Any ideas on what may replace Titanforging?

[SirCowdog]

The one good thing about this (and I don't mean to argue for titanforging in general) is how easy it is to get back into cutting edge content nowadays. Right now any casual player can keep up with the gear curve, by just doing one weekly +10 key (plus may be weekly HC clear, or weekly arena cap, depending on what floats your boat). That allows you to jump straight into the middle of the mythic raid progression, or into pushing high keys mid-season.

That would not be possible with time-gated systems like Valor Point upgrades.

That also has the drawback of making the existing content last much much less time. For a long time now Blizzard has been so laser focused on ONLY the most recent patch's content, that they virtually abandon everything else. What's the point of investing in progressing if you know for a fact that literally everything you do now will be largely invalidated in a couple months? Or in the case of TF, in a couple of random procs?

That's something that I think is sorely missing from modern wow. It used to be there was a more or less clear path of progression for you to work at. Now? It's just do whatever the hell you want randomly, and hope that you get lucky. The is what TF embodies.

[Malikath]

That also has the drawback of making the existing content last much much less time. For a long time now Blizzard has been so laser focused on ONLY the most recent patch's content, that they virtually abandon everything else. What's the point of investing in progressing if you know for a fact that literally everything you do now will be largely invalidated in a couple months? Or in the case of TF, in a couple of random procs?

That's something that I think is sorely missing from modern wow. It used to be there was a more or less clear path of progression for you to work at. Now? It's just do whatever the hell you want randomly, and hope that you get lucky. The is what TF embodies.

which has provably reduced the games ability to retain players, the older model retained players at a rate that the game only grew during the expansion eras designed under the previous paradigm.

[SirCowdog]

That's a big "may" I'd say, a TF in normal can beat mythic base drop by 5ilvl, and then you would have to account for if that even is the right piece you need.
After all of that, let say you get the 450 BiS trinket, would you just not doing the whole raid because of that 1 boss you dont need anything? Kind of counter the notion of progression raiding...
TF is not bad, it's a scape goat for people who burn out from the game to drop their bitching on, you dont farm thr TF, it's not made for that. You still have your list of BiS that you can find on any guide, raid drop still being BiS in many cases, I'm still screaming when that Razor coral drop in M Ashvane for me. Nothing changes, just people being burnt out from the game that refuse to take a break.

I think you missed the point I was making. It's not that you're going to just avoid the next raid entirely. But if you get a TF of a BiS item in heroic that makes it better than the non-TF drop in mythic, that's one less piece of gear that you have to look forward to dropping.

It's not that TF makes the entire raid not worth doing. But it does detract from the value of doing it unless you just happen to have lightning strike twice, and you get a TF version of the exact same item, only mythic instead of heroic.

Gear progression and acquirement are at the very heart of WoW. It's always been that way. It's one of the foundations that the game is built on. TF weakens that foundation by muddying the path of progression and turning it into an even worse slot machine than before. Keep in mind, however, that it's only one thing among many that has been changed over the years. It's not JUST Titanforging that's the problem. It's TF + Personal loot +not being able to add sockets + fewer enchant slots + the removal of reforging + the removal of upgrading + the removal of tokens.

Virtually every way in which a player can determine or plan their path of progress has been removed or severely curtailed, and replaced with completely random factors out of player control. There's been some slight improvements in the form of benthic gear, to be sure. But it's giving an inch while taking a mile.

[scarletanh]

That also has the drawback of making the existing content last much much less time. For a long time now Blizzard has been so laser focused on ONLY the most recent patch's content, that they virtually abandon everything else. What's the point of investing in progressing if you know for a fact that literally everything you do now will be largely invalidated in a couple months? Or in the case of TF, in a couple of random procs?

That's something that I think is sorely missing from modern wow. It used to be there was a more or less clear path of progression for you to work at. Now? It's just do whatever the hell you want randomly, and hope that you get lucky. The is what TF embodies.

Either you play a game with no future expansion or a game that take 10 years to release new patch, you gear is deemed to be inferior to the next patch tier, that's what progression mean, nothing more than a glorified grind which what MMORPG is all about. In case of TF, if you have the luck required to maxed out 16 slot of gear with TF, I think you should just quit the game a go do some lottery or investing stocks.

Idk how it is different from the past when you can literally find any guide for the list of item you gonna want to get, work toward that dungeon/raid boss. How is it different from the past may you care further explain?

[huth]

I don't think you understand what the word "Deterministic" means. TF is completely random. Players have ZERO control over it. And this lack of control is further exacerbated by being forced to use Personal loot, the removal of the ability to add sockets. The reduced ability to enchant. The removal of reforging. The removal of upgrading. The removal of tokens.

Deterministic does not mean that you have any control over it. In fact, in a fully deterministic system, you'd have no control at all.

[scarletanh]

I think you missed the point I was making. It's not that you're going to just avoid the next raid entirely. But if you get a TF of a BiS item in heroic that makes it better than the non-TF drop in mythic, that's one less piece of gear that you have to look forward to dropping.

It's not that TF makes the entire raid not worth doing. But it does detract from the value of doing it unless you just happen to have lightning strike twice, and you get a TF version of the exact same item, only mythic instead of heroic.

Gear progression and acquirement are at the very heart of WoW. It's always been that way. It's one of the foundations that the game is built on. TF weakens that foundation by muddying the path of progression and turning it into an even worse slot machine than before. Keep in mind, however, that it's only one thing among many that has been changed over the years. It's not JUST Titanforging that's the problem. It's TF + Personal loot +not being able to add sockets + fewer enchant slots + the removal of reforging + the removal of upgrading + the removal of tokens.

Virtually every way in which a player can determine or plan their path of progress has been removed or severely curtailed, and replaced with completely random factors out of player control. There's been some slight improvements in the form of benthic gear, to be sure. But it's giving an inch while taking a mile.

Again, with that TF drop, it's 1 in 16 slot you gonna get, if you feel mythic is less valuable because of it, you are burnt out, no meme/trolls, I really meant it. Most people I know trying to prog Mythic not really because of that gear, it's a nice incentive, but rather a sense of accomplishment, the final challenge of the game itself.
As I said before, the list of BiS item for your character is still out there, hell, you even have raidbot nowaday to determine what is the best, you have a clearer goal of what you want rather than a pool of forgettable items. Azerite vendor is out there, you can save and work toward it, raid boss is out there for you to clear and get the pieces; you can run any dungeon any number of times till you can get the gear you want. Though I would strongly agree with your point on removal of tokens, but for other removal, it was made to simplified the gear system, which, depends on how you view it, is neither good or bad design, I'll just say it work with current playstyle of the game.
The game has always been RNG based since vanilla, you get in a dungeon/raid, you either get the piece you want or none, the only fix to that system was token from WotLK, and yea, it was a shame that they removed it, other than that, same as always

[Rendark]

They will remove titanforging and replace it with something worse.

[Th3Scourge]

I'd rather a random system like we have no than a benthic-style upgrade system. I'm so over farming pearls

[ID811717]

which has provably reduced the games ability to retain players, the older model retained players at a rate that the game only grew during the expansion eras designed under the previous paradigm.

I don't see a clear argument that titanforging hurts the player retention.
Looking at the past 3 years, the current gear system actually succeeds to retain me instead of letting me quit. I tend to go all in and play hardcore, then eventually burn out. There would be no reason for me to play unless I'm fully invested. But the ridiculous gear system allows me to hibernate for some time, maintaining good gear with a couple of hours played per week (it helps having the social network with people who know I can pull my weight in HC clears and +15-20 keys even if I log once per week). Coming back after a break straight into cutting edge is very easy (mostly due to M+ weekly chests, but you get titanforges from any content you do).

[SirCowdog]

The game has always been RNG based since vanilla, you get in a dungeon/raid, you either get the piece you want or none, the only fix to that system was token from WotLK, and yea, it was a shame that they removed it, other than that, same as always

It wasn't JUST the token that was removed, though. Twice now I've listed all the ways that things which allowed players to have more deterministic progression have been removed from from the game. I also already conceded that some amount of RNG will always be present in WoW. The problem is that in the current environment, there's just TOO MUCH randomness.

[Sevarin]

i hate warforge, titanforge, and random sockets. id love to see them gone.

[Malikath]

Deterministic does not mean that you have any control over it. In fact, in a fully deterministic system, you'd have no control at all.

it also doesn't mean random, which TF factually is.
further more to your second baseless assertion, no it doesn't. crafting has been for a long time an entirely deterministic means of upgrading gear, same with badges.
go spout your inane bullshit elsewhere.

[f4ncybear]

Voidtwisting of course, now a piece can get ilvls or lose ilvls.

[Malikath]

I don't see a clear argument that titanforging hurts the player retention.

maybe you should read the prior posts, as you've clearly failed to understand context.
the topic of discussion was specifically talking about catch-up mechanics, which titanforging wasn't intended to be but an endgame+ reward mechanic.

instead catch-up systems began in the mid-way of wrath with ToGC and were standardized in cataclysm, the game's first expansion to ONLY lose subscriptions entirely throughout it's lifetime.
before the game's community acted as the game's sole means of rapidly progressing characters through content tiers, with mount runs acting as a means of incentivizing players who've progressed beyond that content to repeat it for the benefit of newer players.
this benefited the game by turning older raids into community building exercises.

[scarletanh]

It wasn't JUST the token that was removed, though. Twice now I've listed all the ways that things which allowed players to have more deterministic progression have been removed from from the game. I also already conceded that some amount of RNG will always be present in WoW. The problem is that in the current environment, there's just TOO MUCH randomness.

TF + Personal loot +not being able to add sockets + fewer enchant slots + the removal of reforging + the removal of upgrading

- TF - since you decide to moved on from this point, I'm not gonna repeating myself as I have in the last 2 posts

- Personal loot, this doesnt increase the randomness of item drop, even with old loot system, the item you want could drop or not, same as now. The only different is how the loot is distributed, I would even argue that with this PL system, there's even more chance for you to get the piece you want if someone in your raid doenst need it.

- Socket, ah yes, the only thing that I agree on the unnecessary randomness.

- Fewer enchant slot, with the simplified stat system, you actually dont need more enchant slots, if anything it could only inflate stat, going against the point of stat squish and gear simplified. Also, nothing involved with randomness over this?

- Removal of reforging, gear simplified, no bunch of cluster fck stat, and what the point of wasting another layer of gear progress when people just gonna reforge to a preset stat? So they add that preset stat to current gear and rid of that extra step, I see no problem with this.

- Removal of upgrading, not sure what you mean by this

All in all, with your list, randomness happened in socket, I wouldnt call that "too much", again, that just me, if you feel socket is too much randomness compared to old drop system then you do you.

[FlubberPuddy]

But benthic gear has a lot of drama attached to it also.
Gem procs? Anyone?

Wasn't it that before Blacksmiths could add sockets to certain pieces of gear?

I wish they made professions back like how they used to. Enchanters being able to enchant many pieces of gear.

Somewhere along the line Blizzard seems to have balanced around having enchants/gems/food/pots when before they just feel like a bonus if you can have them.

I wish professions besides Alchemy/Ench stayed relevant tier after tier. Dislike how you can only make a few pieces of gear for BS/Tailor/LW instead of whole sets with their unique set bonuses.

Hope the new system lets professions be relevant again.

[Axaion]

Maybe ChinaForging?

[legendaryusername]

Casuals defending their free bis loot casino machine .. :s

Titanforging is a disease

[SirCowdog]

- TF - since you decide to moved on from this point, I'm not gonna repeating myself as I have in the last 2 posts

There are two very clear camps in regards to TF, and while I'm at least willing to admit that it has some benefits, I'm not convinced that those benefits outweigh the drawbacks. However, there are clearly some people involved in the argument that aren't willing to even admit the other side has valid points, and resorts to namecalling or dismissive attitudes.

But I think we've beaten that horse enough as it is, so I'm ok with moving on.

- Personal loot, this doesnt increase the randomness of item drop, even with old loot system, the item you want could drop or not, same as now. The only different is how the loot is distributed, I would even argue that with this PL system, there's even more chance for you to get the piece you want if someone in your raid doenst need it.

The point I'm concerned with is that responsible groups of players interested in putting the good of the group ahead of their own personal drops no longer have that option. Again, this is another example of removing player agency in favor of RNG.

I would like to hear the argument about getting a piece you want if someone else in the raid can't use it, though. I don't think the math will hold that up as a very high chance.

- Fewer enchant slot, with the simplified stat system, you actually dont need more enchant slots, if anything it could only inflate stat, going against the point of stat squish and gear simplified. Also, nothing involved with randomness over this?

The point of fewer potential enchant slots was about Blizzard removing the ability of the player to customize their stat allocation. Again, this goes to the continued theme of removing player agency. And I don't believe that simply removing everything is a good solution. The current gear system is VERY over-simplified.

- Removal of reforging, gear simplified, no bunch of cluster fck stat, and what the point of wasting another layer of gear progress when people just gonna reforge to a preset stat? So they add that preset stat to current gear and rid of that extra step, I see no problem with this.

IMHO the problem with reforging was that every spec had only one optimal stat to focus on. The issue was not with reforging itself, or even the "cluster fkc stat". It was with the lack of build variety within each class. Simply removing all options and giving players only a single build is technically a solution, but it removes a LOT of the RPG aspect from the game.

WoW is a game of numbers. Builds. Comps. Strategies. If all Blizzard ever does is remove everything associated with a problem, the game dumbs further and further down. Until we reach a point like with BfA where the culling of stats and abilities has gone too far.

- Removal of upgrading, not sure what you mean by this

Gear used to have the ability to upgrade its item level by investing valor points. This was a system in place to help mitigate if you didn't get any upgrades dropping for you.


Overall my point was to show all the little things that have been removed, further limiting the players' ability to customize their playstyle and build, or even the way in which loot is distributed. Each tiny step seems insignificant on its own, but when you look at the long list of things that have been taken away from players without having anything replaced, it paints a powerful picture that players who are only focusing on one thing won't notice.

[ID811717]

instead catch-up systems began in the mid-way of wrath with ToGC and were standardized in cataclysm, the game's first expansion to ONLY lose subscriptions entirely throughout it's lifetime.

I was one of the subscriptions that was lost in Cataclysm (for a long time). Gear catch-up had nothing to do with me quitting, just burnout after very intense play in TBC and Wrath. Everyone has their own story, you can not generalize and simplify it to blame one aspect of the huge game.

before the game's community acted as the game's sole means of rapidly progressing characters through content tiers, with mount runs acting as a means of incentivizing players who've progressed beyond that content to repeat it for the benefit of newer players.
this benefited the game by turning older raids into community building exercises.

Ever since attunements were removed in TBC, honestly I don't remember a single time any of my guilds put organized effort into running old raids. Besides putting in effort to get titles like Undying, Immortal and Herald of the Titans right before they were removed (and yes, everyone thought Herald of the Titans was going to be removed). As far as the raiding scene is concerned, I remember no difference between current raid tier and, say, Ulduar raid tier. If anything, the first half of Legion was much different from both Wrath and BfA because people actually went back to stomp old content regularly for the sole purpose of legendary farm.

The raid pug scene was being born in Wrath, but that was hardly a "community building" type of exercise.