new forsaken leader spoilers

[Makorus]

Ah, i'm sorry, see i'm tired xD can't even proper reading, even less proper answer. Voss as i said, maybe it was you, voss is here since cata, you even go to her and show her how she looks like on the mirror or something, long time i don't do those quests of undead starter zone, but she is like what am i, what is this i'm horrible and shit and then you can see she refuses to be an undead, but with time she gets better, and now in BfA she is even better.

But she wasn't a part of the Forsaken. She was Undead, sure, but she wasn't part of the Forsaken faction, didn't want anything to do with them and despised them.

[Shakana]

But she wasn't a part of the Forsaken. She was Undead, sure, but she wasn't part of the Forsaken faction, didn't want anything to do with them and despised them.

Yes, true.

[prwraith]

Laying the groundwork for finally getting rid of the retarded faction war. I'm all for this.

[Akibaboy]

Ooooh Nooooo, The Forsaken actually get to grow as a faction and have a new identity outside of its tyrannical ruler? The Horror!!

I don't care if its Voss or Calia, I just want to see the forsaken given a bloody chance to grow outside of the same leader whos been making them follow the same grotesque path since WC3.

Agreed.

In 2004 I was really intrigued by the potential for a series to make an undead faction actually interesting. What does it mean to have crossed over death's door and return with all its horrors fresh in your mind? How can being thrown into the jaws of hatred and persecution from ones you was called brothers and sisters OVERNIGHT affect your ability to interact with the world? In comparison to most fantasy series take of undead being "BOOM! Look how I just pwned the *formerly village doctor*... I mean disgusting corpse. I'm such a badass!", the Forsaken had the potential for so much.

Then we got...
"hehehe hey (Forsaken Adventurer)... hehe, lets collect some diseased bear guts and make humans sick with it lol. Apparently a small faction of humans think we suck so we should probably prove them wrong by killing literally everything"
"Hi! I'm the Banshee Queen. I'm going to do jack-all for 6 years and then kill myself."
"Nevermind I'm back. We're plaguing Gilneas because they're weak, defenseless, and ravaged by disease."

Cool. Yeah the Forsaken are cool.

[Mehrunes]

The blight ordered by Sylvanas to be produced, to use as a weapon against the living and dead? That one? Yeah it had nothing to do with Sylvanas at all. Unless you believe that I'm trying to imply that Forsaken have no free will, I don't really see how this is at all relevant to what I said.

I'm sorry, did I ask about the Blight? No, I asked specifically about the Druids. So how about you answer that instead of moving the goalposts?

No shit there have been Forsaken defeactors, christ, Lilian - the main Forsaken representative in BfA - is one. The Forsaken are even allowed to leave the moment they're resurrected. Again you just argue from a stance I never said or implied to begin with.

Putress had a group of Apothecaries loyal to him. They kinda performed a coup together with Varimathras (previously also affiliated with the Forsaken) and kicked Sylvanas out of Undercity. So I really cannot fathom how you can still maintain that your claim that until now there has never been a splinter faction of group of dissent within the Forsaken is even remotely correct. The thieves of the bloodstones were also a group. Stillwater also had some people loyal to him from what I recall. Desolate Council opposed Sylvanas on the grounds of immortality for the Forsaken and then multiple members tried to defect to the Alliance because they believed Sylvanas wouldn't let another Gathering happen.

I'm saying there is zero division within the current Forsaken as a faction, and this is almost definitely going to create one. The Forsaken, not the undead, are a faction and they were almost completely unified in their following of Sylvanas until the fiasco that was 8.2.5.

And how is it going to do so? Blizzard doesn't even remember that there are non-Voss Forsaken for the most part, so who's going to take opposition to Calia? And why would Blizzard bother writing that when they are obviously devoted to hamfisting the unification across all Horde races no matter how forced it is? The Forsaken will all fawn over Calia because Horde members even thinking a negative thought about their new Alliance overlords is verbotten.

[Flurryfang]

No Shit. Their farewells are "Victory fo Sylvanas" and "Dark Lady watch over you"

No race has been defined more by their leader than the Forsaken.

But then the problems come when you remove the leader. Blizzard have planned this for awhile now and yet have not set up opportunities for the Forsaken race or even make enough Forsaken characters ready to have a dilemma about the future.

Like, they have made it so, that the idea of a totally new character, with close to ZERO interaction with the race, is being set up to be its leader, and yet she is somehow the currently best answer/bet for a leader. Says a lot about how little there work there actually was put in developing the race.

We don't even have any undead aside from Voss to give us a reaction to Sylvanas leaving, noone to express the sudden loss of purpose.

[Mehrunes]

Ah, i'm sorry, see i'm tired xD can't even proper reading, even less proper answer. Voss as i said, maybe it was you, voss is here since cata, you even go to her and show her how she looks like on the mirror or something, long time i don't do those quests of undead starter zone, but she is like what am i, what is this i'm horrible and shit and then you can see she refuses to be an undead, but with time she gets better, and now in BfA she is even better.

I know Voss is a character since Cata. The point is that she wasn't a member Forsaken since Cata since she refused to join them back then and instead only joined in BfA, which she personally confirms on the ship in Dazar'alor.

[Aucald]

Because I totally said that

You certainly implied it, but it's good that you're attempting to backtrack, at least.

We're not talking about leadership in military sense here. We're talking about leadership of the entire faction. But hey, you trying to conflate the two is probably the strongest argument you made so far, so that's some progress here.

I'm talking about leadership in the general sense - being a leader within a given hierarchy, which is something that takes on many forms. This isn't "conflation," it's acceptance of the notion that ideas, in general, aren't necessarily confined to singular instances. I understand this can be confusing - it's far too easy to complain about meaningless semantics than actually arrive at workable solutions. We could bandy about semantics all day, but actually coming to a conclusion? Well, that would mean the fighting would end, and we can't have that.

Oh, right, I almost forgot about your loose relationship with words meaning things. Thanks for reminding me that this exchange is utterly pointless.

You mean the idea that a nationality or group identity is more than blind loyalty toward a single given leader figure? Sure, you could call that "loose." I call it "functional," but again, this exchange is utterly pointless.

What's there to argue? The very first quest of Forsaken makes it clear one has to join Forsaken to be a Forsaken. Because that's how membership in anything works. In an "especially narrow focus" way. With Voss further telling the Horde player sent on behalf of the Forsaken to leave her be. And then personally told the player she joined the Horde just now, at the start of BfA (and if she was Forsaken before she'd already have been a member of the Horde as well because that's kinda the political affiliation of the Forsaken). Forsaken isn't a be all, end all term for free willed undead. Otherwise the Ebon Blade would be Forsaken too. Which they explicitly are not. There's no argument here. There's only you being deliberately and willfully wrong.

Ah yes, because a single quest completely and absolutely encapsulates what it is to be Forsaken - that's it. Never mind the entire group of people inducted into being Forsaken at their formation back in WC3, they obviously got grandfathered in through that quest. Never mind the countless Forsaken raised by the Val'kyr afterward, who to my knowledge never went through the Deathknell zone to pick up the quest, they're out too, I guess. Never mind that Sylvanas considered Voss a Forsaken when she raised her in Cata, and was content to wait for Voss to arrive at that knowledge herself, in due time. Now perhaps we can return to the actual subject at hand as opposed to this pointless and irrelevant trip down the memory lane of past debates.

[Thage]

To be fair, the Forsaken 'identity' was always built strongly around Sylvanas's cult of personality. Hopefully, even with Calia at the helm, most Forsaken remain more morally-grey like Lillian Voss. Perhaps not necessarily, "experimenting on captive POWs to maximize the results of a highly-virulent plague" levels of obviously-evil, but a racial predilection toward R&D of questionable ethics and spywork/assassination coming naturally to them.

[Wangming]

But then the problems come when you remove the leader. Blizzard have planned this for awhile now and yet have not set up opportunities for the Forsaken race or even make enough Forsaken characters ready to have a dilemma about the future.

Like, they have made it so, that the idea of a totally new character, with close to ZERO interaction with the race, is being set up to be its leader, and yet she is somehow the currently best answer/bet for a leader. Says a lot about how little there work there actually was put in developing the race.

We don't even have any undead aside from Voss to give us a reaction to Sylvanas leaving, noone to express the sudden loss of purpose.

They need to replace voice files with something new like: "Fuck are we to do now?" "Go find Sylvanas" or "I would like to go back to the Lich King now please"

[Mehrunes]

To be fair, the Forsaken 'identity' was always built strongly around Sylvanas's cult of personality. Hopefully, even with Calia at the helm, most Forsaken remain more morally-grey like Lillian Voss. Perhaps not necessarily, "experimenting on captive POWs to maximize the results of a highly-virulent plague" levels of obviously-evil, but a racial predilection toward R&D of questionable ethics and spywork/assassination coming naturally to them.

Hope is certainly one thing that Blizzard does not deserve.

[Trassk]

Hope is certainly one thing that Blizzard does not deserve.

That isn't how hope works in this context.

[GreenJesus]

Hope is certainly one thing that Blizzard does not deserve.

Blizzard CAN kill hope.

[Flurryfang]

They need to replace voice files with something new like: "Fuck are we to do now?" "Go find Sylvanas" or "I would like to go back to the Lich King now please"

Hehe xD You know what, i would not mind all of those xD We just need some undead to loudly proclaim "I don't know what to do now!!!"

[Irian]

I'm sorry, did I ask about the Blight? No, I asked specifically about the Druids. So how about you answer that instead of moving the goalposts?

I'm not moving the goalposts, I'm telling you it's pretty much irrelevant to the conversation. I was never arguing that the Forsaken didn't sometimes act on their own to inflict harm and kill based on their own personal whims and desires.

Putress had a group of Apothecaries loyal to him. They kinda performed a coup together with Varimathras (previously also affiliated with the Forsaken) and kicked Sylvanas out of Undercity. So I really cannot fathom how you can still maintain that your claim that until now there has never been a splinter faction of group of dissent within the Forsaken is even remotely correct. The thieves of the bloodstones were also a group. Stillwater also had some people loyal to him from what I recall. Desolate Council opposed Sylvanas on the grounds of immortality for the Forsaken and then multiple members tried to defect to the Alliance because they believed Sylvanas wouldn't let another Gathering happen.

Yes and I loved both of those incidents, they are probably my favorite Forsaken moments in lore.

But both groups were wiped out or suppressed at the end of those stories. That's exactly what I'm saying, and why I don't think Calia being the leader is necessarily an immediate bad thing. There's a huge difference between the way she acts, looks and behaves and the rest of the Forsaken, and I feel like that's going to be a story point if they have even a lick of sense.

And how is it going to do so? Blizzard doesn't even remember that there are non-Voss Forsaken for the most part, so who's going to take opposition to Calia? And why would Blizzard bother writing that when they are obviously devoted to hamfisting the unification across all Horde races no matter how forced it is? The Forsaken will all fawn over Calia because Horde members even thinking a negative thought about their new Alliance overlords is verbotten.

It's a possibility, sure. But I'm personally reserving judgment for when it actually happens.

People are knee-jerk reacting negatively to this under the assumption that the Forsaken will just fall in line, but I don't really think that's likely. Most of them were fanatically devoted to Sylvanas, and without her they're confused and purposeless. If there isn't some kind of cultural shift then holy shit are they going to miss a huge mark.

[StillMcfuu]

1. Our leader drank the blood and so did we, but we'll put it all on the scapegoat leader.
2. Our leader went racist and insane and we backed him and produced a weapon of mass destruction, tested it on innocent students then bombed a city. But it was all HIS idea.
3. Our leader got her panties in a bunch over the word hope and ordered the burning of a city and our other "leader" followed through with the order. But we just wanted to believe in her, she made us do it.

The Alliance: Ok we'll just give you a slap on the wrist and tell you, don't do it again or you'll for sure get a timeout next time.

None of this has anything to do with the thread/question at hand, what's your point?

[GreenJesus]

I really hope the more evil sided forsaken stage a coup and kill off Calia. The forsaken all falling in line with Calia would be complete bullshit. An Anduin self-insert has no place in the Forsaken. For the Dark Lady! Blizzard writing Sylvanas out of the forsaken is just Golden fanfiction and didn't happen.

[Fullmetal89]

Blizzard CAN kill hope.

Blizzard was Sylvanas all along. At last, I truly see now.

[Highelf]

None of this has anything to do with the thread/question at hand, what's your point?

You asked me to elaborate and I did using actual examples. That's the point.

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Christ, they really stuck us up the wrong hole with this, didn't even try to buy us dinner first. Yeah, I'm done with this crap. The more I tell myself I need to wait and see what happens next, maybe it gets better, the worse it gets. One patch and we are already bowing to the Alliance. This has Golden written on it.

Now you know what it's like to be a Night Elf for all these years. At least they're giving you a redemption arc after the victim card got played. Night elves got cool dark eyes man...Justice for all.

[StillMcfuu]

You asked me to elaborate and I did using actual examples. That's the point.

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Now you know what it's like to be a Night Elf for all these years. At least they're giving you a redemption arc after the victim card got played. Night elves got cool dark eyes man...Justice for all.

No, all that crap you said has nothing to do with the Forsaken leader or my post. It's irrelevant.