stuff where flight helps the most - world quests.

[Lochton]

I want them to design stuff with flying in mind

Have a quest line that requires you to train your mounts to fly to reach a zone

I like it being the luxury, the reward, part of the goal. Flight is just a cheat-pass for zones like Nazjatar.

[MasterOfNone]

Claiming stealth as an argument for flight is just silly. One is a class feature which could drive people to play a specific character or class, the other is a game feature.

I can totally agree that it should come sooner, like around the first major patch cycle as everyone hits even just LFR gear and the world becomes trivialized by just overall DPS.

And I can say that in Cataclysm when I had flight right away that I had to do more suspension of disbelief for specific events - opening Uldum, fighting dragons in the Highlands, etc - and that I explored FAR FAR less than now when I have to go around on foot.

Pathfinder is - to me at least - the happy medium and Flight Whistle is bridge until I have access to flight. Plus if you know the map well the whistle becomes a nice shortcut.

I can also say that I explored the shit out of Naz and Mech while earning up the rep to get flight.

Pathfinder II was released at the exact moment the expansion really needed it and where it could make the most sense. We're now on the back end, 8.3 looks like it won't have a ton of new stuff to explore and flight is being put out to the benefit of those that like to do the stuff where flight helps the most - world quests.

For start, the stealth argument is not made to be an argument for flying. The stealth argument is to combat one of many blizzard dev and anti-flyer points. Their point is that world mobs are trivial with flying. If taking away flying makes it more relevant, then stealth classes are still able to make that exposure “trivial”. It’s hard to stand on a point like that when you have a whole class in rogue that can do exactly what you wanted to end by grounding people a la pathfinder restrictions.

Second, I can see that you are the type of person who likes to explore by ground. I have zero problems with this. It, however, should not be a reason to ground every single person. I’m sure many would agree that exploring once is plenty and there is no need to hold off on flying for as long as they do.

Third, I can totally agree with pathfinder idea. Execution is a different discussion altogether. I think that blizzard realized how tedious the world was without flying and had to “stick to their guns” with its release so they implemented the flight whistle. If they knew that grounding people was the best thing until flight, why introduce it? The backlash was incredible. They knew they had to compromise somehow. It does make it more bearable, I agree.

Finally, I disagree on the time release for PF2. I just don’t see it as advantageous to make people wait like that. Classic took a lot of attention off of the current state of BFA but the burnout was REAL before the classic launch. Servers that were normally full were dying well before classic. Waiting only hurt them in this regard.

[Revamp Man]

I like it being the luxury, the reward, part of the goal. Flight is just a cheat-pass for zones like Nazjatar.

Let's be honest
The pros outweigh the cons

I get to the rare or quest faster
I lose nothing of value
It was fun for a bit but I miss blizzard embracing flight

[Lochton]

Let's be honest
The pros outweigh the cons

I get to the rare or quest faster
I lose nothing of value
It was fun for a bit but I miss blizzard embracing flight

The fact that the pros list is longer than the cons explains why it should be earned with Pathfinder (only one stage).

[Revamp Man]

The fact that the pros list is longer than the cons explains why it should be earned with Pathfinder (only one stage).

Wouldn't it be nice if flight was usable like in wotlk

I don't like the useless "hey guys just play the game and get flying that no longer expands gameplay"

[GenericDragon]

I don't mind flying being gated, but putting it behind a rep grind is just annoying.

In my opinion, it should be unlocked by earning achievements for full exploration of each of the major zones, plus an achievement for all of the storylines related to each of those zones. So for BFA, it should have been for fully exploring Zandalar and Kul'Tiras, completing all of the required quest lines for each zone (either one faction or both), and then simply time-locked until after Nazjatar released and with Nazjatar's zone completion required achievements. Still puts a time lock on things, requires you to explore and experience the story, but doesn't require the boring grind.

[Lochton]

Wouldn't it be nice if flight was usable like in wotlk

I don't like the useless "hey guys just play the game and get flying that no longer expands gameplay"

So, you mean at near end level before two zones were hell without flight?

Currently, you having flight - heck - any expansion having flight has not expanded it, it has just given you a shortcut. A lot of the places can be gotten to by foot (even wrath). Makes more sense to have people on the first chapter of the story, and earn it so they can apply content for the rest of the chapters were they can weave in flight.

Not really useless to expect that the players you make the game for actually plays the game?

[Powerogue]

hardcore people no-life through everything. Should they not bother releasing raids because hardcore people will clear them in a week?