Archimonde vs Ragnaros

[Terongor]

Y'sharaj was the strongest of the Old Gods.
No, from battles with weak opponents, he will become self-confident or lazy, thinking that no one can match him
Or Odin is initially much stronger than Loken. Perhaps Aman'Thul is not the strongest Titan, but in the fight against Argus, he claims that the only force capable of stopping him (in the usual, not mythical mode) is time. It was Aman'Thul who pacifies Argus, not Norgannon.
I must thank you for pointing me to the Chronicles (at least someone on this forum read them), since I noticed one important detail there
https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Wor...l?id=106975#61
The last sentence. Tyr was not at full strength during the battle with C'thraxxi . I have long assumed that after the ordering of Azeroth, the Keepers lost some of their strength. This is the reason why Archaedas and Loken look so weak. It is worth noting that it was these two Guardians who played an important role in the battle with the Old Gods. Archaedas created the prisons in which the Old Gods were imprisoned, and Loken sealed them with arcane magic. Perhaps they have lost more power than the other Keepers.
https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Wor...l?id=106975#43
It says that their collective strength and willpower has weakened. I suppose it means their ability to work together and their desire to protect Azeroth, but nonetheless. Another quote indicates that in Tire only the shadow of the old power remained in it. And although here it may be meant both a part of the power that Agrammar’s soul, which possessed him, gave him, and the power that he was given at the very beginning. But that doesn't matter. Tyr was not at his prime during this battle.
Great explanation. Or maybe it's just not as simple as it seems?
Yes I want to. Because Cenarius never met with Hakkar. Hakkar's hounds invaded the Grove of Cenarius, not Hakkar himself. Hakkar himself much later met with Malfurion and was killed by him.

Yeah he was the strongest but still doesn't say much as chronicles pointed that it was y'shraajs special power which nearly made him win the titanforged not anything else as other old gods still were no problem.

Archimonde knew there were creatures in the universe stronger than him as he knew about void, void lords and the old gods and sargeras so saying he only grew self confident and lazy is baseless speculation as in WotA he didn't aproach the resistant like that he was cautious against them which implies it didn't make him lazy nor arrogant.

They have different kind of powers sargeras and aman'thul could do nothing against sargeras while it was norgannon who protected their bodies and saved their souls while the titans were at full power and again time was aman'thuls special power.

IIRC earlier keepera became weaker when they just did nothing after ordering said in galakrass thing IIRC but that part of aman'thuls soul was the part we faced in antorus and even them we were nearly killed by demons just using their spirits which easily implies tyr had about same about of aggramars powers as other keepers souls had in antorus and that amount of force could easily compensate for not being at his full power.

Loken had norgannons power from antorus, yogg-sarons power which both easily are higher than his and chronicles 3 makes it a point that lorewise dungeons and raids aren't lorewise harder it just depends on the lore of the boss etc like in chronicles 3 horde did magisters terrance and alliance sunwell which were implied to be equal in difficulty.

Collective yeah means that.

As I said titans soul are much more powerful than keepers were at their prime and blizz at that whent by "titans are dead" so its most likely at bigger question what would it be currently.

I'll search for the book I should have somewere here sec.

[darkoms]

Yeah he was the strongest but still doesn't say much as chronicles pointed that it was y'shraajs special power which nearly made him win the titanforged not anything else as other old gods still were no problem.

Archimonde knew there were creatures in the universe stronger than him as he knew about void, void lords and the old gods and sargeras so saying he only grew self confident and lazy is baseless speculation as in WotA he didn't aproach the resistant like that he was cautious against them which implies it didn't make him lazy nor arrogant.

They have different kind of powers sargeras and aman'thul could do nothing against sargeras while it was norgannon who protected their bodies and saved their souls while the titans were at full power and again time was aman'thuls special power.

IIRC earlier keepera became weaker when they just did nothing after ordering said in galakrass thing IIRC but that part of aman'thuls soul was the part we faced in antorus and even them we were nearly killed by demons just using their spirits which easily implies tyr had about same about of aggramars powers as other keepers souls had in antorus and that amount of force could easily compensate for not being at his full power.

Loken had norgannons power from antorus, yogg-sarons power which both easily are higher than his and chronicles 3 makes it a point that lorewise dungeons and raids aren't lorewise harder it just depends on the lore of the boss etc like in chronicles 3 horde did magisters terrance and alliance sunwell which were implied to be equal in difficulty.

Collective yeah means that.

As I said titans soul are much more powerful than keepers were at their prime and blizz at that whent by "titans are dead" so its most likely at bigger question what would it be currently.

I'll search for the book I should have somewere here sec.

Was that his special ability? And what are the special abilities of other ancient gods then? He could do it because he was the strongest

LOL what. Archimonde simply commanded the army and he did not need to personally fight. But he went out to fight Malorne when he realized that his demons would not stop Malorne.

Sargeras was originally the strongest of the Titans, and then received incredibly fel power and that is why he won. I did not say that AmanTool is so strong that it can be erased by the power of thought.

You have a very strange logical chain and again it’s hard for me to understand what you mean. But where did you get the idea that the Keepers are as strong as the souls of the titans? In the Chronicles it was also said that the Keepers were infiltrated by the weakened and almost extinct souls of the Titans. The proof that the soul of titanium (especially weakened and almost extinct) can easily compensate for the original strength of the Keepers. Also, your original argument was that Tyr could not defeat two Kttraksi with full strength and with the soul of a titan. Well, now you know that he was not at full strength.

Proof that Loken is as strong as Norgannon in Antorus.

I will wait, but I assure you, Hakkar never met with Cenarius.

[Terongor]

Was that his special ability? And what are the special abilities of other ancient gods then? He could do it because he was the strongest

LOL what. Archimonde simply commanded the army and he did not need to personally fight. But he went out to fight Malorne when he realized that his demons would not stop Malorne.

Sargeras was originally the strongest of the Titans, and then received incredibly fel power and that is why he won. I did not say that AmanTool is so strong that it can be erased by the power of thought.

You have a very strange logical chain and again it’s hard for me to understand what you mean. But where did you get the idea that the Keepers are as strong as the souls of the titans? In the Chronicles it was also said that the Keepers were infiltrated by the weakened and almost extinct souls of the Titans. The proof that the soul of titanium (especially weakened and almost extinct) can easily compensate for the original strength of the Keepers. Also, your original argument was that Tyr could not defeat two Kttraksi with full strength and with the soul of a titan. Well, now you know that he was not at full strength.

Proof that Loken is as strong as Norgannon in Antorus.

I will wait, but I assure you, Hakkar never met with Cenarius.

Well sha's have the same ability and they were extremely weak and only a fragments of him hard to say as we haven't seen full old gods powers and that was mentioned about y'sharaajs.

Well he fought Jarod too which shows he goes into the battle field sometimes and not only commanding.

Yeah and only norgannon managed to save the titans souls sent them to the keepers.

the titans soul which were inside the keepers were the same souls we saw in Antorus raid during legion and being just tortured by the shivaras caused us incredibly harm and with that kind of power any c'thraxxi would be easily killed and we can assume the souls at those moments were equal in strength and later it was only because of those titan souls we managed to beat argus the unmaker so you are putting Ragnaros above the power of the keepers souls?

It was stated that Loken had his spirit inside and later it was said that attack to ulduar during legion was the moment the keepers souls were taken so they haven't being there for long and spirit being tortured doesn't let it regenerate in the lore usually and loken had the power boost given to him by Yogg-saron at those moments too.

I'll go pick it up tommorrow at the bros place

[darkoms]

Well sha's have the same ability and they were extremely weak and only a fragments of him hard to say as we haven't seen full old gods powers and that was mentioned about y'sharaajs.

Well he fought Jarod too which shows he goes into the battle field sometimes and not only commanding.

Yeah and only norgannon managed to save the titans souls sent them to the keepers.

the titans soul which were inside the keepers were the same souls we saw in Antorus raid during legion and being just tortured by the shivaras caused us incredibly harm and with that kind of power any c'thraxxi would be easily killed and we can assume the souls at those moments were equal in strength and later it was only because of those titan souls we managed to beat argus the unmaker so you are putting Ragnaros above the power of the keepers souls?

It was stated that Loken had his spirit inside and later it was said that attack to ulduar during legion was the moment the keepers souls were taken so they haven't being there for long and spirit being tortured doesn't let it regenerate in the lore usually and loken had the power boost given to him by Yogg-saron at those moments too.

I'll go pick it up tommorrow at the bros place

We also did not see the full strength of Y'sharaaj, only read about them. But yes, the old gods are different. Which does not negate how much stronger he is than everyone else.
As we have already noticed, he fought with Jarod when he was almost victorious, and Sargeras almost came to Azeroth.
Nor was he able to save the titans from the storm of corruption. I do not detract from his magical power. and in general, why did you start a debate about who is stronger, Norgannon or Aman'Thul? To prove that Loken is stronger than Odyn?

I can’t understand where you got the words about “incredible harm”. Heroes are constantly fighting powerful creatures and they are constantly inflicted by hellish pain, sometimes even kill them. C'thraxxi will be easily killed by pure power of the soul Proof?
I do not need assumptions, I need evidence. And what does Ragnaros have to do with it, if he fought with two Keepers, and not with all at once?
Again, I did not understand anything from your words. Once again, it was a weakened spirit and we have no idea if it could compensate for the powers of the Keeper. Yes, the souls were taken during the attack on Ulduar, but I still can’t understand, where was the spirit of Norgannon all this time if Loken died several years ago? Was Norgannon's soul trapped in Loken's body? Where was the soul of Agrammar after the death of Tyr?

I'll wait

[Aphrel]

I don't know, it seems quite powerful since it gives him back 35% of his life and extra damages.

this forum really needs an upvote button. i had a good chuckle.

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I voted for archimonde.

At least in my mind, both kj and archi are one teir above the elemental lords in power.

[TJ]

Archimonde by a long shot.

[Reyuna]

One on one brawl? Ragnaros takes it.

[Mermeoth]

Hmm let's see.

On one hand we have Archimonde who managed to conquer uncountable number of worlds.
On other hand we have we have Ragnaros who was no even able take control of single mountain.

This decision is so hard...

[Reyuna]

Hmm let's see.

On one hand we have Archimonde who managed to conquer uncountable number of worlds.
On other hand we have we have Ragnaros who was no even able take control of single mountain.

This decision is so hard...

Yet the first world he came across that could actually put up a fight, he failed. Big time.

[Mermeoth]

Yet the first world he came across that could actually put up a fight, he failed. Big time.

Still he did much better than Ragnaros.
Also gameplay reasons...

[darkoms]

I can’t understand why people still use this strange argument about conquering uncountable number of worlds.
Y'shaarj did not conquer uncountable number of worlds. Does this mean that he is weaker than Archimonde?

[Raugnaut]

Ragnaros can summon legs and feets. This ability is more useful if you ask me

Archimonde comes pre-equipped with legs AND feet. Thus Ragnaros's ability is, sadly, redundant.

[Reyuna]

Archimonde was very good at taking over large numbers of worlds that didn't have a chance to fight back. Archimonde was the definition of a"flat track bully."

Also. You know.

Wisps.

[Mermeoth]

I can’t understand why people still use this strange argument about conquering uncountable number of worlds.
Y'shaarj did not conquer uncountable number of worlds. Does this mean that he is weaker than Archimonde?

Archie did defeat Alliance, Horde and Sentinel at same time. Rag did't even manage to defeat one Orc clan and black dragons.
This might be better perspective.

[darkoms]

Archie did defeat Alliance, Horde and Sentinel at same time. Rag did't even manage to defeat one Orc clan and black dragons.
This might be better perspective.

That is, the Archiond did not have a huge army of undead and demons, as well as generals like Azgalor and Anteron? Interesting
You also forget that Ragnaros was weakened. It was only a shadow of his strength.
Am I supposed to explain the lore to everyone here?

[Mermeoth]

That is, the Archiond did not have a huge army of undead and demons, as well as generals like Azgalor and Anteron? Interesting
You also forget that Ragnaros was weakened. It was only a shadow of his strength.
Am I supposed to explain the lore to everyone here?

Whatever you say. At the end he was took down in his own realm by adventurers.
It's obvious that Archimonde was bigger threat than Ragnaros. Just look at their a accomplishments and their skill sets.
There is no real measure we can use here.

[darkoms]

Whatever you say. At the end he was took down in his own realm by adventurers.
It's obvious that Archimonde was bigger threat than Ragnaros. Just look at their a accomplishments and their skill sets.
There is no real measure we can use here.

''At the end he was took down in his own realm by adventurers.''
Just like Archimonde...

The accomplishments of Archimonde is ...? Had a fight with a huge deer? Ragnaros fought for weeks with the two strongest Keepers and was defeated largely because they were resistant to fire because of their skin. Archimonde is a demon of flesh and blood, not metal, he has no protection from fire

[Terongor]

We also did not see the full strength of Y'sharaaj, only read about them. But yes, the old gods are different. Which does not negate how much stronger he is than everyone else.
As we have already noticed, he fought with Jarod when he was almost victorious, and Sargeras almost came to Azeroth.
Nor was he able to save the titans from the storm of corruption. I do not detract from his magical power. and in general, why did you start a debate about who is stronger, Norgannon or Aman'Thul? To prove that Loken is stronger than Odyn?

I can’t understand where you got the words about “incredible harm”. Heroes are constantly fighting powerful creatures and they are constantly inflicted by hellish pain, sometimes even kill them. C'thraxxi will be easily killed by pure power of the soul Proof?
I do not need assumptions, I need evidence. And what does Ragnaros have to do with it, if he fought with two Keepers, and not with all at once?
Again, I did not understand anything from your words. Once again, it was a weakened spirit and we have no idea if it could compensate for the powers of the Keeper. Yes, the souls were taken during the attack on Ulduar, but I still can’t understand, where was the spirit of Norgannon all this time if Loken died several years ago? Was Norgannon's soul trapped in Loken's body? Where was the soul of Agrammar after the death of Tyr?

I'll wait

Yeah we didn't but it was descriped only that one of his ability caused trouble for the titaforged army and later only shas which are incredibly weak compared to what we see from Yogg and c'thun so yeah he is the most powerful one of the old gods and from him only his one ability which shas inherited caused trouble for the titanforged and we didn't see this ability from other old gods in anyway.

Yeah he fought Jarod then and so? even in wc3 he marches and destroying his enemies like the nelf finale map he talked to thrall and jaina which meant lorewise he was fighting them.

He saved their souls I'm only saying that norgannon was an incredibly powerful titan and chronicles even specified aman'thuls soul landed on raden and the book talked previously during galakrass chapter that keeper had already started growing weaker as they just stood around and only one who did anything from them at that point was tyr meaning he became less weaker than odyn and nor did odyn ever gain a titans spirit inside and odyn was trapped inside halls of valor for so long so he could do even less than loken could meaning lorewise as titans doing nothing in ulduar caused them to grow weaker meaning odyn being trapped ther he started growing weaker and he didn't even his titans spirit inside nor ant third party power like yogg meaning lorewise odyn should be weaker and as chronicles 3 kept making a point that lorewise raids and dungeons are equal in difficulty usually.

Everything is an assumption as this universe basic is physics which is derived from math and math basis are only assumptions which can't be proven they work they just do which makes everything derived from that an assumption meaning nothing can be proven on itself and it goes like physics is derived from math, chemistry is derived from physics, biology is derived from chemistry and list goes.

Mostly that neptulon is little bit weaker powerwise than ragnaros and got captured by just an giant squid inside his own realm which makes him more powerful there later on none of the remaning elemental lords even dared themselfs march towards something like tomb of sargeras and they dared face of openly againt titanforged armies and armies of the old gods but for some reason Tomb of sargeras was too much for them.

though I can see neither one of can convince the other in this so this doesn't really serve anypoint.

[darkoms]

Yeah we didn't but it was descriped only that one of his ability caused trouble for the titaforged army and later only shas which are incredibly weak compared to what we see from Yogg and c'thun so yeah he is the most powerful one of the old gods and from him only his one ability which shas inherited caused trouble for the titanforged and we didn't see this ability from other old gods in anyway.

Yeah he fought Jarod then and so? even in wc3 he marches and destroying his enemies like the nelf finale map he talked to thrall and jaina which meant lorewise he was fighting them.

He saved their souls I'm only saying that norgannon was an incredibly powerful titan and chronicles even specified aman'thuls soul landed on raden and the book talked previously during galakrass chapter that keeper had already started growing weaker as they just stood around and only one who did anything from them at that point was tyr meaning he became less weaker than odyn and nor did odyn ever gain a titans spirit inside and odyn was trapped inside halls of valor for so long so he could do even less than loken could meaning lorewise as titans doing nothing in ulduar caused them to grow weaker meaning odyn being trapped ther he started growing weaker and he didn't even his titans spirit inside nor ant third party power like yogg meaning lorewise odyn should be weaker and as chronicles 3 kept making a point that lorewise raids and dungeons are equal in difficulty usually.

Everything is an assumption as this universe basic is physics which is derived from math and math basis are only assumptions which can't be proven they work they just do which makes everything derived from that an assumption meaning nothing can be proven on itself and it goes like physics is derived from math, chemistry is derived from physics, biology is derived from chemistry and list goes.

Mostly that neptulon is little bit weaker powerwise than ragnaros and got captured by just an giant squid inside his own realm which makes him more powerful there later on none of the remaning elemental lords even dared themselfs march towards something like tomb of sargeras and they dared face of openly againt titanforged armies and armies of the old gods but for some reason Tomb of sargeras was too much for them.

though I can see neither one of can convince the other in this so this doesn't really serve anypoint.

And so, this still does not cancel out how strong Y'shaarj is. Nevertheless, he does not know how to blow up planets. This does not mean that he is weaker than Archimonde. In fact, any old god is stronger than Archimonde, if you are so confused by the example of Y'shaarj.
Yes, he fought with Jarod, who is hundreds of times weaker than Archimonde, this does not add to his experience in the battle against creatures such as Ragnaros. Does that mean he fought with them? They teleported after a few sentences, he did not fight with them. And this happens after his ARMY destroys the base.
I do not deny the strength of Norgannon. Galakrond. Not Galakrass. We have no idea whether Odyn began to weaken. And where did you get the idea that he did nothing. Perhaps his immense power is tied to his personal army of dead vrykuls. Remember, the Lich King grew stronger with every undead under his command. Yes, Odyn did not control them as the Lich King, but their souls were possible attached to him. But this is just a theory. They did not become weaker from the fact that they did nothing. As far as I remember, the Chronicles say that the ordering of Azeroth weakened them (and even so it says only about their collective strength, not their personal strength, that is, their ability to work in a team was most likely meant, but suppose their personal strength was meant , because in another quote it was indicated that Tyr became weaker, although after many years). Freya created the Emerald Dream and in many ways it is she who is responsible for the emergence of life on Azeroth (except for the elementals and creatures of the Old Gods). Loken may have created the Nexus (just a theory, I'm not sure who created it, Loken or Malygos). I'm not sure what the rest of the Keepers did (perhaps Thorim and Ra somehow normalized the weather on the planet). Perhaps this applies to actions during the war with the Old Gods. Loken and Archaedas were responsible for the conclusion of the Old Gods. Therefore, they have lost so much strength (as I said earlier). Ra together with Helia created an elemental plan. I do not think that they have weakened simply because they have not done anything.


Great explanation, as if I were back in school, thanks.

I do not agree that Neptulon is much weaker than Ragnaros. Neptulon fought powerful nude magic (and defeated her), but he was not at full strength. Neptulon himself claimed that the nagas had weakened him by defiling his waters. I also disagree with your example with Osumat. After his abduction, Neptulon defeated Ozumat and subjugated him to his will. Blizzard said this in an interview and said they wanted to show it in the game, but did not have time. In the Legion, in the beta version of the shaman quest, Ozumat appeared with Neptulon and completely obeyed him. And again, I do not agree with your example with the Tomb. Firstly: even if they attacked the Tomb, they would not be able to close the portal without the Pillars of Creation, so that would be pointless. Secondly: during the events of the Legion, two of the four elemental lords were replaced. I doubt Thunderaan and Smolderon are as strong as the original Lords. And you also forget that powerful beings do not always deal with the problems of the world. Aspects did not attack Icecrown Citadel. Does that mean they are weaker than the Lich King? In the world of Warcraft, there are a huge number of characters and you can’t fit them all in one place.
I didn’t ask who could kill anyone forever, I asked who would win the 1x1 battle

[Terongor]

And so, this still does not cancel out how strong Y'shaarj is. Nevertheless, he does not know how to blow up planets. This does not mean that he is weaker than Archimonde. In fact, any old god is stronger than Archimonde, if you are so confused by the example of Y'shaarj.
Yes, he fought with Jarod, who is hundreds of times weaker than Archimonde, this does not add to his experience in the battle against creatures such as Ragnaros. Does that mean he fought with them? They teleported after a few sentences, he did not fight with them. And this happens after his ARMY destroys the base.
I do not deny the strength of Norgannon. Galakrond. Not Galakrass. We have no idea whether Odyn began to weaken. And where did you get the idea that he did nothing. Perhaps his immense power is tied to his personal army of dead vrykuls. Remember, the Lich King grew stronger with every undead under his command. Yes, Odyn did not control them as the Lich King, but their souls were possible attached to him. But this is just a theory. They did not become weaker from the fact that they did nothing. As far as I remember, the Chronicles say that the ordering of Azeroth weakened them (and even so it says only about their collective strength, not their personal strength, that is, their ability to work in a team was most likely meant, but suppose their personal strength was meant , because in another quote it was indicated that Tyr became weaker, although after many years). Freya created the Emerald Dream and in many ways it is she who is responsible for the emergence of life on Azeroth (except for the elementals and creatures of the Old Gods). Loken may have created the Nexus (just a theory, I'm not sure who created it, Loken or Malygos). I'm not sure what the rest of the Keepers did (perhaps Thorim and Ra somehow normalized the weather on the planet). Perhaps this applies to actions during the war with the Old Gods. Loken and Archaedas were responsible for the conclusion of the Old Gods. Therefore, they have lost so much strength (as I said earlier). Ra together with Helia created an elemental plan. I do not think that they have weakened simply because they have not done anything.


Great explanation, as if I were back in school, thanks.

I do not agree that Neptulon is much weaker than Ragnaros. Neptulon fought powerful nude magic (and defeated her), but he was not at full strength. Neptulon himself claimed that the nagas had weakened him by defiling his waters. I also disagree with your example with Osumat. After his abduction, Neptulon defeated Ozumat and subjugated him to his will. Blizzard said this in an interview and said they wanted to show it in the game, but did not have time. In the Legion, in the beta version of the shaman quest, Ozumat appeared with Neptulon and completely obeyed him. And again, I do not agree with your example with the Tomb. Firstly: even if they attacked the Tomb, they would not be able to close the portal without the Pillars of Creation, so that would be pointless. Secondly: during the events of the Legion, two of the four elemental lords were replaced. I doubt Thunderaan and Smolderon are as strong as the original Lords. And you also forget that powerful beings do not always deal with the problems of the world. Aspects did not attack Icecrown Citadel. Does that mean they are weaker than the Lich King? In the world of Warcraft, there are a huge number of characters and you can’t fit them all in one place.
I didn’t ask who could kill anyone forever, I asked who would win the 1x1 battle

Well short answer is ragnaros is far more dumber, his magical power are far less and he doesn't have any planetar destruction level power spells as they require extreme amount of magical power and ragnaros hasn't even show to be close to that magical power on physical power he might have a slight edge but two out of three categories he loses so its likely he would lose as everyone else has pointed here also its likely that old gods had planetary destruction level powers too as even deathwing had when he was empowered by n'zoth the second cataclysm spell he tried to do but it would most likely destroy them and so they wouldn't do it.

every battles gives people experience as even thou you are more powerful it still gives you alot of ideas as how they enemy would act, lich king grew because of the souls he controlled in power and he started to weaken when some of them broke free so no as odyn doesn't mind control them. we have no knowledge about nexus so its pointless as we have no references to its creation either.

Beta isn't canon and he still got himself kidnapped. Thunderaan is an extremely powerful individual and they would have their masses aswell and taking control of the tomb and preventing more demons from coming and holding the portal would cause demons to not be able to use their mass against us and keeping them chocked on that portal would have actually made it alot easier for us

But you realise we aren't going agree on this in anyway so having a debate about it is pointless and is only wasting both of our time and debates point is to get the other person chance their mind nothing else and as such neither of us is going to so I'm most likely not going to answer on this thread anymore as majority thinks the same as me that archimonde is stronger though until blizz says oneway or another its only speculation as ragnaros doesn't have his powers described properly to give him a clear power level he jumps fron being sucky to strong in somepoints.