*Spoilers* Tyrande's reaction to end of 4th war

[Felixon]

Nope because they know that half of the alliance players play night elves and they think of money in the first place
Also golden has a pretty big love to Anduin

Corrected it for you.

Infracted.

[Every Pwny]

Because I argue facts, you argue from your head canon.

Again, strawmanning. Read the posts, could you do that for me once?

Tyrande not viewing Sylvanas as a threat is not a fact, that is an assumption. What you lead you to believe she does not? Why would she not view the person who committed genocide against her people, fought Malfurion and raised night elves from death as not a threat? It's more likely she views her as a threat more than she doesn't based on just the history of this expansion. Tyrande even goes after Sylvanas's dangerous Valkyr in Darkshore because they are a threat. Tyrande just coming out and saying it wouldn't change that much, except for just spelling it out.

[Darththeo]

Tyrande not viewing Sylvanas as a threat is not a fact, that is an assumption. What you lead you to believe she does not? Why would she not view the person who committed genocide against her people, fought Malfurion and raised night elves from death as not a threat? It's more likely she views her as a threat more than she doesn't based on just the history of this expansion.

I am not arguing Tyrande doesn't view Sylvanas as a threat. I am arguing against stating as a fact she does.

Again, Strawman. Everything is "If you aren't arguing for Tyrande viewing Sylvanas as a Threat then you must be arguing she doesn't." That's nonsense. Everything is either this or that for you. There are no other options in your head.

I am arguing we can't treat Tyrande views Sylvanas as a current threat AS A FACT. That doesn't mean I think the opposite is true. I am arguing we don't know if Tyrande considers Sylvanas to be a threat or not at the current time. There are implications, but implications aren't facts.

[Every Pwny]

I am not arguing Tyrande doesn't view Sylvanas as a threat. I am arguing against stating as a fact she does.

You've been arguing that she needs to state it in a line of dialogue, which is not really relevant as everyone understand the threat of Sylvanas, there is no reason given to really believe she doesn't view her as a threat either especially with Tyrande's history with her this expansion. Maybe she says it in some quest later on so you can rest easy getting it spelled out.

[Grimbold21]

Ugh, can we stop with this focus on humans?

Can't we just be allies without being under the yolk of a "high king"?

[Darththeo]

You've been arguing that she needs to state it in a line of dialogue, which is not really relevant as everyone understand the threat of Sylvanas, there is no reason given to really believe she doesn't view her as a threat either especially with Tyrande's history with her this expansion. Maybe she says it in some quest later on so you can rest easy getting it spelled out.

Every time she had a chance to address Sylvanas, it was about vengeance, not any threat that Sylvanas may pose.

Why is it unreasonable to expect a character who should have multiple motivations address those motivations?

[Pheraz]

And that stopped them from shitting on nelves on every occasion?

I actually think they did this as a "Phoenixes from the ashes"-method to fire on the amazonish spirit of the Kaldorei again.
Previously the little story we had in WoW (not wc3) was either centered around lamenting about the old times or about raising mutated trees everywhere. So it was rather centered around peace. Which didn't cut it for some peeps at Blizzard I think.
I am not sure if burning the "not blessed mutant tree" was the best way of having the ashes where the Kaldorei Phoenixes can rise from but I think this is what they are doing.

Who knows what 9.0 will be like, but if it will feature some sort of world revamp (although they said that they won't do it again at a level of Cataclysm, maybe they do it more with that "phasing"-way) I guess Nordrassil will be the new Kaldorei home. Darkshore is just a place full of shit now, felwood is well.. the fel-wood...
Only Ashenvale, Valsharah, Feathermoon Stronghold and Nordrassil left. I guess out of all those three they would chose the most iconic one: Nordrassil

Tyrande will try to kill Sylvanas, then maybe some sort of Peaceuin intervention will be made, Tyrande will go full-bright-moon again and Sylvanas will be abandoned into that Death dimension, because let's try to think they don't lie, she won't be killed and she won't be chained. Although I am not sure they said that she won't be killed ... I think they said that she won't end up as a Raidboss or in chains.

So I think it might only look like they "shit on the Kaldorei" in the first place. I am on the phoenix train now.

Edit: maybe the reason why Tyrande will lay down her revenge is because she understands why Elune let all these things happen... Maybe because it was some sort of "testing" or some sort of needed event for Elune because Teldrassil was polluted by old god stuff

[Kromus!]

This is good! Completely realistic with everything that's happened. A bit of conflicting opinion within the Alliance is good and I like the idea of the night elves being a little distant with the alliance with everything thats happened. As long as they dont make her go super evil or anything!

[Every Pwny]

Every time she had a chance to address Sylvanas, it was about vengeance, not any threat that Sylvanas may pose.

Why is it unreasonable to expect a character who should have multiple motivations address those motivations?

See exactly, you just want it all spelled out, it doesn't need to be, their full motives can be revealed as time goes on, she does not need to state it all in the couple lines she gets with Anduin. The threat of Sylvanas is well known by the audience, and the damage she did to the night elves and their dead is also well known. There is no real reason to believe Tyrande does not see Sylvanas as a threat, but you can't state it "AS FACT" (as you like to say) because it's not directly spelled out for you. Writing can be mysterious, force you to infer things based on things that happened previously or reveal things later on, it doesn't need to just spell everything out for you all the time every time someone speaks.

The shit part of the writing is the night elves having practically zero story this entire expansion, other than their genocide and then pretty much no updates on what they are doing or how they are progressing. This dialogue was fine.

[George Lucas]

Sounds pretty tame to me. I don't see how Tyrande does state or do anything that even borders edgy or grey. Even she lays most blame on Sylvanas alone and only plans to hunt her down, instead of targeting the Horde as a whole.

[Every Pwny]

Sounds pretty tame to me. I don't see how Tyrande does state or do anything that even borders edgy or grey. Even she lays most blame on Sylvanas alone and only plans to hunt her down, instead of targeting the Horde as a whole.

It's edgy because she disagrees with Anduin, so she must be a raid boss.

[Pheraz]

Sounds pretty tame to me. I don't see how Tyrande does state or do anything that even borders edgy or grey. Even she lays most blame on Sylvanas alone and only plans to hunt her down, instead of targeting the Horde as a whole.

Indeed. She wants justice. She didn't say she wants to kill as many orcs as nightelves or something like this.
I don't understand why some people think this makes her evil.
I mean... I am really not a fan of using this real-life-events as comparison.. but mass murders from Germany were hunt down on the whole planet for 70 years... And some have been sentenced to death after the Nurnberg trials. So... sorry.. but calling Tyrande evil because she wants justice is prbly not correct and will be proven wrong by Blizzard soon.

[Shiza]

Indeed.

I'm apalled by how many people are pleased with Tyrande becoming a psycho..

I hope they don't destroy her character though, much of what has happened is tied into a bigger plot, tyrande is the voice of Elune, and once that is revealed
it should satisfy her rage and utilise her constructively.

Most people liked Tyrande back when she was a psychopath back in WC3. I mean, that's the problem with the Night elves, isn't it? People fell in love with them, because they were psychopathic savage amazonian warriors who would slaughter people for touching their trees and who were so strong, Grom Hellscream himself had to fall back on drinking Mannoroth-juice again. People loved them, because they had Demon Hunters and their secret police was a fucking Judge Dredd reference.

There is nobody who likes the Nightelves as peaceful little tree people. Thats why everything Blizzard did with them over the last few years was so unpopular, because when it came to the Horde they always just got stepped on and their few moments to shine was as neutral druidic tree cuddlers.

Fuck, I'm pretty sure even Malfurion probably had his most popular moment in the 8.1 cinematic, when he got to fight the Horde and be threatening.

[George Lucas]

Indeed. She wants justice. She didn't say she wants to kill as many orcs as nightelves or something like this.
I don't understand why some people think this makes her evil.

Even slaying random Horde soldiers wouldn't make her evil after all what happened, it would only make her story and all that night warrior stuff interesting at last. This plot is so devoid of any reasonable emotion and tension...

[Soon-TM]

I feel uncomfortable with the whole far-rightwing propaganda Blizzard makes with Anduin. I mean, Blizz storywriting was ever rightwing as fuck, but presenting trivializing genocide and protecting the culprits who commited a genocide as the voice of reason and wisdom seems to reach the far rightwing territory and sounds like an alt-right dogwhistle.

Do we know something about Hazzikostas political leanings and whether or not he has connections to the alt-right online community?

To me, it sounds like standard US policy, rather than alt-right. You can have the most despicable dictator in the world, and rest assured that he will be whitewashed to hell and back if the US ruling circles consider that he will help to advance their agenda. See e.g. Egypt or Saudi Arabia.

But we should avoid RL politics here, lest some hypersensitive mods get triggered...

[formerShandalay]

I really like those dialogues.
I mean, in part Anduin is right of course, in wanting peace and in showing some trust, but as Tyrande said, he is too trusting. Not with the ones actually leading the Horde (even Tyrande says, the ones "riding" the rabid wolf may be ok), but with the organization as a whole. And ultimately, I think, even with the Alliance as a whole.
He should not just let it rest and give it a break. Horde leaders and Alliance leaders should do everything in their powers to flush out the ones that are still left of all of those cults they already had in their ranks, of all the people that not only are ok with war, but also promote it and do so for ulterior motives, the manipulators that drive everyone nuts again and again. We've seen hints of them all throughout WoW, all the time on both sides of the fence and only sometimes did we thwart a plot or two of them and sometimes we found one and killed them, but we've never actually acknowledged them or tried to find them actively. Only by chance. And that is going to be really, really bad down the line.

On the other hand, I think Elune is the only god/goddess that has been adhering to any kind of code during all of that time. If anyone knows the 'Star-eyed Goddess' from the Mercedes Lackey books, that is kind of what I'm referring to. Giving mortals their actual freedom and free will, even if that means they fuck up big time and do things that are atrocious, judging and punishing them only after they die. Granting some power to those that pledge themselves to her, but only within some limits. If she intervenes personally then only if asked and the person asking has proven that she/he means it, sometimes at the cost of their own life. Everything more would mean the Goddess abuses her power to impose her will upon the world. Which is exactly what we usually accuse the Naaru and the Old Gods of, no matter how subtle they are about their interventions and/or manipulations.
If you want actual free will and do things on your own, you can't then go to the gods and complain if it turns out to be shit.

Interestingly Elune has not chosen to inform Tyrande that she intervened at Teldrassil.
My bet is that Tyrande will go down the route we've seen her at in the End Time dungeon and also at the end learn that she was not abandoned and come back to Elune's light, just like she did there. At least I hope so. I would hate it, if she gets the actual and definite villain-bat.

[TheRagebear]

Doesn't matter. You can't make revenge rational. Revenge by definition is driven by emotion, not rational.

So you just want cold, calculating robots that never let anything other than logic guide them. Okay, cool.

Go back to Reddit and say strawman some more.

[ravenmoon]

Most people liked Tyrande back when she was a psychopath back in WC3. I mean, that's the problem with the Night elves, isn't it? People fell in love with them, because they were psychopathic savage amazonian warriors who would slaughter people for touching their trees and who were so strong, Grom Hellscream himself had to fall back on drinking Mannoroth-juice again. People loved them, because they had Demon Hunters and their secret police was a fucking Judge Dredd reference.

There is nobody who likes the Nightelves as peaceful little tree people. Thats why everything Blizzard did with them over the last few years was so unpopular, because when it came to the Horde they always just got stepped on and their few moments to shine was as neutral druidic tree cuddlers.

Fuck, I'm pretty sure even Malfurion probably had his most popular moment in the 8.1 cinematic, when he got to fight the Horde and be threatening.

Myabe... it's more complex than that.

I liked the night elves in WC3 for many reason, one of the more striking reasons was they were a lot sterner than your "high society" "English 18th century nobleman -sort of high elf.

it was refreshing for a contrast, but they had far more to them than that. The aspect of them portrayed there has been blown up by fans because we never saw that side of them again in WoW - blizzard opted to show us the benevolent side for classic, then just didn't develop the night elves after that. .with cataclysm, 6 years later being the first progression of the race since release wher ethey weere agin portrayed as weak and easily overcome, very much unlike WC3

Fans love a winner, and when night elves weren't shown in balance, wit only the gentle soft side, they craved more the strict, aggressive side of WC3. However, this is what blizzard gave the blood elves, toughening them up in TBC and actually giving them the sort of iron resolve tha tthe night elves had in WC£, while not touching up the night elves at all.

HThe next true insight to the night elves came in Legion and was much better, yet people don't view demon hunters and nightborne as the primarily night elven groups they actually are. And because Farondis are ghosts their execllence isn't counted in. We defeat the Ravencrests in Black rook hold, so we don't see much of that but we do see the ferocity of the Wardens and at least one of the feral druids, even though he falls to the nightmare iin Val'sharah.

The order of the black moon contiues this side, but it still isnt' enough foor some. Black moon, Wardens Nightborne, Demon hunters, Moonguard - these should all be examples and reflections of sides of the night elves, that show that, but they are recent, and they are fighting 14 years of night elf s seeing as purple skinnned weak humans.

tyrandde doesn't neeed to be psychotic in a stupid way to continue to re-inforce that, part of her problem is that her character wasn't used for anything from classic to MoP, it is in MoP she makes a cameo forr the first time in wow as opposed ot sitting in Darnassus doing nothing. Not her fault, it's the writers neglecting her and the entire race.


The racial porfile and character of the night elves in its diversity and wonder set out in WC3 manual, War of the ANcients trilogy book, Warcraft 3 game, and woW classic, as well as the books and cataclysm and Legion expansion, alongside 8.1 and 8.2 really have it all, but it's so few and far between, it lacks coherency and focus.


what they should be doing is ending her character, not destroying it. Tyrande going psycho always turned out to be the right and good thing to go, and she had good reason to do so. She was right to release Illidan, even though she ddoubted it, she was right in all her actions that seemed rash, this actually befits a courageous and tenacious leader who actualy hears from a goddess type figure and has to do some tough things that seem very brash, but are actually the thing to do.

Sometimes killing is the right thing to do, and you can't be soft or gentle about it when the subjects are given wholly to death and evil and won't relent, you have to act, and somteimts long held beliefs like the improisonment of Illidan or the banning of arcane magic are actually wrong decisions, which when realised require a radical turn around, and a swift one to employ quickly enough to avert disaster and can result in you killing former friends who refuse to listen and instead stand in the way becvause they have failed to grasp the importance of the times.

it is that Tyrande should embody.. behaviour that appears psychotic but is shown not to e so at all, but the right call, and in a way that she doesn't lose the eseence of who she is. she is a good person as is her goddess, but they also have a warior vengeful side that would exterminate offenders who have crossed a line.

Her goddess enabled her to cal lon the black moon, and reap lives in venegeance for another purpose, to have Tyrande go all crazy hence forth and become ar iad boss would be wrong. She should continue to show that steel bu tnot turn into the psycho in the full sense of that word that some people hope.

[Soon-TM]

Can't we just be allies without being under the yolk of a "high king"?

Nope. Better worship your blonde God's holy bones, lest you want to end "redeemed" ala Sadfang, or turned into a raid (or even dungeon, lmao) boss.

Nope because they know that half of the alliance players play night elves and they think of money in the first place
Also golden has a pretty big love to alliance

That didn't prevent Blizzard from turning NEs into the Horde's ultimate punching bag since Cata. As for Golden, she just cares about Humans, especially Anduin and his auntie. All the other Alliance races might as well not exist, as far as she is concerned.

[Shiza]

Nope. Better worship your blonde God's holy bones, lest you want to end "redeemed" ala Sadfang, or turned into a raid (or even dungeon, lmao) boss.

But Anduin is a fucking Nazi!