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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    To cope? Oh please. The Forsaken have been coping with undeath for 20 years or more. And having some light infused abomination telling the forsaken how to cope with the ugly from of undeath they suffer from is like having someone with mild cold help someone with a terminal disease cope with it. Calia is wrong for the Forsaken start to finish.
    Not all forsaken are from the original batch during Frozen Throne. So not all of them have been at this for over a decade. I don't have a problem with it as an option, as something some forsaken do, but if their plan is to tie up the whole forsaken identity in this then that will be a problem.

  2. #462
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Can I ask why Belmont or Lydon? Why a Deathstalker instead of a Deathguard and why Lydon instead of Faranell?
    In regards to Belmont, chances are a spy like a Deathstalker would have more political clout than a soldier like a Deathguard. If you want military, an Executioner would be a better choice since they seem to have some administrative tasks as well. In regards to Apothecaries an argument could be made for Faranell of course, but he seems focused on science while Lydon showed some penchant for politics.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Another concern with Calia as Forsaken leader is that if we have an expansion about Sylvanas it is very likely that we will see Calia be the opposing force and not the Forsaken as a people. Calia has her own story arc that is clearly separate than the arc of the Forsaken so placing her at the front would do much the same that having Sylvanas did; place the leader's story in front and leave the race behind.
    That is another good argument against Calia. Especially since having actual Forsaken not be there for a confrontation with Sylvanas would be like not having Sylvanas during the final confrontation with Arthas (so, obviously what will happen).


    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Plus Calia very likely will have a villain arc. She is a perfect fit for Il'gynoth's new prophecy, she is a perfect fit for the Light working with the enemy of all. Do we really want to give the Forsaken ANOTHER leader who drags the race with them in villain territory?
    Or Blizzard will simply forget about it because they won't touch a female Anduin.
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    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
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    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  3. #463
    Quote Originally Posted by Bright-Flower View Post
    Not all forsaken are from the original batch during Frozen Throne. So not all of them have been at this for over a decade. I don't have a problem with it as an option, as something some forsaken do, but if their plan is to tie up the whole forsaken identity in this then that will be a problem.
    It does not matter when they were turned undead, the fact is that the Forsaken and Calia are two different types of undead, one kept alive by dark magic, having to deal with decay and other insanity inducing issues, while Calia does not have to deal with shit.

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by Godric View Post
    Agreed. I know people like their Forsaken themes but they can still have them, just forget that you have your rightful heir to the throne reinstated. Everything about Calia coming back and leading her people out of the rat-holes makes sense.
    And once again non Forsaken fans are trying to tell them what to do how to behave and what to feel like. Never change Alliance community. Never change. You are doing a great job at exposing yourself.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    It does not matter when they were turned undead, the fact is that the Forsaken and Calia are two different types of undead, one kept alive by dark magic, having to deal with decay and other insanity inducing issues, while Calia does not have to deal with shit.
    This. Light forgiveness has nothing to do with the Forsaken theme. The Light forsake them first. Which is why they went towards the shadows. Calia is the anti thesis of what it means to be forsaken.

  5. #465
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    Reasonably the Forsaken should react to this news like:
    Old Lordaeron Citizens: "Why would we want the daughter of the King who wasn't concerned with the Cult of the Damned wrecking havoc on our lands, the sister of the King who slaughtered us, assisted the Legion and raised us into thralls of undeath in the first place and the Princess who ran when her people needed her to lead us?"
    New Lordaeron Citizens: "Who is this sparkly woman that has no relation to us?"
    Elune: "My sister needed Anima so I let my favoured people die. What is this 'Maw' you speak of?"
    Daily reminder that Steam has never had a monopoly on PC Gaming, don't mistake age and popularity for domination.
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  6. #466
    Why do so many players in this thread look affectionately on “the rightful heir” dynastic story? What is appealing about that?

  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    How would you like it if the draenai got Saurfang as their racial leader? She is clearly an alliance character that is friends with Anduin and knows absolutely nothing about the forsaken. She was never part of the Horde. She can go fucking kill herself.
    Good, cool. A leader that has some history and is not absent whole expansions. And did you even read. I said in short: They got some new leaders. They get 2 new leaders, 1 with a new model and both have back story. Could be worse. They could be without all of that. Like we alliance always get.
    40+ horse mounts and counting right now :P

    And .....she is already dead?....super undead?

  8. #468
    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    Maybe I'm the only one, but I have the feelings Calia will never lead the forsaken as a Horde leader, but instead as an Alliance one.

    This is how things will work :

    She will try to rule over all the forsakens and unite them under a single banner but will be eventually dethroned by either Sylvanas, her loyalists, or the forsaken who made life their ennemy.

    She will then seek the Alliance protection for all those who followed her, thus bringing the Lightforged into the Alliance.


    Calia is first mentionned by Jaina in Stormwind. Then first introduced in Kul'Tiras during an Alliance epilogue. Then again Alliance players are present when she tells Jaina why she's leaving Kul'Tiras.

    If Blizzard wanted her to be a Horde ruler, things would have been different.
    I agree, I think it’s more likely she’s being set up to lead an Alliance AR after being utterly rejected by majority of the Horde Forsaken. Wouldn’t be surprised to see Sylvanas back either. Seems like a lot of misdirection going on with her storyline.

  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by baskev View Post
    Good, cool. A leader that has some history and is not absent whole expansions. And did you even read. I said in short: They got some new leaders. They get 2 new leaders, 1 with a new model and both have back story. Could be worse. They could be without all of that. Like we alliance always get.
    40+ horse mounts and counting right now :P

    And .....she is already dead?....super undead?
    So you think Draenai would be fine with an orc that bathed in the blood of draenai children to be their leader? Although mot as bad as saurfang is to the draenai its same idea with calia being leader of forsaken. It's an insult.

  10. #470
    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    So...... I think this entire script, plus what we know in-game, makes it very clear, that all of the identity of the Forsaken was put on Sylvanas. Remove her and the Forsaken is without any identity or purpose.

    Its kinda sad to see an entire race just be left in such a state, where they have NO personality left.
    They were always like that. Forsaken have a worse cult of personality that Putin or pooh bear Jinping
    Cheerful lack of self-preservation

  11. #471
    Fuck this and fuck Blizzard too.

  12. #472
    The original foresaken story: the people of Lordaeron killed and turned into mindless zombies with some aspect of the mind and soul tagging along as minions of the Lich King. Their decomposing bodies and rotting flesh the sign of the power of Nerzhul to use death magic as a weapon for the Legion. Some of these zombie minions of the Legion were able to regain control over their rotting zombie corpses and were "cursed" to walk the earth as rotting sacks of flesh for eternity (for some not really well defined reason) even after the defeat of the Lich King. The ultimate leader of the foresaken was an elven archer who too was cursed and turned into a zombie but albeit with a body that was more well preserved. The name foresaken came from the fact that they are still viewed as monsters and abominations even by their kith and kin and cannot simply reunite with them nor perish into shadowlands......

    The whole idea of foresaken are zombie corpses with their original minds and souls attached who cannot ever simply die as they should..... and people view them as monsters no matter what.

    Then you have the idea of light forged undead... who were never used as weapons by the legion. They never were killed en masse specifically to provide more masses of zombies to attack the living and really have no side effects of being in decomposing corpses. It is more like a glorified ressurection spell of the light. ANd therefore not seen as monsters or outcasts by anyone. Those seem to be two completely different and opposing themes altogether.....

    And really being an "undead" player character at this point is simply a cosmetic option with no real justification and has been since the Lich King was defeated.
    All undead should have simply dropped into piles of decomposing flesh where they stood.

  13. #473
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I think that's being a bit too hard on Calia specifically as she has no idea what Voss' more recent history is as concerns her family, and probably most of the Forsaken don't either. I also doubt Voss took this as condescension from Calia, either; her father was probably once a good person himself - before the Third War and Balnazzar's effect on the Scarlet Crusade as a whole.
    Isn't this part of the problem though? Even in passing conversation, Calia reveals her ignorance of what the Forsaken have gone through, of the full extent of the jarring discontinuity between the past life and present undeath. It shouldn't be easy for the Forsaken to embrace a leader who sees them only through the lens of what they once were, rather than understanding what they have become, especially since it touches on very painful memories. This is exactly why choosing a Forsaken leader that has never experienced any of this is an issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    But speaking to that, I can see many ways in which Calia's separation from the Forsaken is actually a good thing, she isn't mired in their traditional ways of thinking and represents an alternative position and outcome, to a degree. Outside observers bring in new perspectives, and the Forsaken specifically are kind of in dire need of new perspectives given their current plight. My main issue is that I don't think Calia personally is really leader material - she would be much better in a support or supplementary role to a more pragmatic or moderate leader (like Voss herself). That's why I could see Voss and Calia in a more shared role, with Calia as a spiritual leader to the Forsaken whereas Voss is the temporal leader - contrasted to Sylvanas who basically represented both aspects in a manner such that they mirrored one another. Derek might also serve in that role as opposed to Voss, but there I would think Derek's outsider status would be a deeper detriment than Calia's outsider status would be in a more ministerial role.

    For a temporal leader, yes, I would agree - as mentioned above. Belmont is probably a bit too hard-line for the role, though I could see Lydon working out (depending on his reaction to Sylvanas' departure). The Forsaken kind of need a new spiritual leader with the loss of Sylvanas, and Calia I think would be a largely more beneficent one, one more in keeping with the general spiritual ethos of the Horde as well. If Calia ascends to the leadership of the Forsaken without some kind of light "council" element added to the role I'd chalk it up to an error on the part on the writers as well - I think she needs the touch of a character like Voss or Lydon to succeed in the role regardless of whether she becomes "Queen of the Forsaken" or just becomes their spiritual leader of some kind. Derek isn't going to work as a temporal leader of the Forsaken himself, and he's both too new and too distant from the old guard Forsaken to successfully serve in the same role Voss or Lydon would.
    I can see Calia spiritually leading a small sub-group of penitential Forsaken, wielding the Light through sheer force of will akin to the post-Balnazzar Scarlet Crusade as Dickmann said. However making Calia the spiritual leader of all the Forsaken would be a very destructive mistake in terms of Forsaken lore.
    It's important to remember that Sylvanas was never the "spiritual leader" of the Forsaken- that niche was filled by the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow. While I know a lot of their lore seems to have fallen by the wayside recently, there's still enough in the vanilla quests (which AFAIK are still canon) to reaffirm the importance of their central tenant: namely that the Forsaken are sustained by their willpower alone and the main spiritual goal of a Forsaken is to impose his will upon the world. This is the polar opposite of Calia's spirituality predicated on blind submission to the Light (the very power that abandoned them to their fate) and seeking to better others. Making Calia spiritual leader of the Forsaken would remove an important part of what little non-Sylvanas lore they have left, and further hollow out their culture into nothing more than mindless imitators of whoever happens to be in power.

  14. #474
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Alternative positions are of value when they still originate from somewhere close to the same point. When there's no common frame of reference, and there isn't save for both being at some point citizens of Lordaeron, then it's just an out of place outside element. Calia does not occupy the same context as the Forsaken nor does she have any link to it. That comment, which of course goes unmentioned while Voss and the PC's internal monologue in the quest text gushes about Calia's honor is unintentionally demonstrative of this. Calia presumably remembers a nice priest dude, but the one we know is the one who abused his daughter into being a living weapon against his enemies and then tried to kill her because she turned undead. Voss had to struggle to get where she is now and experienced the same thing as the Forsaken did, and got better as well - ergo, she has the perspective to help others. Calia doesn't. It's even more farcical when she's talking to Delaryn because with Delaryn even the Lordaeron aspect is gone - why in the hell would an undead night elf seek solace in a Holy Light-themed human queen, one that she most likely didn't even know existed until five minutes ago. Derek fits better than Calia because his experiences were at least for a few weeks close to what regular Forsaken experienced as agents of the Lich King. They don't fit from any point after since he wasn't Forsaken, he can go around Boralus just fine and his sister loves him and he's spent the war dicking around in a cottage with his love interest before the divine right triggered and they decided to save those poor victims.
    Context is seldom singular, and while Calia doesn't share some aspects of it with the Forsaken she does share in others - she's of Lordaeron, she knows the people from their living days, she shares in their fervor for Lordaeronian identity, and she's part of their heritage. I think the focus on Voss itself is somewhat illuminating, because I myself never knew Voss' father was once just a simple and seemingly well-liked Priest. That, too, is as equally a part of Lilian's history as her later treatment by Benedictus. Calia focuses on and has knowledge of the more positive aspect of the man who would later turn his own daughter into a living weapon for the Scarlet Crusade. As for Delayrn, she seems to know that Calia is somehow able to help Forsaken deal with the agonies of adapting to their new state, as she did with Derek (who is also not Lordaeronian) - this seems to be an ability that's not intrinsic to her heritage but more one related to her being a Priestess or possibly one related to what kind of undead being she is. Word of Calia's ability seems to have spread (probably due to Voss herself promulgating it).

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Calia is spiritually alien to the Forsaken. The very first undead priest quest explains to you that its the will of the Forsaken, self-reliance and self-actualization that are the core virtues of the Forgotten Shadow and of the Forsaken. Calia is of the Light, the same force that forsook the Forsaken and that burns them at a touch, but doesn't burn her. Her spirit is whole and she chose this fate, they didn't. She isn't even an idealized version of them the way the Dark Rangers or Sylvanas were, since they can't even aspire to be what she is or put themselves in her shoes. The only way Calia works as a spiritual leader is if they go all out - they are lemmings without someone to make decisions for them and through Calia decide to repent for what they did, committing themselves to the things that previously harmed them but seeing that as a penance-like suffering. I.e, turn them more Scarlet Crusade. But that Calia is sought out by the Forsaken because they are lost without her and that the one other candidate the expansion is falling over herself to praise her has already done uncountable damage to the one actual progression the Forsaken have had, that is distancing themselves from the personality cult and adopting their own identity.
    Calia is an outsider, definitely, but she's not completely alien and the Light is still a known concept and philosophy among the Forsaken (with some of them even cleaving to it despite their undead state). I would also say there's no need for Calia to step into the cult of personality that Sylvanas once occupied - and I definitely think it would be better for the Forsaken as a whole if she didn't do that. Better for each Forsaken to come to their own internal balance in their own way, which Calia seems to have some skill in helping Forsaken achieve (e.g. Derek). That being said, Calia is pretty from far from Sylvanas personality-wise, so it seems very unlikely she'd step into that role on her own for any reason. She could be forced into by desperate Forsaken, but she'd be ill-suited to it - which could of course make for a dramatic arc all on its own.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  15. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    It's almost like appointing a leader who has zero similar qualities with the race she want's to "lead" is a bad idea.

    a random goose is as good a leader for the Forsaken as Calia is, hell it may actually be better.
    As a Horde player, she is the rightful heir to the Kingdom of Lordaeron so I welcome her.
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  16. #476
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    As a Horde player, she is the rightful heir to the Kingdom of Lordaeron so I welcome her.
    As a Horde player, she is an alliance usurper, who has no business with our faction of a long dead kingdom and should go away asap. The Forsaken should be allowed to rule themselfs and not outdated, human, lightforged monarchs, who just appeared out of nowhere.

  17. #477
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tharivor View Post
    Isn't this part of the problem though? Even in passing conversation, Calia reveals her ignorance of what the Forsaken have gone through, of the full extent of the jarring discontinuity between the past life and present undeath. It shouldn't be easy for the Forsaken to embrace a leader who sees them only through the lens of what they once were, rather than understanding what they have become, especially since it touches on very painful memories. This is exactly why choosing a Forsaken leader that has never experienced any of this is an issue.
    I would call it a bridging moment for both sides of the coin, really. I'm not really sure if Lilian Voss knows much about her father Benedictus prior to the days of the Scarlet Crusade - she seems to have been effectively raised in to the Crusade from an early age. Calia could well provide a context for her that she never knew. I would agree that Calia is ill-suited to be the sole leader of the Forsaken, though; which is why I think she's a better sell alongside another Forsaken figure like Voss herself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tharivor View Post
    I can see Calia spiritually leading a small sub-group of penitential Forsaken, wielding the Light through sheer force of will akin to the post-Balnazzar Scarlet Crusade as Dickmann said. However making Calia the spiritual leader of all the Forsaken would be a very destructive mistake in terms of Forsaken lore. It's important to remember that Sylvanas was never the "spiritual leader" of the Forsaken- that niche was filled by the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow. While I know a lot of their lore seems to have fallen by the wayside recently, there's still enough in the vanilla quests (which AFAIK are still canon) to reaffirm the importance of their central tenant: namely that the Forsaken are sustained by their willpower alone and the main spiritual goal of a Forsaken is to impose his will upon the world. This is the polar opposite of Calia's spirituality predicated on blind submission to the Light (the very power that abandoned them to their fate) and seeking to better others. Making Calia spiritual leader of the Forsaken would remove an important part of what little non-Sylvanas lore they have left, and further hollow out their culture into nothing more than mindless imitators of whoever happens to be in power.
    I would say Sylvanas was both the spiritual and temporal leader of the Forsaken - she guided their spirit by directing them toward vengeance against the Scourge and the living, and obviously their temporal leader by dint of basically directing every aspect of Forsaken society (at least until her ascension to Warchief of the Horde). I think it's a bit too soon to make any kind of wild statement as concerns Calia's beliefs about the Light or the Shadow, she's never given any real hint of being a zealot or a fanatic, and having recently become undead she may well have a new understanding about how the balance between Light and Shadow works. I also see the contention between whatever influence Calia brings to the Forsaken and the extent of the Cult of Forgotten Shadow on Forsaken society as a nice dramatic hook in its own right. I don't foresee the Forsaken just abandoning their long-held beliefs in light of Calia's presence, either.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  18. #478
    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    As a Horde player, she is an alliance usurper, who has no business with our faction of a long dead kingdom and should go away asap. The Forsaken should be allowed to rule themselfs and not outdated, human, lightforged monarchs, who just appeared out of nowhere.
    Give her a chance you decaying abomination. You are lucky us Orcs did not destroy you years ago.
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  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    The Forsaken are the same people the way the orcs are still the blood crazed demon worshippers in the first invasionod
    The orcs are a generation or two removed from the orcs that invaded. Thrall was born in Azeroth. I could be mixed up on time frame, but I think that is true for most of the orcs.

    The forsaken, given they don't die of age or have generations, are the same people that would have seen King Menethil as a kind and generous king and, Arthas aside, would be welcoming of his daughter.

  20. #480
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    I cannot wait for the Dark Ranger announcement, they set it up beautifully for them to fit in as the next class, having both Nathanos and Sylvanas leave the Horde we can now have neutral Dark Rangers.
    Especially with Night Elf and Blood(or high?) Elf Dark Rangers available. And the new class mount.

    But of course we all now Tinker(er) is the only logical choice

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