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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Highelf View Post
    What is their identity? Mindless puppets of their scapegoat leader that have blighted and killed thousands of people since WC3? Then you can add on, a race that shows their victim card and the typical horde "my bad" schtick and then gets an actual story arc and development? Because that's the identity that most people see them as at this point, including npcs within org.
    I literally wrote the identity in that post. Undead individuals that has been shunned by their previous societies which later created their own to have a place called home. That's their identity.

    Now it gets reduced to if you are undead you are forsaken. Their identity gets reduced. It doesn't get to grow. This might turn them to a more civil and peaceful faction. Sure. Doesn't change the fact that their identity is reduced to looks rather than a society of necessity and desperation for a place to call home.

    Neither Calia nor Derek fits the narrative that they are shunned by their society and is looking for a place to call home.
    Derek is literally going forsaken and horde because he now looks undead regardless of already having a home.

    Fairly sure most people who play Undead are doing so because they like the idea of a society created through desperation and being cast out. Which now gets deleted in 2 patches in a hamfisted way.
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2019-10-08 at 08:46 AM.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Nelinrah View Post
    In addition to that, pretty much every race except humans, orcs, and the elves have that problem. So many races have all of their lore connected to just their racial leader and the other characters of that race are minor side characters that are easy to overlook regardless of their actual importance. Draenei, gnomes, trolls, goblins, worgen, and pretty much every single allied race are like that.

    But people only say "Sylvanas is the problem" for forsaken, but don't say "Velen is the problem" or "Gelbin is the problem."
    It's how races are written and have been written for a fair while. The argument is only used against Sylvanas because rather than being in charge of an inexplicable army of numb clones, she has an actual in-story personality cult who's implications are gone into. Characters who lead clones of themselves because of writer fiat instead of in-story reasons like Baine or Anduin are much worse.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    What I find hilarious about all this, how many times in recent years has sylvanas either raised or killed and raised alliance characters and troops and brought them into the forsaken either by demand or by force. Now she's abandoned the forsaken people are crying about having to accept calia as the new forsaken ruler being forced on them?
    Perhaps because she's the opposite of the entire Forsaken identity built up to this point? I'm really not sure what's hard to understand here- perhaps you've never played any Forsaken quests?

    Calia is a light priestess leading a race whose main religion is a deliberate inversion of the Church of the Holy Light and who are literally burned by the Light itself.
    She is a perfect immortal harmonious being leading a race full of shambling corpses in a state of constant torment whose souls are imperfectly and naturally tacked onto their bodies.
    She's a pacifist leading a race who make horrific plagues for fun.
    Her main tenants are forgiveness and love, but the only reason the Forsaken were able to survive at all was their thirst for revenge against those that wronged them.
    The whole Forsaken identity is based around (suprise, suprise) being forsaken, but Calia has been universally accepted by everyone she meets. She represents the very powers, both mundane and supernatural, that rejected them in the first place and that they deliberatly defined themselves against.

    It was always a given that someone was going to forced onto the Firsaken; it didn't have to be someone who represents the polar opposite of all Forsaken lore up to this point. I mean perhaps a minority would follow her after the debacle that was Sylvanas, but Blizzard should have allowed room for players who want to stick to the lore to do so.

  4. #224
    Herald of the Titans Amaterasu65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tromage2 View Post
    Calia and the Mag’har Orcs in 1 faction......
    It makes 0 sense blizzard it is like putting a Eradar as leader of the worgen next to the Draenei.
    A undead light being would be the biggest nightmare of the AU Orc but lets ignore it.....

    Not sure what writters blizzard currently have but they actually managed to destroy the Horde in a few years after Metzen.
    Maghar are still next to Blood Elves who worship a (now) Light-infused Sun(!)well.

  5. #225
    with that ilgynoth quote I hope calia sees some meaningful resistance and fucks off to the alliance with some lightforged undead or something.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakana View Post
    Yep. Sylvanas is good looking char, people love that and it's a modafucking banshee huntard w/death magic (possibly?) that did always follow her objectives and i loved her char for that (her objectives not her good looking) but not when it comes to forsaken identity. But also i don't want forsaken to be alliance or having a lightbound undead skeleton on the alliance side. They have the humans we have their undeads. everyone is tho too triggered with this while i just want titan residuum to be gone and azerites pieces, with the new content that is coming, i want to be gear azerite free, but they will never do this (sorry im really tired of concerns about races when in my actual gameplay on my chars is this shit annoys the heck out of me)

    Continuing the conversation... They could just leave the forsaken be a council with Lilian voss in it. Calia could be part of it too, but doesn't really need to be leader, i thought i wanted this (seeing her being as leader), but now that i'm thinking forward, and how stuff will be playing out, seems not best option. I just wanted to see Menethil having a fking good menethil ruler for once. Heck. But nothing makes sense anymore, just give forsaken their damn free will, they had enough struggles as it is with their fate. Ah well.
    Just like how when Kael'thas abandoned his people for greater power and a pact with an evil power, the Blood Elves had some characters to pick up the pieces and lead them in a time of struggle. The Forsaken, one of the original core races... has to look to newly raised alliance members to lead them... 15 years and all the Forsaken has is Lilian Voss... someone who only joined this expansion, who is now appointing(setting up) Alliance members... to be the leaders of the Race that is supposed to hate the Alliance most. Glad i don't play anymore lol

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Amaterasu65 View Post
    Maghar are still next to Blood Elves who worship a (now) Light-infused Sun(!)well.
    Sunwell remains arcane, it is infused by the light but is a mix between the two.
    But i can see that the Mag’har are concerned about the sunwell aswell.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    Just like how when Kael'thas abandoned his people for greater power and a pact with an evil power, the Blood Elves had some characters to pick up the pieces and lead them in a time of struggle. The Forsaken, one of the original core races... has to look to newly raised alliance members to lead them... 15 years and all the Forsaken has is Lilian Voss... someone who only joined this expansion, who is now appointing(setting up) Alliance members... to be the leaders of the Race that is supposed to hate the Alliance most. Glad i don't play anymore lol
    forsaken have enough to choose from. the reason and the problem are the writers and golden. who really should be fired if anyone cared

    just imagine being able to find derek's body intact after 20 years underwater and being burned by the dragons before

    this character should not exist at all. they just brought him because of his name. which is just creative impotence

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by tromage2 View Post
    Sunwell remains arcane, it is infused by the light but is a mix between the two.
    But i can see that the Mag’har are concerned about the sunwell aswell.
    How about we just kill the Mag'har? They were a mistake anyway.

  10. #230
    "The only reason why people like the Forsaken and Sylvanas is because Sylvanas is waifu-bait"

    Same People: "Calia should be the leader of the Forsaken because she was from Lordaeron, has claim to the throne, became undead, and she cares. She's literally my waifu."

    I love the WoW fandom sometimes.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    Just like how when Kael'thas abandoned his people for greater power and a pact with an evil power, the Blood Elves had some characters to pick up the pieces and lead them in a time of struggle. The Forsaken, one of the original core races... has to look to newly raised alliance members to lead them... 15 years and all the Forsaken has is Lilian Voss... someone who only joined this expansion, who is now appointing(setting up) Alliance members... to be the leaders of the Race that is supposed to hate the Alliance most. Glad i don't play anymore lol
    The issue is not the absence of characters, it's that Blizzard doesn't want to use them. The current writing staff despise the Forsaken's identity of fifteen years and want humans with a skin condition. And so they've produced them. Allowing even one prior relevant Forsaken NPC to make an appearance of note and be in character would nullify this.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  12. #232
    Epic! Highelf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    I literally wrote the identity in that post. Undead individuals that has been shunned by their previous societies which later created their own to have a place called home. That's their identity.

    Now it gets reduced to if you are undead you are forsaken. Their identity gets reduced. It doesn't get to grow. This might turn them to a more civil and peaceful faction. Sure. Doesn't change the fact that their identity is reduced to looks rather than a society of necessity and desperation for a place to call home.

    Neither Calia nor Derek fits the narrative that they are shunned by their society and is looking for a place to call home.
    Derek is literally going forsaken and horde because he now looks undead regardless of already having a home.

    Fairly sure most people who play Undead are doing so because they like the idea of a society created through desperation and being cast out. Which now gets deleted in 2 patches in a hamfisted way.
    No, that is wrong. Their identity is what I typed, accept it or not. That's literally what they are at this point and who they've been in the past. You are defined by your actions and the choices you make.

    By grow do you mean, doing nothing but the same blighting every day. slaughtering another farm on Tuesday and another town on Friday.

    Oh they're still cast out, like I said not even horde npc's in org trust them. They just aren't heartless mindless blighting machines, oh noooo!

    Now that Calia is leading them, and she is the only heir to the throne, they can now finally have that home back again but still not be trusted by either side. It's called character progression.

    The way I see it, the only thing really missing is the slaughtering and blighting part.
    “I've noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born.”
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  13. #233
    It wasn't really a surprise but with as much blacklash as players send towards the mere idea that Calia could be the next leader I am amazed Blizz is still doing it. Amazed and throughly amused.

    *grabs popcorn*

    As I said in another thread: You people that are already damning Calia to the eight circle of hell have no idea what her character actually is. No one knows. We have a few lines about her in BTS and that is it. The only thing that will very likely not happen is Forsaken that are a bunch of edgy mass murdering zombies that shout Death to the Living. If that is the only Forsaken you want to be then I suggest you find Sylvanas and suck up to her until she doesn`t need you anymore and personally feeds you to the "hungering darkness". At least you can`t claim anymore that nobody warned you or that you didn't have a choice (We all know that if this comes to pass these players will whine their hearts out regardless, "never even hinted at!", "completely out of character!", "horrible writing!").

    The remaining decent Forsaken will doubtlessly profit immensely from having a leader that actually cares about them, but I assume those are the minority.

    Meanwhile the poetic justice that Sylvanas killed Calia because she was a POTENTIAL threat to her power and thus enabled her to become an ACTUAL threat to her power is sweet as honey. Another fail for the Banshee.

  14. #234
    is this highelf dude the same who rp'ed as alleria and ve before?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    As I said in another thread: You people that are already damning Calia to the eight circle of hell have no idea what her character actually is. No one knows. We have a few lines about her in BTS and that is it.
    nice! great candidate for the forsaken leader. you are eaither trolling or just bad in thinking

  15. #235
    Epic! Highelf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    There's a reason this story is predicated upon having no character who was Forsaken before BFA make a meaningful appearance. The only Forsaken involved in the obliteration of the Forsaken is Voss, who wasn't even part of the state until the start of BFA. Lydon, Belmont, Faranell, Anselm, Wroth, Cozwynn, Helcular - all absent or only in second long cameos. Then people who've never touched a Forsaken zone will tell us with a straight face that the problem was Sylvanas and that there was no Forsaken cast except her.
    When Voss says something like, I've always been forsaken...um what? Didn't she absolutely hate the undead and forsaken, she never wanted to be part of it. Then all of a sudden, yeah man they're my people.
    “I've noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born.”
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  16. #236
    Bloodsail Admiral Micronetic's Avatar
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    But, what happens to the people who chose the quest line to be for Sylvanas and the one wo was for Saurfang? Is Blizzard going to split them between Calia and Sylvanas? 3rd faction with Sylvanas maybe?

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Highelf View Post
    When Voss says something like, I've always been forsaken...um what? Didn't she absolutely hate the undead and forsaken, she never wanted to be part of it. Then all of a sudden, yeah man they're my people.
    Yeah, that part's pure nonsense and just damage control so they can claim there's at least one old Forsaken character left. Voss wasn't part of the Forsaken (the political entity) until BFA. It's a turn that has some value - the Forsaken PC got Voss through a very difficult time as she was becoming aware after being raised and now she wants to help others through the process. But while she's representative of the Forsaken condition, given her abandonment by her family and religion and having to recontextualize her role, she isn't really of the Forsaken political state, as she was never a part of it or its goals nor was subject to the personality cult.

    It's also entirely thrown out the window when after Sylvanas bails Voss doesn't reluctantly offer guidance to people who've been through what she has but instead seeks out a new God-Queen for them to worship, except one that's had zero to do with them up until now and who's first line of dialogue to her while Voss is gushing about Calia for no reason is to tell her how much she liked Voss's dad. You know, the guy who tried to set Voss on fire for being undead and raised her to be a killing machine even in life, the guy who led a part of the Scarlet Crusade who tried to wipe out the Forsaken while Calia was fondling footmen in Southshore.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  18. #238
    Epic! Highelf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Anyway Il'gynoth pretty much paints a picture of Calia bringing darkness so you will get rid of her eventually.
    What is that quote again?
    “I've noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born.”
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  19. #239
    Epic! Highelf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Yeah, that part's pure nonsense and just damage control so they can claim there's at least one old Forsaken character left. Voss wasn't part of the Forsaken (the political entity) until BFA. It's a turn that has some value - the Forsaken PC got Voss through a very difficult time as she was becoming aware after being raised and now she wants to help others through the process. But while she's representative of the Forsaken condition, given her abandonment by her family and religion and having to recontextualize her role, she isn't really of the Forsaken political state, as she was never a part of it or its goals nor was subject to the personality cult.

    It's also entirely thrown out the window when after Sylvanas bails Voss doesn't reluctantly offer guidance to people who've been through what she has but instead seeks out a new God-Queen for them to worship, except one that's had zero to do with them up until now and who's first line of dialogue to her while Voss is gushing about Calia for no reason is to tell her how much she liked Voss's dad. You know, the guy who tried to set Voss on fire for being undead and raised her to be a killing machine even in life, the guy who led a part of the Scarlet Crusade who tried to wipe out the Forsaken while Calia was fondling footmen in Southshore.
    I gotcha. "some value" is an accurate assessment of her journey I suppose albeit a little weak. I just always roled her as a loner, you know, a rogue.

    Most recent presidents and people of office have zero to do with us but we elect them anyways, at the very least, because they think they represent the opposite of what they had before. Makes sense, plus they still see her as heir to the throne.
    “I've noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born.”
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  20. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tihani View Post
    Nah, they just gave Calia and Derek to the Horde and Lightforged Undead will be a Horde Allied Race.
    But why? Didn't Calia come back to life thanks to Anduin aswell? And isn't Derek extremely close to Jaina even as an undead? How can they ever be elected rulers, and how can they ever want to be hostile towards the alliance? I seriously don't get it.

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