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  1. #361
    Epic! Highelf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    Fucking gag...

    Forsaken new leader is now a person who isn't a Forsaken, doesn't know a damn thing about what they went through, and the one point she had to make an impact on the forsaken (meeting between Forsaken/Humans) she hid her identity like a scared little girl.
    Ahhhh the horde victim card thing again.
    “I've noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born.”
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  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakana View Post
    @Mehrunes you're too pro-Sylvanas
    Uh-huh. Which is why I repeatedly made the argument against trying to bog this topic down to Sylvanas vs Calia and called it a false dichotomy. Got a better handwave in lieu of real arguments?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by RH92 View Post
    Uhm, did you forget about Putress in WotLK? Even in Hillsbrand Foothills there is a quest where Warden Stillwater directly opposes Sylvanas.

    Most of the Forsaken are vicious cunts anyway, it is not like Sylvanas orders them to be sadistic maniacs. She never really cared as long as they succeed.



    He is not, he is actually right.

    If they wanted to redeem Forsaken they could have continued the forgotten storyline of Tauren helping them find a cure for undeath. It is actually Tauren who played a huge role in their acceptance into Horde and it would make a perfect sense with Sylvanas' disappearance and Baine in charge.
    You telling me you want a cure for undeath instead?

  4. #364
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Highelf View Post
    Ahhhh the horde victim card thing again.
    If there was a weaker straw for you to grasp here I'd be impressed.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Uh-huh. Which is why I repeatedly made the argument against trying to bog this topic down to Sylvanas vs Calia and called it a false dichotomy. Got a better handwave in lieu of real arguments?
    I said all i wanted to say on the past posts and they are there to read, i have literally grown tired of being here today typing. So whatever is your opinion good, but the "wow" "whoa" was unnecessary tbh.

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I think there's actually an unaccounted middle ground in all this, which is mostly left undiscussed and unobserved due to the polarization of the pro and anti-Calia camps. Goes back to the same basic gist I've maintained for some time - the Forsaken not being a monolith, being neither 100% hateful or seeking the death of all living beings nor 100% seeking atonement and/or "humans with a skin condition" as the hyperbole goes. That's kind of why I want the Forsaken to have two leaders - who I often feel will wind up as Lilian Voss and Calia Menethil, one leader for each side of the Forsaken polity: those who embrace undeath and wish to use it as a weapon against those who threat them, and those who seek some form of remedy or "cure" be that physical or spiritual. There's room for both viewpoints among the people, and having that internal rift opens up far more narrative possibilities for the Forsaken as a race.

    Calia can minister to those Forsaken who seek a way out of the hatred and inward-violence that have defined the Forsaken up to this point, those who feel as the Desolate Council once did and have been cowed from further dissent due to what happened to them. Voss can represent and likely moderate the more practical element of her people, like Belmont, who seem to embrace undeath as a state of being and not a transitory condition. Hopefully, with sufficient time the Forsaken can find themselves in a more balanced footing and can actually join the Horde in earnest, something they've yet to really do on any significant level due to holding themselves apart for so long.
    Given how Voss flat out rejects the leadership role with that being the primary reason why she reached out to Calia, that entire prospect flies out of the window. And not like a free happy bird but through defenestration. Which means that Calia will minister to any and all Forsaken, because that's the unification way. And those any and all Forsaken will like it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shakana View Post
    I said all i wanted to say on the past posts and they are there to read, i have literally grown tired of being here today typing. So whatever is your opinion good, but the "wow" "whoa" was unnecessary tbh.
    The what now? And if you already said all you wanted to say earlier in the thread why fallaciously misrepresent my position in order to merrily dismiss it in the first place, eh?


    Quote Originally Posted by Highelf View Post
    Ahhhh the horde victim card thing again.
    How does that relate to what you replied to there again?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  7. #367
    Pit Lord RH92's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    It might be a part of the whole Forsaken package to be a sadistic asshole, which is why I'm actually genuinely interested in what will happen to the faction now. Calia is not that at all and I hope we actually see some interesting changes and possibly a split between loyalist Forsaken and new-age Forsaken who want to reclaim some semblance of humanity.
    I don't mind them developing, but they could have easily done it without inserting Alliance lapdogs into leadership role of a Horde nation.

    In Vanilla there was a quest where it was explained that Forsaken are sinister by 'nature' due the undeath, unable to feel positive emotions. The only joy they had was from inflicting suffering upon others and that Light could make them feel alive before getting overwhelmed by pain soon after. We also know Tauren played a huge role in accepting Forsaken into Horde's ranks because they felt pity and wanted to cure them of their state.

    I would rather prefer that Tauren druids find a cure to certain aspects of undeath. It would make a sense now that Sylvanas forsake them and with Baine in charge, it would actually bond them with Horde even more. If the Tauren could make them feel once again it wouldn't sacrifice their identity raising from history, the world wasn't kind to them when they gained a free will.

    Instead we will probably get an utopian kingdom of all the raised races led by a lightbound opportunist living forever and after in an undead happy dream.

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I think there's actually an unaccounted middle ground in all this, which is mostly left undiscussed and unobserved due to the polarization of the pro and anti-Calia camps. Goes back to the same basic gist I've maintained for some time - the Forsaken not being a monolith, being neither 100% hateful or seeking the death of all living beings nor 100% seeking atonement and/or "humans with a skin condition" as the hyperbole goes. That's kind of why I want the Forsaken to have two leaders - who I often feel will wind up as Lilian Voss and Calia Menethil, one leader for each side of the Forsaken polity: those who embrace undeath and wish to use it as a weapon against those who threat them, and those who seek some form of remedy or "cure" be that physical or spiritual. There's room for both viewpoints among the people, and having that internal rift opens up far more narrative possibilities for the Forsaken as a race.

    Calia can minister to those Forsaken who seek a way out of the hatred and inward-violence that have defined the Forsaken up to this point, those who feel as the Desolate Council once did and have been cowed from further dissent due to what happened to them. Voss can represent and likely moderate the more practical element of her people, like Belmont, who seem to embrace undeath as a state of being and not a transitory condition. Hopefully, with sufficient time the Forsaken can find themselves in a more balanced footing and can actually join the Horde in earnest, something they've yet to really do on any significant level due to holding themselves apart for so long.
    Even as someone who could be defined as "anti-Calia" I could definitly get behind a council style Forsaken leadership that allowed for legitimate diversity. The only issue is that Blizzard seems to gave been moving away from diversity within races since Cata, with at present each race being more or less epitomised by a single ethos. I would be very very suprised if we continued to see any "old school" Forsaken post-Calia in any new content (though I doubt they will change the existing zones).

  9. #369
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Given how Voss flat out rejects the leadership role with that being the primary reason why she reached out to Calia, that entire prospect flies out of the window. And not like a free happy bird but through defenestration. Which means that Calia will minister to any and all Forsaken, because that's the unification way. And those any and all Forsaken will like it.
    According to the datamined text, it seems Voss is actually taking on the role of Forsaken racial leader, at least in the interim. Calia isn't yet ready to take up the mantle herself. What happens in the future remains to be seen.

    Overlord Gey'arah: The Mag'har have never known life without a warchief. It will be hard for them--and for me. But it seems your people have lost a queen as well.
    Lilian Voss: The Forsaken are torn by turmoil and doubt. Many still love Sylvanas, even after all she has done. Others believe their home remains in the Horde.
    Overlord Geya'rah: And you? Where do your loyalties lie?
    Lilian Voss: Where they always have--with the Forsaken. To be raised into undeath is to be forever haunted by the ghosts of your past. A caring hand can offer comfort through the pain.
    Overlord Geya'rah: I see no crown upon your head. Are you the new queen they seek?
    Lilian Voss: No. I'll speak on my people's behalf, but I won't rule them. There is another I believe will prove better suited to that task... when the time is right.
    Overlord Geya'rah: The love you hold for your people burns as bright as my own for the Mag'har. I wish you good fortune, Lilian Voss.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Given how Voss flat out rejects the leadership role with that being the primary reason why she reached out to Calia, that entire prospect flies out of the window. And not like a free happy bird but through defenestration. Which means that Calia will minister to any and all Forsaken, because that's the unification way. And those any and all Forsaken will like it.




    The what now? And if you already said all you wanted to say earlier in the thread why fallaciously misrepresent my position in order to merrily dismiss it in the first place, eh?




    How does that relate to what you replied to there again?
    I what? First of all, i don't remember all of the people i answer to rather than what they said, and i need to go back to even read what i answered you. I only have read now the notifications where you answer to half of the people on the thread and i couldn't bare to even type more than i already typed today, and you're saying just because i don't want to type i fallaciously misrepresent your position?

  11. #371
    I'm no fan of Sylvanas. With that said, this is just the latest act in a long line of events meant to push the Horde as being less unique and more similar to the Alliance.

  12. #372
    Well it's official, i will never return to retail.

    my goodness this is an awful decision.

    I didn't roll zombie warlock (evil wizard) to become an ally sympathizing loser down the road.

    my character would rather die with sylvanas than let calia even speak to me.

  13. #373
    Scarab Lord Sesto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    According to the datamined text, it seems Voss is actually taking on the role of Forsaken racial leader, at least in the interim. Calia isn't yet ready to take up the mantle herself. What happens in the future remains to be seen.

    Overlord Gey'arah: The Mag'har have never known life without a warchief. It will be hard for them--and for me. But it seems your people have lost a queen as well.
    Lilian Voss: The Forsaken are torn by turmoil and doubt. Many still love Sylvanas, even after all she has done. Others believe their home remains in the Horde.
    Overlord Geya'rah: And you? Where do your loyalties lie?
    Lilian Voss: Where they always have--with the Forsaken. To be raised into undeath is to be forever haunted by the ghosts of your past. A caring hand can offer comfort through the pain.
    Overlord Geya'rah: I see no crown upon your head. Are you the new queen they seek?
    Lilian Voss: No. I'll speak on my people's behalf, but I won't rule them. There is another I believe will prove better suited to that task... when the time is right.
    Overlord Geya'rah: The love you hold for your people burns as bright as my own for the Mag'har. I wish you good fortune, Lilian Voss.
    the datamined text also involve voss going to calia and asking her to lead. which she accepts

    so "when the time is right" meant in like a few minutes

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by Highelf View Post
    Ahhhh the horde victim card thing again.
    Elaborate.

  15. #375
    Epic! Highelf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    If there was a weaker straw for you to grasp here I'd be impressed.
    When it's true, with a history of truth, it's the biggest straw in the room. It was easy to find actually and it's used to suck the respect out of the horde once again. A straw is actually a good metaphor, good job.
    “I've noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born.”
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  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    According to the datamined text, it seems Voss is actually taking on the role of Forsaken racial leader, at least in the interim. Calia isn't yet ready to take up the mantle herself. What happens in the future remains to be seen.

    Overlord Gey'arah: The Mag'har have never known life without a warchief. It will be hard for them--and for me. But it seems your people have lost a queen as well.
    Lilian Voss: The Forsaken are torn by turmoil and doubt. Many still love Sylvanas, even after all she has done. Others believe their home remains in the Horde.
    Overlord Geya'rah: And you? Where do your loyalties lie?
    Lilian Voss: Where they always have--with the Forsaken. To be raised into undeath is to be forever haunted by the ghosts of your past. A caring hand can offer comfort through the pain.
    Overlord Geya'rah: I see no crown upon your head. Are you the new queen they seek?
    Lilian Voss: No. I'll speak on my people's behalf, but I won't rule them. There is another I believe will prove better suited to that task... when the time is right.
    Overlord Geya'rah: The love you hold for your people burns as bright as my own for the Mag'har. I wish you good fortune, Lilian Voss.
    Yes, Voss saying she won't rule the Forsaken is her expressing her deepest desire to be a ruler of the Forsaken. Truly. That she then goes to Calia to explain the plight of the Forsaken to her (using Night Elven "Forsaken" that are there for some reason as an example because they are the bread and butter of that race) to convince Calia to take up the mantle only cements that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  17. #377
    Pit Lord RH92's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakana View Post
    You telling me you want a cure for undeath instead?
    Not really, I just want them to feel like part of the Horde instead of some twisted Lordaeron reborn wet dream.

    They don't have to cure them, just invent something that helps them regain portions of their long lost humanity without succumbing to an Alliance asspull.

  18. #378
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tharivor View Post
    Even as someone who could be defined as "anti-Calia" I could definitly get behind a council style Forsaken leadership that allowed for legitimate diversity. The only issue is that Blizzard seems to gave been moving away from diversity within races since Cata, with at present each race being more or less epitomised by a single ethos. I would be very very suprised if we continued to see any "old school" Forsaken post-Calia in any new content (though I doubt they will change the existing zones).
    I actually feel as if the races are becoming more diverse, oddly enough - the injection of the Allied Races into the main bodies of the various Horde and Alliance races bring new points of view, schools of thought, and perspectives. The AU Mag'har bring a sense of headstrong warrior mentality back to the Orcs, the Zandalari a regal and deeply traditional aspect to the more nomadic and adaptive Darkspear Trolls, the Lightforged Draenei a more militant and less peace-loving strain of Draenei, and the Kul Tiran Humans a more zealous and hidebound example of Humans.

    I don't think a shift in demographics ever need to lead to an extinction of one type of viewpoint, though; the Forsaken are more than capable of espousing a myriad of opinions about their own state of being, their futures as a people, etc. etc. I dislike the whole "planet of hats" trope when it to storytelling - and while I think each race can and should have a basic theme just for ease of reference, I don't think those themes should be total or absolute in nature.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2019-10-08 at 05:53 PM.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakana View Post
    I what? First of all, i don't remember all of the people i answer to rather than what they said, and i need to go back to even read what i answered you. I only have read now the notifications where you answer to half of the people on the thread and i couldn't bare to even type more than i already typed today, and you're saying just because i don't want to type i fallaciously misrepresent your position?
    Are you seriously going to pretend you forgot a post you made like five minutes ago? Here's a refresher then:

    Quote Originally Posted by Shakana View Post
    @Mehrunes you're too pro-Sylvanas
    And I'm not saying that just because you don't want to type I fallaciously misrepresented what I said. I'm saying you concocting a nonsensical excuse for that is you doing that. Kinda obvious.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  20. #380
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    According to the datamined text, it seems Voss is actually taking on the role of Forsaken racial leader, at least in the interim. Calia isn't yet ready to take up the mantle herself. What happens in the future remains to be seen.

    Overlord Gey'arah: The Mag'har have never known life without a warchief. It will be hard for them--and for me. But it seems your people have lost a queen as well.
    Lilian Voss: The Forsaken are torn by turmoil and doubt. Many still love Sylvanas, even after all she has done. Others believe their home remains in the Horde.
    Overlord Geya'rah: And you? Where do your loyalties lie?
    Lilian Voss: Where they always have--with the Forsaken. To be raised into undeath is to be forever haunted by the ghosts of your past. A caring hand can offer comfort through the pain.
    Overlord Geya'rah: I see no crown upon your head. Are you the new queen they seek?
    Lilian Voss: No. I'll speak on my people's behalf, but I won't rule them. There is another I believe will prove better suited to that task... when the time is right.
    Overlord Geya'rah: The love you hold for your people burns as bright as my own for the Mag'har. I wish you good fortune, Lilian Voss.
    Ok that part is just weird because it completely ignore what voss was doing in cata/mop/wod.

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