new forsaken leader spoilers

[Aucald]

Yes, Voss saying she won't rule the Forsaken is her expressing her deepest desire to be a ruler of the Forsaken. Truly. That she then goes to Calia to explain the plight of the Forsaken to her (using Night Elven "Forsaken" that are there for some reason as an example because they are the bread and butter of that race) to convince Calia to take up the mantle only cements that.

There's a difference between "ruling" her people, and being a leader. She explicitly says she will speak on their behalf (which what leaders do, mind you) - but that she won't rule them, referring to Calia for that instead in all likelihood. She's still going to be an active voice in the leadership of the Forsaken, and until Calia does take up the proverbial crown she's their racial leader for now. What may happen in the future remains to be seen.

[Mehrunes]

I don't think a shift in demographic ever need to lead to an extinction of one type of viewpoint, though; the Forsaken are more than capable of espousing a myriad of opinions about their own state of being, their futures as a people, etc. etc. I dislike the whole "planet of hats" trope when it to storytelling - and while I think each race can and should have a basic theme just for ease of reference, I don't think those themes should be total or absolute in nature.

And Blizzard being atrocious when it comes to avoiding that trope is part of the point. By making Calia their leader they will follow it up by contorting the rest of the Forsaken.

[Shakana]

Not really, I just want them to feel like part of the Horde instead of some twisted Lordaeron reborn wet dream.

They don't have to cure them, just invent something that helps them regain portions of their long lost humanity without succumbing to an Alliance asspull.

I would too be quite sad as a player seeing undead just gone. So i don't know what is worse. If redeemed but still undead or just cured of undeath.
I think my best conclusion is that Sylvanas can just go wherever she wants and the forsaken starts their own council. Since they have been almost a third faction since forever, wouldn't be too awkward to have a council, even they have a desolate council already.

[Highelf]

Elaborate.

1. Our leader drank the blood and so did we, but we'll put it all on the scapegoat leader.
2. Our leader went racist and insane and we backed him and produced a weapon of mass destruction, tested it on innocent students then bombed a city. But it was all HIS idea.
3. Our leader got her panties in a bunch over the word hope and ordered the burning of a city and our other "leader" followed through with the order. But we just wanted to believe in her, she made us do it.

The Alliance: Ok we'll just give you a slap on the wrist and tell you, don't do it again or you'll for sure get a timeout next time.

[Aucald]

the datamined text also involve voss going to calia and asking her to lead. which she accepts

so "when the time is right" meant in like a few minutes

I think that's a bit of leap - Voss obviously wants Calia to take up the mantle, but Calia doesn't jump on aboard immediately either. There's actually a whole scene with her, Derek, and Jaina as she prepares to leave to join the Forsaken. Leadership is still more or less up in the air, for now.

[Dch48]

Yes it is really telling that almost all of the people shilling for Calia and nuForsaken are Alliance players. From what I’ve seen across several mediums is the the majority of Horde players and Forsaken players do not. I don’t know why that offends some of you so much.

Although my avatar reveals me as an Alliance player, I also have played a Forsaken Warlock since Vanilla. He is my only other max level character. I therefore know of and understand the origins and mostly tragic story thereof. I completely embrace the prospect of Calia being the new leader and changing the perception of the Forsaken race. My Warlock was never comfortable being allied with Orcs anyway. Taurens okay but he never liked Orcs. He, like many others of his kind, always longed to be accepted by the Humans they once were. Now there is a chance that can happen.

[Mehrunes]

There's a difference between "ruling" her people, and being a leader. She explicitly says she will speak on their behalf (which what leaders do, mind you) - but that she won't rule them, referring to Calia for that instead in all likelihood. She's still going to be an active voice in the leadership of the Forsaken, and until Calia does take up the proverbial crown she's their racial leader for now. What may happen in the future remains to be seen.

The Horde character was Speaker of the Horde in BfA. Does that mean I was the leader of the Horde this entire expansion without realizing that? No. Voss talking on behalf of the Forsaken because Blizzard forgot other Forsaken exists so they keep resorting to the character that only joined them in BfA doesn't make Voss a leader. She explicitly goes out of her way to procure a leader for the Forsaken in 9.3, which is Calia. In same vein, various Darkspears represented that race in various events like post-Legion feast or what-have-you. But they only get a new leader in 9.3 as well. Because representation does not leadership make.

[Shakana]

Are you seriously going to pretend you forgot a post you made like five minutes ago? Here's a refresher then:



And I'm not saying that just because you don't want to type I fallaciously misrepresented what I said. I'm saying you concocting a nonsensical excuse for that is you doing that. Kinda obvious.

For what i have read "Sylvanas made the undead this and that", Sylvanas didn't do much shit to be quite fair. So i said you're too pro-Sylvanas, so whatever i say about the undead you seek to see and Calia you will probably invalidate every single argument i say.

[Aucald]

The Horde character was Speaker of the Horde in BfA. Does that mean I was the leader of the Horde this entire expansion without realizing that? No. Voss talking on behalf of the Forsaken because Blizzard forgot other Forsaken exists so they keep resorting to the character that only joined them in BfA doesn't make Voss a leader. She explicitly goes out of her way to procure a leader for the Forsaken in 9.3, which is Calia. In same vein, various Darkspears represented that race in various events like post-Legion feast or what-have-you. But they only get a new leader in 9.3 as well. Because representation does not leadership make.

"Speaker of the Horde" was a formality among the Zandalari specifically, who actually has a role called "Speaker" within their assembly. In that regard, the Champion did indeed represent and thus "led" the Horde - it doesn't make them Warchief, though, and they were still answerable to the current leader of the Horde. Before they made their affiliation permanent, the Zandalari treated the Horde just like any other Troll tribe, the Speaker of the Horde was at the same level as the Speaker of the Amani or the Speaker of the Gurubashi, or any of the tribes represented at the Terrace of Speakers.

Representatives *are* leaders, though not always *the* leader. Voss has been one of the more visible Forsaken for some time now, especially as of BfA - she was close to Sylvanas and Nathanos, and thus has the most knowledge of the inner workings of the Forsaken as a society. She makes the most sense as interim leader of the Forsaken in this context (even moreso than Calia, if you ask me).

[Shakana]

"Speaker of the Horde" was a formality among the Zandalari specifically, who actually has a role called "Speaker" within their assembly.

You remembered me vol'jin saying "I speak for the horde"

[Mehrunes]

Representatives *are* leaders, though not always *the* leader. Voss has been one of the more visible Forsaken for some time now, especially as of BfA - she was close to Sylvanas and Nathanos, and thus has the most knowledge of the inner workings of the Forsaken as a society. She makes the most sense as interim leader of the Forsaken in this context (even moreso than Calia, if you ask me).

Representatives *are* representatives. By your metric ambassadors *are* leaders. Which is bogus. And what do you mean especially as of BfA? She hasn't been a Forsaken before BfA.

[Wangming]

So...... I think this entire script, plus what we know in-game, makes it very clear, that all of the identity of the Forsaken was put on Sylvanas. Remove her and the Forsaken is without any identity or purpose.

No Shit. Their farewells are "Victory fo Sylvanas" and "Dark Lady watch over you"

No race has been defined more by their leader than the Forsaken.

[Aucald]

Representatives *are* representatives. By your metric ambassadors *are* leaders. Which is bogus. And what do you mean especially as of BfA? She hasn't been a Forsaken before BfA.

Because a leadership structure always consists of a single person acting as an autocrat. Even autocrats have keys to power on which they depend in a hierarchical fashion, and whose support props up their regime. Those keys to power are also leaders - whether they be military generals, economic advisers, or what-have-you. I would call an ambassador a leadership type role, yes.

You also know I disagree with your especially narrow focus on who is or isn't Forsaken, so we'll skip that repeat of an old argument.

[Shakana]

Representatives *are* representatives. By your metric ambassadors *are* leaders. Which is bogus. And what do you mean especially as of BfA? She hasn't been a Forsaken before BfA.

Well, ye, she got rez by Anduin, S'aara and Alonsus covered and graciously touched by the light as an undead. She is not really a truly "undead" as others. Others experienced true suffering and their Resurrection wasn't easy to deal with, none of them had a peaceful touching by the light transition. And if she already struggles even with her transition to undead, what the original ones could say then? She is truly the only that knows a better transition and can give hope to others, others don't know anything about it and how it feels. Honestly over the course of this thread, i have changed my mind, i don't want Calia to be their leader either and i said this before. I think i don't mind her being around and reedeming the name of Menethil family but to be leader, it's a big huge step to go with and blizzard is going to struggle with this story as much as us players on future events. Kind of a dumb decision and i see that now, i was blind with the wanting to get rid of Sylvanas. And here i am typing alot again. I need to go eat and rest!

[BB8]

Question to crowd: Do you want change?
Crowd: YEEEEESSS!
2nd Question to crowd: Do you want to change?
Crowd is silent…….

Listen people..... change brings chaos, but it also evolving things.
It tells a story and it makes history.
Those that cant follow the evolving itself, will be extinct in the end.

Of course... everyones opinion is valid and you can dislike a change.
Anyway, I would like Calia as new queen of the forsaken. A new beginning.

[sandini]

Even so I do not like Blizzards decision to make Calia the new Forsakens leader, I will cope with it.
But aside from that, is there any news about a new home for the Forsaken?
With Calia there, it is a little disapointing, she cannot back to her old castle in Lorderon because of the plague.

And the Forsaken staying in tents in Orgrimma also is no long time solution. (same for the other stranded races)

[Mehrunes]

Because a leadership structure always consists of a single person acting as an autocrat.

Because I totally said that

Even autocrats have keys to power on which they depend in a hierarchical fashion, and whose support props up their regime. Those keys to power are also leaders - whether they be military generals, economic advisers, or what-have-you.

We're not talking about leadership in military sense here. We're talking about leadership of the entire faction. But hey, you trying to conflate the two is probably the strongest argument you made so far, so that's some progress here.

I would call an ambassador a leadership type role, yes.

Oh, right, I almost forgot about your loose relationship with words meaning things. Thanks for reminding me that this exchange is utterly pointless.

You also know I disagree with your especially narrow focus on who is or isn't Forsaken, so we'll skip that repeat of an old argument.

What's there to argue? The very first quest of Forsaken makes it clear one has to join Forsaken to be a Forsaken. Because that's how membership in anything works. In an "especially narrow focus" way. With Voss further telling the Horde player sent on behalf of the Forsaken to leave her be. And then personally told the player she joined the Horde just now, at the start of BfA (and if she was Forsaken before she'd already have been a member of the Horde as well because that's kinda the political affiliation of the Forsaken). Forsaken isn't a be all, end all term for free willed undead. Otherwise the Ebon Blade would be Forsaken too. Which they explicitly are not. There's no argument here. There's only you being deliberately and willfully wrong.

Well, ye, she got rez by Anduin, S'aara and Alonsus covered and graciously touched by the light as an undead. She is not really a truly "undead" as others. Others experienced true suffering and their Resurrection wasn't easy to deal with, none of them had a peaceful touching by the light transition. And if she already struggles even with her transition to undead, what the original ones could say then? She is truly the only that knows a better transition and can give hope to others, others don't know anything about it and how it feels. Honestly over the course of this thread, i have changed my mind, i don't want Calia to be their leader either and i said this before. I think i don't mind her being around and reedeming the name of Menethil family but to be leader, it's a big huge step to go with and blizzard is going to struggle with this story as much as us players on future events. Kind of a dumb decision and i see that now, i was blind with the wanting to get rid of Sylvanas. And here i am typing alot again. I need to go eat and rest!

We were talking about Voss there...

[Irian]

Do give a source that an Apothecary expedition tasked by Sylvanas with developing the Blight was ordered by her to kill those Druids. Do you seriously think Sylvanas had to give her go ahead on every single thing the Forsaken have ever done? In that case, have fun explaining Edge of Night where Lydon tried to convince Garrosh to let them use the Blight when Sylvanas wasn't even a part of the campaign in Gilneas yet.

The blight ordered by Sylvanas to be produced, to use as a weapon against the living and dead? That one? Yeah it had nothing to do with Sylvanas at all. Unless you believe that I'm trying to imply that Forsaken have no free will, I don't really see how this is at all relevant to what I said.

Of course every single Forsaken has not explicitly asked permission to use blight, that's asinine and pointless to even discuss. Sylvanas however was their literal entire culture, defending her and zealously following her is the identity of the Forsaken.

Aside form multiple Forsaken that left to Argent Dawn or other factions, at least one of who explicitly stated his dislike of Sylvanas' direction as the reason. Or Stillwater. Or Putress and his Apothecaries. Or the Forsaken that defected to the Kirin Tor in Vanilla. Jesus Christ... And two of those examples are people who went beyond Sylvanas in their actions, meshing really well with what you said in the first paragraph.

Until now there has never been a sign of a splinter faction or any group dissent within the Forsaken

Do I really have to spell this out more?

No shit there have been Forsaken defeactors, christ, Lilian - the main Forsaken representative in BfA - is one. The Forsaken are even allowed to leave the moment they're resurrected. Again you just argue from a stance I never said or implied to begin with.

I'm saying there is zero division within the current Forsaken as a faction, and this is almost definitely going to create one. The Forsaken, not the undead, are a faction and they were almost completely unified in their following of Sylvanas until the fiasco that was 8.2.5.

I don't mind them developing, but they could have easily done it without inserting Alliance lapdogs into leadership role of a Horde nation.

In Vanilla there was a quest where it was explained that Forsaken are sinister by 'nature' due the undeath, unable to feel positive emotions. The only joy they had was from inflicting suffering upon others and that Light could make them feel alive before getting overwhelmed by pain soon after. We also know Tauren played a huge role in accepting Forsaken into Horde's ranks because they felt pity and wanted to cure them of their state.

I would rather prefer that Tauren druids find a cure to certain aspects of undeath. It would make a sense now that Sylvanas forsake them and with Baine in charge, it would actually bond them with Horde even more. If the Tauren could make them feel once again it wouldn't sacrifice their identity raising from history, the world wasn't kind to them when they gained a free will.

Instead we will probably get an utopian kingdom of all the raised races led by a lightbound opportunist living forever and after in an undead happy dream.

I would've preferred something like this but since the faction war is clearly going on the backburner I don't feel that bad about it for now.
I can only figure some Forsaken will be reluctant to give up their way of life and Calia's going to have an uphill battle. Asking undead to fight against their nature is not going to sit well with them, unless she has some fancy light bullshit up her sleeve to magic away bad feelings.

I feel more like there's potential for good story, not that there will actually be good story. I mean, this is Blizzard.

[Shakana]

We were talking about Voss there...

Ah, i'm sorry, see i'm tired xD can't even proper reading, even less proper answer. Voss as i said, maybe it was you, voss is here since cata, you even go to her and show her how she looks like on the mirror or something, long time i don't do those quests of undead starter zone, but she is like what am i, what is this i'm horrible and shit and then you can see she refuses to be an undead, but with time she gets better, and now in BfA she is even better.

[Evilfish]

Christ, they really stuck us up the wrong hole with this, didn't even try to buy us dinner first. Yeah, I'm done with this crap. The more I tell myself I need to wait and see what happens next, maybe it gets better, the worse it gets. One patch and we are already bowing to the Alliance. This has Golden written on it.