new forsaken leader spoilers

[Friendlyimmolation]

The orcs are a generation or two removed from the orcs that invaded. Thrall was born in Azeroth. I could be mixed up on time frame, but I think that is true for most of the orcs.

The forsaken, given they don't die of age or have generations, are the same people that would have seen King Menethil as a kind and generous king and, Arthas aside, would be welcoming of his daughter.

It’s more a comparison of their actions and behaviors and not necessarily them as people.

The average orc in Orgrimmar is not bright green with glowing red eyes drinking the blood of its enemies. Calia seems to think that the Forsaken are the exact same they are in death as they were in life. The only time we’ve seen undead as depressed humans and not the emotionally stunted people who want to leave their mark on a world that forsook them was in before the storm. So you have a leader that isn’t even really undead compared to the Forsaken, feels zero of the downsides of undeath, thinks that the Forsaken can be made better by giving them hugs and kisses now taking over their leadership. To call it grating is an understatement. Water and oil.

Edit: it would be like the blood elf Druid in the botica or however that dungeon was spelled showing up to take over the Druids if malf went away.

[Unholyground]

Especially with Night Elf and Blood(or high?) Elf Dark Rangers available. And the new class mount.

But of course we all now Tinker(er) is the only logical choice

Ya, "ghostbusting" Tinkers lol.

[Grazrug]

Give her a chance you decaying abomination. You are lucky us Orcs did not destroy you years ago.

I deleted my forsaken when Before the Storm was released. I am Orc and Bloddelf main first off.

[Unholyground]

I deleted my forsaken when Before the Storm was released. I am Orc and Bloddelf main first off.

I am for the merger of both factions, have been for a long time. We are getting Peace Mode, the PvE equivalent to War Mode so buckle up anti merger people

[Wangming]

It’s more a comparison of their actions and behaviors and not necessarily them as people.

The average orc in Orgrimmar is not bright green with glowing red eyes drinking the blood of its enemies. Calia seems to think that the Forsaken are the exact same they are in death as they were in life. The only time we’ve seen undead as depressed humans and not the emotionally stunted people who want to leave their mark on a world that forsook them was in before the storm. So you have a leader that isn’t even really undead compared to the Forsaken, feels zero of the downsides of undeath, thinks that the Forsaken can be made better by giving them hugs and kisses now taking over their leadership. To call it grating is an understatement. Water and oil.

Edit: it would be like the blood elf Druid in the botica or however that dungeon was spelled showing up to take over the Druids if malf went away.

Yeah. The Forsaken spent 15 years as outcasts who only survived due to poisons and ruthlessness. The sister of the one turning them undead, returning and giving them cuddles shouldn't give them a 180 turn. The only believable development for the story would be if the Forsaken murdered Calia when she least expects it, and taking over.

[Florena]

Considering that the vast bulk of forsaken are former alliance, even SYlvanas herself would have been during WC 2 though not at the time of her death, I don't have a problem with Darek and Calia being former alliance either. The question is more, if the chips were down, would they side with the forsaken or the alliance. Though I certainly see reasons not to like Calia in the role. Her becoming undead to better connect with her people would fit a lot better and be a more powerful story if she wasn't given a special form of undeath separate from what the forsaken experience. Her choosing normal undeath could have an interesting moment, but like a lot of blizzard's potentially interesting ideas, the execution was botched imo.

[Evilfish]

It’s more a comparison of their actions and behaviors and not necessarily them as people.

The average orc in Orgrimmar is not bright green with glowing red eyes drinking the blood of its enemies. Calia seems to think that the Forsaken are the exact same they are in death as they were in life. The only time we’ve seen undead as depressed humans and not the emotionally stunted people who want to leave their mark on a world that forsook them was in before the storm. So you have a leader that isn’t even really undead compared to the Forsaken, feels zero of the downsides of undeath, thinks that the Forsaken can be made better by giving them hugs and kisses now taking over their leadership. To call it grating is an understatement. Water and oil.

Edit: it would be like the blood elf Druid in the botica or however that dungeon was spelled showing up to take over the Druids if malf went away.

The problem is that Calia is right cause she's another one of Golden's little treasures. The thing is that in the Before the Storm novel the Forsaken are written as "nice" people dealing with undeath like people deal with old age.

Hell even the fucking humans going to meet the undead and turn away act like they got catfished.

I'll be honest. I don't want Golden on the writing team. Since she joined the story got really fucked up. It wasn't great until then but it wasn't a total tragedy either.

[Super Dickmann]

Context is seldom singular, and while Calia doesn't share some aspects of it with the Forsaken she does share in others - she's of Lordaeron, she knows the people from their living days, she shares in their fervor for Lordaeronian identity, and she's part of their heritage. I think the focus on Voss itself is somewhat illuminating, because I myself never knew Voss' father was once just a simple and seemingly well-liked Priest. That, too, is as equally a part of Lilian's history as her later treatment by Benedictus. Calia focuses on and has knowledge of the more positive aspect of the man who would later turn his own daughter into a living weapon for the Scarlet Crusade. As for Delayrn, she seems to know that Calia is somehow able to help Forsaken deal with the agonies of adapting to their new state, as she did with Derek (who is also not Lordaeronian) - this seems to be an ability that's not intrinsic to her heritage but more one related to her being a Priestess or possibly one related to what kind of undead being she is. Word of Calia's ability seems to have spread (probably due to Voss herself promulgating it).

I think that itself is somewhat the problem - Calia offers an easy escape. Yes, she recalls that Voss' father was once a good man, though how long ago that was given she was raised as a weapon is a bit dubious, that the Forsaken were once just regular people and that even the night elves can be helped, even if she has little to do with them. But she has no frame of reference for what came after and that's why validating her as the one to do it strikes a poor chord with me. It's an inversion of the Illidan story - instead of 'I am my scars', much mocked as it is, we're told that the Xe'ra figure here is the correct one - that if someone with a magic wand offers to remove all your troubles for you, you should accept.

Thinking about it, if the prophecy is to be taken as being anti-Calia, and I really don't buy that Calia will be a negative character, leaning into this aspect may be the best way to solve the problem. Calia as someone with a practically unnatural level of empathy and understanding who, in one way or another, can get everyone to buy into her, despite being a basically hollow figure in her own right. Have it pointed out that despite having little in common with Delaryn, somehow she and the other night elves feel better around her, make her journey easy instead of her, with subtle allusions here and there that something isn't quite right. Emphasize that despite the Light harming them, her guidance and their belief have her followers do it anyway - amp up the charisma and the zeal of those with her. As a temporary leader to show why this doesn't work, Calia has tons of potential. But I just don't believe that's what she is - I think we're meant to take all this at face value and I just don't buy it at all.

Calia is an outsider, definitely, but she's not completely alien and the Light is still a known concept and philosophy among the Forsaken (with some of them even cleaving to it despite their undead state). I would also say there's no need for Calia to step into the cult of personality that Sylvanas once occupied - and I definitely think it would be better for the Forsaken as a whole if she didn't do that. Better for each Forsaken to come to their own internal balance in their own way, which Calia seems to have some skill in helping Forsaken achieve (e.g. Derek). That being said, Calia is pretty from far from Sylvanas personality-wise, so it seems very unlikely she'd step into that role on her own for any reason. She could be forced into by desperate Forsaken, but she'd be ill-suited to it - which could of course make for a dramatic arc all on its own.

I don't buy that Calia is not ready to step into the role herself. She doesn't want it initially, yes, she just wants to stick around with her family out of harm's way. But her divine cause given to her by the naaru is to be what she is now. While she's wracked with doubt and worry about her purpose before that, the new Calia should be someone with little to no doubt, like is alluded to at the end of BTS - someone who not just thinks what she goes on to do is the work of providence, but factually knows that's the case. While it's pretty pathetic, I can buy that, especially post-retcon, there'd be a fair few people who find such an escape and a return to how much better things could be convincing. They should by no means be everyone - for her to be remotely plausible as a real character some Forsaken should reject her, be it because of their grievances that they can't just dismiss out of hand, loyalty to Sylvanas or a Forgotten Shadow-like tilt towards transhumanism and self-actualization.

[Aucald]

I think that itself is somewhat the problem - Calia offers an easy escape. Yes, she recalls that Voss' father was once a good man, though how long ago that was given she was raised as a weapon is a bit dubious, that the Forsaken were once just regular people and that even the night elves can be helped, even if she has little to do with them. But she has no frame of reference for what came after and that's why validating her as the one to do it strikes a poor chord with me. It's an inversion of the Illidan story - instead of 'I am my scars', much mocked as it is, we're told that the Xe'ra figure here is the correct one - that if someone with a magic wand offers to remove all your troubles for you, you should accept.

Derek's travails seem pretty far from "an easy escape," and it seems he's very much still a work in progress, as it were. I also don't think all the Naaru are Xe'ra, either; some of them are beneficent and seem to care for mortals (in keeping with the aesthetic of the Light in general), whereas some are more martial or fanatical. That being said, the path Calia offers the Forsaken isn't one that's ever really been offered - it presents a choice that was never offered them, as Sylvanas always exhorted them to get on her level and embrace undeath (first as a weapon against the Lich King, then on its own as a new state of being).

Thinking about it, if the prophecy is to be taken as being anti-Calia, and I really don't buy that Calia will be a negative character, leaning into this aspect may be the best way to solve the problem. Calia as someone with a practically unnatural level of empathy and understanding who, in one way or another, can get everyone to buy into her, despite being a basically hollow figure in her own right. Have it pointed out that despite having little in common with Delaryn, somehow she and the other night elves feel better around her, make her journey easy instead of her, with subtle allusions here and there that something isn't quite right. Emphasize that despite the Light harming them, her guidance and their belief have her followers do it anyway - amp up the charisma and the zeal of those with her. As a temporary leader to show why this doesn't work, Calia has tons of potential. But I just don't believe that's what she is - I think we're meant to take all this at face value and I just don't buy it at all.

Remains to be seen, really. Part of the buy in will be in how the writers choose to play it. I'm personally hoping things aren't as straightforward as they seem, as that would be admittedly quite dull and formulaic. There's a lot of potential here all the same, and it would be nice to see some of it realized.

I don't buy that Calia is not ready to step into the role herself. She doesn't want it initially, yes, she just wants to stick around with her family out of harm's way. But her divine cause given to her by the naaru is to be what she is now. While she's wracked with doubt and worry about her purpose before that, the new Calia should be someone with little to no doubt, like is alluded to at the end of BTS - someone who not just thinks what she goes on to do is the work of providence, but factually knows that's the case. While it's pretty pathetic, I can buy that, especially post-retcon, there'd be a fair few people who find such an escape and a return to how much better things could be convincing. They should by no means be everyone - for her to be remotely plausible as a real character some Forsaken should reject her, be it because of their grievances that they can't just dismiss out of hand, loyalty to Sylvanas or a Forgotten Shadow-like tilt towards transhumanism and self-actualization.

Nor do I, and I additionally don't think she'll be ready, insofar as that goes. I don't think the Naaru recreated Calia as a zealot or firebrand of any kind, myself; everything we've seen of her post-BTS as well as her limited portrayal in BfA seems to show she is much as she was for - unsure, unready, and still feeling her way through her recent change of state. I still see her as what could be an important secondary figure and mover of plot, especially in conjunction with a more pragmatic leader as previously discussed.

[Gwathir]

I wouldn't be so quick to assume that this is going to "completely destroy" the character of the Forsaken. Voss makes clear that not all of the Forsaken are necessarily willing to abandon Sylvanas' way of thinking. I suspect the Forsaken will simply prove to be less homogeneous than they've previously been. Some will largely be "sad, grey humans," but others will continue to be brooding, sadistic, and fueled by a desire to avenge the abandonment they suffered at the hands of their human relatives.

If that's how things play out, there could be some interesting storytelling potential in Forsaken politics moving forward.

[DeltrusDisc]

lol Lightforged Forsaken MAKE IT HAPPEN XD

[Super Dickmann]

Derek's travails seem pretty far from "an easy escape," and it seems he's very much still a work in progress, as it were. I also don't think all the Naaru are Xe'ra, either; some of them are beneficent and seem to care for mortals (in keeping with the aesthetic of the Light in general), whereas some are more martial or fanatical. That being said, the path Calia offers the Forsaken isn't one that's ever really been offered - it presents a choice that was never offered them, as Sylvanas always exhorted them to get on her level and embrace undeath (first as a weapon against the Lich King, then on its own as a new state of being).

Derek's trevails consist of a few weeks of what the Forsaken had under the Scourge, except unsucessful because Sylvanas in BFA is a raging incompetent. In that sense, he does have that in common with the Forsaken. What he doesn't have is the aftermath - when the Forsaken, Sylvanas included, were freed and they reached out those like them, those like them rejected them. Jaina had a moment's doubt, then became Derek's friend and he spent the rest of the war in a cottage having a chill time.

To clarify my point about how this is an inversion of the Xe'ra story, I don't mean because of the naaru, I mean that what Xe'ra offered Illidan is equivalent to what Calia offered the Forsaken. Both are people who've been twisted by the magic they're infused with, who've made some pretty dark choices and fucked a lot of people over, ruining a lot of lives. Both are offered ways out where the Light wipes these traits away and transforms them into more conventional heroes. Illidan refused and fried her, because however bad those things were, they were part of who he was and he was unwilling to give up his identity. With the Forsaken, it's treated as a positive thing for them to set these things aside. Hence drawing that line in particular - yes, her father was a good man and Illidan's eyes 'shone with such promise' but he was still ultimately a piece of shit who screwed Lilian over in life and death. The main difference is that Illidan was allowed agency over his actions, whereas the Forsaken are having theirs negated - they wuz tricked. The message is out of whack even disregarding how it's just pivoting from one personality cult to another.

Remains to be seen, really. Part of the buy in will be in how the writers choose to play it. I'm personally hoping things aren't as straightforward as they seem, as that would be admittedly quite dull and formulaic. There's a lot of potential here all the same, and it would be nice to see some of it realized.

I maintain that the current course has so far gutted the Forsaken to the core. It can continue in that ditch, or it can take a route like this one where it actually examines what Calia represents. I think it'll be the former and I haven't been wrong about this pestilence of a character yet, but I hope I'm wrong.

Nor do I, and I additionally don't think she'll be ready, insofar as that goes. I don't think the Naaru recreated Calia as a zealot or firebrand of any kind, myself; everything we've seen of her post-BTS as well as her limited portrayal in BfA seems to show she is much as she was for - unsure, unready, and still feeling her way through her recent change of state. I still see her as what could be an important secondary figure and mover of plot, especially in conjunction with a more pragmatic leader as previously discussed.

To clarify, I don't mean that Calia would be a zealot in the hostile sense or a Xe'ra style person, she clearly isn't. Rather that as compared to how worried she is about doing anything, she mentions specifically her relief at being waht she's meant to be and her mind being at peace from the whims of the naaru after she's raised in the form she's in. Afterwards, the very next time we see her she's taken initiative and wants to go to the Forsaken. She's not a reluctant monarch, she just appears so because the only other person we see react to her throws herself at Calia's feet to ask her to lead them.

[Deferionus]

It’s more a comparison of their actions and behaviors and not necessarily them as people.

The average orc in Orgrimmar is not bright green with glowing red eyes drinking the blood of its enemies. Calia seems to think that the Forsaken are the exact same they are in death as they were in life. The only time we’ve seen undead as depressed humans and not the emotionally stunted people who want to leave their mark on a world that forsook them was in before the storm. So you have a leader that isn’t even really undead compared to the Forsaken, feels zero of the downsides of undeath, thinks that the Forsaken can be made better by giving them hugs and kisses now taking over their leadership. To call it grating is an understatement. Water and oil.

Edit: it would be like the blood elf Druid in the botica or however that dungeon was spelled showing up to take over the Druids if malf went away.

Calia was killed trying to treat the Forsaken as a normal person and having them reunite with human family who were still alive. She was risen from the dead herself.

[Grazrug]

I wouldn't be so quick to assume that this is going to "completely destroy" the character of the Forsaken. Voss makes clear that not all of the Forsaken are necessarily willing to abandon Sylvanas' way of thinking. I suspect the Forsaken will simply prove to be less homogeneous than they've previously been. Some will largely be "sad, grey humans," but others will continue to be brooding, sadistic, and fueled by a desire to avenge the abandonment they suffered at the hands of their human relatives.

If that's how things play out, there could be some interesting storytelling potential in Forsaken politics moving forward.

What is interesting about being normal, light worshipping humans just with grey skin? I didn't sign up for playing an all out alliance race when I first created my original undead characters back in the old days. The dark and edgy theme is what was the normal thing during these times.

[baskev]

So you think Draenai would be fine with an orc that bathed in the blood of draenai children to be their leader? Although mot as bad as saurfang is to the draenai its same idea with calia being leader of forsaken. It's an insult.

Yes if he acted like he has acted like he did now. Remember without the draenai, dreanor would still be around.

On top of that........calia was like most of the forsaken and citizen ( human) of lordaroan. Who else should rule them? lor'themar? thrall?

She is a old human, new undead. She has ties to the city and the forsaken people. ( both in positive and negative way). She and her brother are both undead...like the forsaken. And if you followed anything of the pre story. Forsaken are open to meet their kin again......she would be perfect to help with that.

[Aucald]

Derek's trevails consist of a few weeks of what the Forsaken had under the Scourge, except unsucessful because Sylvanas in BFA is a raging incompetent. In that sense, he does have that in common with the Forsaken. What he doesn't have is the aftermath - when the Forsaken, Sylvanas included, were freed and they reached out those like them, those like them rejected them. Jaina had a moment's doubt, then became Derek's friend and he spent the rest of the war in a cottage having a chill time.

I would say that's a projection - we don't really know the extent of what Derek endured under Sylvanas' watch, and whether it was better or worse in the granular sense than what was done to the Scourge. Also, a lot of the Forsaken (especially those raised by the Val'kyr) don't have that in common with the OG Forsaken either. Additionally, I've got a lot questions about that particular point as well, and how much it is played for propaganda by Sylvanas and Nathanos. The loss of the Forsaken's emissaries to the Alliance is a tragedy, no doubt; but neither is it really a firm casus belli for years of unremitting hostility. The Alliance mistaking them for Scourge, while deeply unfortunate, isn't exactly damning - coming off the heels of the Third War and the shared trauma of the Scourge it's pretty understandable, really. There's been time enough for cooler heads to prevail by this point.

To clarify my point about how this is an inversion of the Xe'ra story, I don't mean because of the naaru, I mean that what Xe'ra offered Illidan is equivalent to what Calia offered the Forsaken. Both are people who've been twisted by the magic they're infused with, who've made some pretty dark choices and fucked a lot of people over, ruining a lot of lives. Both are offered ways out where the Light wipes these traits away and transforms them into more conventional heroes. Illidan refused and fried her, because however bad those things were, they were part of who he was and he was unwilling to give up his identity. With the Forsaken, it's treated as a positive thing for them to set these things aside. Hence drawing that line in particular - yes, her father was a good man and Illidan's eyes 'shone with such promise' but he was still ultimately a piece of shit who screwed Lilian over in life and death. The main difference is that Illidan was allowed agency over his actions, whereas the Forsaken are having theirs negated - they wuz tricked. The message is out of whack even disregarding how it's just pivoting from one personality cult to another.

To which I would say this is a framing that needn't be the case - the Forsaken don't have to lose anything they aren't willing or actively wanting to give up, as it were. Xe'ra's proposition to Illidan was about literally having a destiny foisted upon him. The negation of what he considered his goal (the defeat of the Legion) and the bestowal of what Xe'ra wanted his goal to me (servant and warrior of the greater Light against the Void). Remembering your scars and recognizing that they're a part of you is a good thing, and not something I would want the Forsaken to surrender in the name of "being healed," whatever that might mean. Literally becoming your scars isn't a good thing - it wasn't for Illidan, and it wouldn't be for the Forsaken, either. The Forsaken can continue being a pragmatic, willful people with a penchant for darkness due to their state of being, but Calia can perhaps keep them from the worst excesses of their plight - like become hate-filled enemies of all life a la Putress. That's not a bad thing in my book, and it doesn't erase Forsaken culture.

I maintain that the current course has so far gutted the Forsaken to the core. It can continue in that ditch, or it can take a route like this one where it actually examines what Calia represents. I think it'll be the former and I haven't been wrong about this pestilence of a character yet, but I hope I'm wrong.

I think we'll continue to agree to disagree, there. The original model for the Forsaken is still a road they can take - and in some ways, you'll need some of those pragmatic and coldly practical souls in the days to come. But a leaven is sorely needed so that the Forsaken don't veer into the ditch of one-dimensional villainy (a fate just as terrible as the one you feel they're heading toward).

To clarify, I don't mean that Calia would be a zealot in the hostile sense or a Xe'ra style person, she clearly isn't. Rather that as compared to how worried she is about doing anything, she mentions specifically her relief at being waht she's meant to be and her mind being at peace from the whims of the naaru after she's raised in the form she's in. Afterwards, the very next time we see her she's taken initiative and wants to go to the Forsaken. She's not a reluctant monarch, she just appears so because the only other person we see react to her throws herself at Calia's feet to ask her to lead them.

I think it's pertinent to point out that becoming undead wasn't something Saa'ra forced onto Calia, either; it's what Calia wanted for herself as well - a reflection of what she wanted to become in light of what had happened at the Gathering. This isn't really a matter of the Light forcing a design on a resisting soul, it's the Light facilitating a change that was wanted and perhaps even necessary. Obviously the Light gets something out of it as well, but that's not definitionally a bad thing either. Saa'ra, as a redeemed darkened Naaru, has an understanding of the Void as well as the Light - it may well be more enlightened than Xe'ra ever was.

[Ethas]

This is just embarassingly stupid. Making kind snowflakes out of Forsaken is dumb. Golden girlish hand is so obvious here it is not even funny.

[Super Dickmann]

I would say that's a projection - we don't really know the extent of what Derek endured under Sylvanas' watch, and whether it was better or worse in the granular sense than what was done to the Scourge. Also, a lot of the Forsaken (especially those raised by the Val'kyr) don't have that in common with the OG Forsaken either. Additionally, I've got a lot questions about that particular point as well, and how much it is played for propaganda by Sylvanas and Nathanos. The loss of the Forsaken's emissaries to the Alliance is a tragedy, no doubt; but neither is it really a firm casus belli for years of unremitting hostility. The Alliance mistaking them for Scourge, while deeply unfortunate, isn't exactly damning - coming off the heels of the Third War and the shared trauma of the Scourge it's pretty understandable, really. There's been time enough for cooler heads to prevail by this point.

With Sylvanas this is completely unambiguous. The blood elves told her to go fuck herself more or less and only changed their minds when she was suddenly powerful enough to help. This is from Chronicle. As for the Forsaken, this is unambigious in Vanilla - per the Forsaken intro and the Stormwind quests, Stormwind has a kill on sight policy based on the Forsaken being aberrations against the Light and the history attached to them. They weren't killed because they were confused for Scourge per se, so much as that they were undead and differentiation between the kinds. For what it's worth, even BTS, while mostly operating on the premise that Sylvanas tricked them into victimhood and humanity could easily be their friends still has humanity start out hostile, but through the grace of Anduin pulls a 180 extremely easily. Lacking Anduin back then, the consensus is obvious.

Even then, this wasn't the casus belli because the Forsaken didn't have the capacity for a large scale war with the Alliance at that point. They were more concerned with surviving against the Scarlet Crusade, who were at least tacitly acknowledged by the Alliance back then and by the human farmers who had just as low an opinion of the Forsaken as the Forsaken had of them. This is not to excuse the Forsaken mind, they were vicious pieces of shit and the main thing keeping them away from their Cata mentality was that Arthas was still the bigger fish, the depression they have largely and their lack of capacity, so much as to say that even with the retcons, there's no indication that their initial situation was the product of Sylvanas' deception. It only became such later on.

To which I would say this is a framing that needn't be the case - the Forsaken don't have to lose anything they aren't willing or actively wanting to give up, as it were. Xe'ra's proposition to Illidan was about literally having a destiny foisted upon him. The negation of what he considered his goal (the defeat of the Legion) and the bestowal of what Xe'ra wanted his goal to me (servant and warrior of the greater Light against the Void). Remembering your scars and recognizing that they're a part of you is a good thing, and not something I would want the Forsaken to surrender in the name of "being healed," whatever that might mean. Literally becoming your scars isn't a good thing - it wasn't for Illidan, and it wouldn't be for the Forsaken, either. The Forsaken can continue being a pragmatic, willful people with a penchant for darkness due to their state of being, but Calia can perhaps keep them from the worst excesses of their plight - like become hate-filled enemies of all life a la Putress. That's not a bad thing in my book, and it doesn't erase Forsaken culture.

The main thing I'm getting at with the Illidan example isn't that Illidan was better than Xe'ra or the Army of Light when he refused or that this was a triumph of morality. Rather that the way he went out, selfishly to be sure, was true to his character. Did this make him a good person? Tyrande and Malfurion's responses at the end draw attention on why he isn't. But he was himself to the end. The same applies to the Forsaken. While in the new canon the personality cult and their alienation from the living past a point were foisted on them, the same can't be said about what they experienced to get there or indeed their experience in that cult in the first place. Showing the strength of will to overcome it and self-govern, without giving up what put them in that position in the first place would be true to their cover. Instead trying to capture their identity at the expense of that, as Calia basically represents both in BTS and in her dialogue with Voss, doesn't gel.

I think we'll continue to agree to disagree, there. The original model for the Forsaken is still a road they can take - and in some ways, you'll need some of those pragmatic and coldly practical souls in the days to come. But a leaven is sorely needed so that the Forsaken don't veer into the ditch of one-dimensional villainy (a fate just as terrible as the one you feel they're heading toward).

They were under no risk of such unless they decided to have the whole race go with current Sylvanas, which was never going to happen. On the other hand, all turning into sad humans is already in the process. As already pointed out, their entire prior cast may as well not exist, with the exception of Voss, who reneges on her own development in order to push Calia into the position. The Forsaken in BFA give the impression of people who badly need to be ruled and their preference for such overrides everything else. Before they can maintain any identity, it needs to be their identity. This is the one thing BTS really pushed, poorly, of course, but its in-game translation has been pretty devastating in validating the villain's assessment of them.

I think it's pertinent to point out that becoming undead wasn't something Saa'ra forced onto Calia, either; it's what Calia wanted for herself as well - a reflection of what she wanted to become in light of what had happened at the Gathering. This isn't really a matter of the Light forcing a design on a resisting soul, it's the Light facilitating a change that was wanted and perhaps even necessary. Obviously the Light gets something out of it as well, but that's not definitionally a bad thing either. Saa'ra, as a redeemed darkened Naaru, has an understanding of the Void as well as the Light - it may well be more enlightened than Xe'ra ever was.

As said, I principally agree with you that it's likely benign, but I'll argue from the position of viewing this as more dubious. In that reading, the fact that Calia had bad dreams and was guided towards this while previously rejecting the name Menethil and that it conveniently enough vanished the second she started doing what the naaru was guiding her to do, and she was gifted with a super special form in doing so, with N'zoth whispering about how there's now a bargain between Light and Death all strikes me as just a little bit questionable. Especially since not all manipulation is overt or malevolent. Indeed, the Light in general is, even when manipulative, never outright malicious. Calia doesn't need to resist her destiny, she just needs to be nudged towards it. And we have plenty of circumstantial evidence that she was.

[Aucald]

With Sylvanas this is completely unambiguous. The blood elves told her to go fuck herself more or less and only changed their minds when she was suddenly powerful enough to help. This is from Chronicle. As for the Forsaken, this is unambigious in Vanilla - per the Forsaken intro and the Stormwind quests, Stormwind has a kill on sight policy based on the Forsaken being aberrations against the Light and the history attached to them. They weren't killed because they were confused for Scourge per se, so much as that they were undead and differentiation between the kinds. For what it's worth, even BTS, while mostly operating on the premise that Sylvanas tricked them into victimhood and humanity could easily be their friends still has humanity start out hostile, but through the grace of Anduin pulls a 180 extremely easily. Lacking Anduin back then, the consensus is obvious.

"Chronicle Vol. 3" isn't as forthcoming as you imply here - pg. 113 "The Forsaken and the Horde" said that the Blood Elves "feared the undead and treated [the Forsaken] as monsters," meaning that they just considered them Scourge and shunned them accordingly (and not without due reason given what the Scourge did to Quel'Thalas). They weren't willing to take the chance that the Forsaken were actually free-willed and potentially allow more Scourge into their already besieged homeland. The same page addresses the Alliance emissaries as well - "... her emissaries to the Alliance never returned. Sylvanas suspected they hadn't survived long enough even to make it past the first gates of Stormwind City." That word "suspected" is key, as Sylvanas actually has no idea what happened to them, she only suspects the Alliance killed them (which they likely did, probably for the same reasons as the Blood Elves). Prior to the Forsaken there was no real public precedent for free-willed or "good" undead, the undead were always monstrous beings and the legacy of the Third War and the Scourge would've loomed large for pretty much every government on Azeroth. By the time of Classic the Forsaken are a known quantity, allied with the Horde, and Nathanos himself had slaughtered a contingent of SI:7 scouts in a particularly brutal fashion - explaining much of Stormwind's animosity toward the Forsaken at that time.

Even then, this wasn't the casus belli because the Forsaken didn't have the capacity for a large scale war with the Alliance at that point. They were more concerned with surviving against the Scarlet Crusade, who were at least tacitly acknowledged by the Alliance back then and by the human farmers who had just as low an opinion of the Forsaken as the Forsaken had of them. This is not to excuse the Forsaken mind, they were vicious pieces of shit and the main thing keeping them away from their Cata mentality was that Arthas was still the bigger fish, the depression they have largely and their lack of capacity, so much as to say that even with the retcons, there's no indication that their initial situation was the product of Sylvanas' deception. It only became such later on.

Sylvanas didn't really need to deceive the Forsaken until much later, post-WotLK. She only needed to direct their anger and need for vengeance toward a constructive source for her purposes - easily done in that both they and she shared a deep animus for Arthas.

The main thing I'm getting at with the Illidan example isn't that Illidan was better than Xe'ra or the Army of Light when he refused or that this was a triumph of morality. Rather that the way he went out, selfishly to be sure, was true to his character. Did this make him a good person? Tyrande and Malfurion's responses at the end draw attention on why he isn't. But he was himself to the end. The same applies to the Forsaken. While in the new canon the personality cult and their alienation from the living past a point were foisted on them, the same can't be said about what they experienced to get there or indeed their experience in that cult in the first place. Showing the strength of will to overcome it and self-govern, without giving up what put them in that position in the first place would be true to their cover. Instead trying to capture their identity at the expense of that, as Calia basically represents both in BTS and in her dialogue with Voss, doesn't gel.

The identity of an individual is not the same as the identity of a people, which is why trying to compare the Forsaken as a whole to Illidan in specific isn't really a workable comparison on the face of it. It's fine for Illidan to stick to his guns and go out as himself, it was a personal battle for him as well as a personal calling. The Forsaken, as a people, need to be able to persist and survive as a people in order for individuals to have a purpose in the singular fashion. Illidan has no sodality, he defines himself by his singular nature. The Forsaken can't share in that distinction - they need a different path, preferably one that doesn't end in their extinction. I would argue that the Forsaken, as of BfA, haven't shown the capacity to self-govern at all - they relied on Sylvanas for that, subsuming their vaunted wills into her cult of personality and becoming her instruments (first as arrows in her quiver and then as pieces of her bulwark against final death). That's neither self-governance nor self-reliance, in my view.

They were under no risk of such unless they decided to have the whole race go with current Sylvanas, which was never going to happen. On the other hand, all turning into sad humans is already in the process. As already pointed out, their entire prior cast may as well not exist, with the exception of Voss, who reneges on her own development in order to push Calia into the position. The Forsaken in BFA give the impression of people who badly need to be ruled and their preference for such overrides everything else. Before they can maintain any identity, it needs to be their identity. This is the one thing BTS really pushed, poorly, of course, but its in-game translation has been pretty devastating in validating the villain's assessment of them.

I don't agree with the whole "sad humans" or "humans with a skin condition" hyperbole, I don't buy into the notion that changing from their prior characterization is a wholesale embrace of their former humanity in any real sense. The Forsaken *always* needed to be ruled - first by Sylvanas, and now apparently by Calia. Perhaps Calia and/or Voss can teach them another way, who can really say?

As said, I principally agree with you that it's likely benign, but I'll argue from the position of viewing this as more dubious. In that reading, the fact that Calia had bad dreams and was guided towards this while previously rejecting the name Menethil and that it conveniently enough vanished the second she started doing what the naaru was guiding her to do, and she was gifted with a super special form in doing so, with N'zoth whispering about how there's now a bargain between Light and Death all strikes me as just a little bit questionable. Especially since not all manipulation is overt or malevolent. Indeed, the Light in general is, even when manipulative, never outright malicious. Calia doesn't need to resist her destiny, she just needs to be nudged towards it. And we have plenty of circumstantial evidence that she was.

Really depends. Calia's rejection of the Menethil name seems more due to her own conflict concerning her brother's legacy and the saddening death of her father - not an outright rejection, just one borne more out of the feeling that the name had been tainted (and could also be dangerous for her to claim publicly given the widespread hatred for her brother). Calia also made no bones out of her desire not step into her father's old shoes, at least not until she gained a firsthand look at the plight of the Forsaken under Sylvanas. I don't personally think that the Light is itself unalloyed evil, I just think it's not unalloyed good, either. Like all the greater powers in Azeroth it's looking out more for itself and its own furtherance as opposed to acting purely altruistically. Sometimes this is a net positive, and sometimes it's a net negative. Calia's case is yet to be established, in my eyes; we need more data (which will likely be on offer in the days to come).

[Mirn]

So the Forsaken are just going to be vassals to the Alliance now? A golden dead girl to sit them underneath the golden lion boy.

Fuuuuuuuuun...