Horde Striving Not To Be Warmongering = Horde Dead?

[Gann Stonespire]

Could be. I don't remember the specifics but I've seen some other posters mention that Baine had some cut content in Cata that made him look surprisingly not like an Alliance doormat. I think it had something to do with the defense of the Great Gate. A speech or something.

https://www.wowhead.com/sounds/name:VO_Baine_Event

Here you go, too bad we got the crap timeline with irredeemable scumbag traitor Baine.

[Kithelle]

"It's World of WARcraft, not peacecraft!" -some brainlet probably

Because what are we doing? Asking the legion to please not burn us down? Asking the old god to not drive us insane and play nice?

[Mehrunes]

So you're saying what we see in-game doesn't translate to lore even though 90% of the lore is now told through the game? And Orcs are too stupid to fish even though they are shown fishing in-game? And mages can conjure up water? Or is that also just "game play?" That you try to defend that level of sloppy writing that runs into a wall of logic at every turn is like trying to defend Sylvanas as a great Warchief who always had the greatest intentions for the races of the Horde.

Oh, wait...

"Oh, wait..." what? Oh, resorting to a crappy straw-man in lieu of an argument? How original And that in-game portrayal of things, especially that of ease and speed of transit or scale is terrible to go by shouldn't be a surprise to anyone paying the slightest amount of attention. Armies aren't teleporting around from place to place. Jaina's feats of teleportation magic are considered to be amazing. Hearthstones are near-mythical objects. And @Super Dickmann just told you how Mages weren't exactly commonplace in Orgrimmar until Cata. And even then areas with more Mages have suffered droughts. How can that be if Mages can just conjure water on a large scale, eh? And yes, there's fuckton of societies surviving on fish alone.

https://www.wowhead.com/sounds/name:VO_Baine_Event

Here you go, too bad we got the crap timeline with irredeemable scumbag traitor Baine.

Ah, got it right then. Cheers. It just shows how MU is indeed the darkest timeline. Same as how our Garrosh was apparently the worst one. Pinging @mickybrighteyes

Because what are we doing? Asking the legion to please not burn us down? Asking the old god to not drive us insane and play nice?

It's just amazing how you didn't get what @TheRagebear was saying there.

[Kyphael]

"Oh, wait..." what? Oh, resorting to a crappy straw-man in lieu of an argument? How original And that in-game portrayal of things, especially that of ease and speed of transit or scale is terrible to go by shouldn't be a surprise to anyone paying the slightest amount of attention. Armies aren't teleporting around from place to place. Jaina's feats of teleportation magic are considered to be amazing. Hearthstones are near-mythical objects. And @Super Dickmann just told you how Mages weren't exactly commonplace in Orgrimmar until Cata. And even then areas with more Mages have suffered droughts. How can that be if Mages can just conjure water on a large scale, eh? And yes, there's fuckton of societies surviving on fish alone.

So the fact that "Thrall subjected his people to living in a barren wasteland" is self-admittedly both a major retcon and an illogical plot device has no bearings whatsoever on the credibility of the argument that "Thrall's an asshole, Garrosh was right?" Is that what I'm reading from you? If so, you forfeit all rights to criticize Illidan's "redemption arc" and pretty much Warlords of Draenor in its entirety, maybe the time travel aspect notwithstanding. You don't really, but do you not see the ridiculousness of it? Even if we take mage portals, and mages conjuring food and water en masse out of the equation, do you know how fucking huge Kalimdor is? Where do you draw the line where in-game representation does not translate to lore? There are literally forests surrounding Dire Maul, wildlife in Southern Barrens, fucking dinosaurs walking U'goro Crater, and Winterspring, Stonetalon Mountains, Azshara, and Tanaris crawling with wildlife and lumber Orcs can reach on foot, mounted, or in caravans and vehicles, yet the easiest fucking route to get some wood is invading night territory to incite conflict? That's some major limbo to justify that level of shit writing.

I'm not advocating for World of Peacecraft, but if you're going to try to advocate for the goofball, kindergarten-level of story-telling that Blizzard puts out, it's not going to happen without getting picked apart. I'm sorry that the "Thrall is an asshole, he put his people in a shit desert fortress, Garrosh was right" argument doesn't hold water, that's not your fault, you didn't write it, but don't die on a hill pretending it makes a lick of sense. Everything to do with this plot was forced or retconned to make Thrall look HORRIBLE, even though he was regarded a hero, and Moses-level figure in Warcraft III. But no, Thrall's an asshole, and Garrosh was right. Even if the "Thrall is a self-righteous masochistic dickface to his people" story wasn't illogical and a forced plot device to make Garrosh anything short of a monster, by that logic, when God made the Jews walk the desert for 40 years, he was wrong. Hate to bring in real world parallels but it's to bring to light how awful this argument even is.

[Magical Mudcrab]

No, my link blatantly states that's their excuse. Frostwolves' reaction makes it blatantly clear that they didn't have permission to do so. Judging by the exact same Dwarven imperialism in Mulgore and the Barrens, chances are they didn't even ask for it. Speaking of Mulgore and the Barrens, both Bael'dun Digsite and Bael Modan show how that "peaceful" arrival of the Dwarves in the name of archaeology looks like, tanks and other machinery of war together with military personnel. And even if Alterac Valley was somehow an exception, they still intruded on Horde territory. Which, lo and behold, is a hostile act in and of itself. And Deathwing becoming the ruler of Alterac was never finalized before he disappeared.

I had a long thing typed, pointing out that the Bael'dun, Bael Modan, and Mulgore expeditions were a single anomalous expedition, referencing the defences of the other expeditions, their ability to work with other races, and then I found these bits of information which are a little bit more convincing regarding the Stormpike's motivations than what you initially linked. It could be argued that this is something that came about post Frostwolf aggression, but it seems that the Stormpike were being the aggressors for the purposes of Dwarven expansionism.

We are fighting a brutal battle in the valleys of Alterac. The cannibalistic Winterax trolls attack us from one side and the savage Frostwolf Clan from the other. Both must be exterminated in the name of King Magni Bronzebeard! The taking, culling, and turning of that land is a sovereign and territorial imperative to the kingdom of Ironforge.

- Reference: https://classic.wowhead.com/quest=72...ign-imperative

What is Frostwolf? The answer is simple: The Frostwolf are savages trying to halt our sovereign imperialistic imperative.

- Reference: https://classic.wowhead.com/item=194...wolf-artichoke

[Feanoro]

I had a long thing typed, pointing out that the Bael'dun, Bael Modan, and Mulgore expeditions were a single anomalous expedition, referencing the defences of the other expeditions, their ability to work with other races, and then I found these bits of information which are a little bit more convincing regarding the Stormpike's motivations than what you initially linked. It could be argued that this is something that came about post Frostwolf aggression, but it seems that the Stormpike were being the aggressors for the purposes of Dwarven expansionism.


- Reference: https://classic.wowhead.com/quest=72...ign-imperative


- Reference: https://classic.wowhead.com/item=194...wolf-artichoke

Back when Alliance was actually allowed to have a story and be anything but a Horde plot device. Besides, Frostwolves are squatting on the remains of a kingdom the Old Horde destroyed. If it's Horde territory because of that, then Dwarves have every right to try to reconquer it for the Alliance.

[Gann Stonespire]

Besides, Frostwolves are squatting on the remains of a kingdom the Old Horde destroyed. If it's Horde territory because of that, then Dwarves have every right to try to reconquer it for the Alliance.

"The Alliance destroyed
Alterac for siding with the Old Horde" was what happened.

[Feanoro]

"The Alliance destroyed
Alterac for siding with the Old Horde" was what happened.

Hmmm, that was the case in WC2, but I thought that had been retconned in a later book?

[Gann Stonespire]

Hmmm, that was the case in WC2, but I thought that had been retconned in a later book?

Not really, the Horde never attacks Alterac in the book either.

[Gigantique]

Now that I’ve played Classic, I have to say how refreshing it is to have Alliance forces be aggressive and have morally gray agendas (dwarves especially). It drives the story and makes the Horde being war-based make more sense, since their main competitor isn’t the perfect little collective they are on retail. Of course modern Horde will always be the evil faction, since every conflict with the Alliance HAS to originate from the Horde attacking the Alliance, because god forbid the Alliance having agendas that means taking something from the Horde...

This also lets Horde characters actually maintain the savage noble-ness they value. Reading quests given by orcish NPCs show that a lot of them value honor and acting within a code of conduct, as seen by for example how the Fallen Hero of the Horde in Swamp of Sorrows is lamenting the fact that he was rash and took his team of 20 top-notch soldiers into the Blasted Lands without waiting for their orders. He fears that the orders might have held information that would have saved his troops from horrible deaths (it did), and that his rash decision has dishonored the Horde and his Warchief.

He later wants you to get him the orders that he didn’t get to see, for him to see if they would have saved his troops. When you ask the commander at Stonard about what happened to the orders, he is obviously insulted at first, going as far as to stating «What are you implying?» before telling you what happened to the troops he sent with the orders.

It feels like the current writers can only write the Horde/Alliance relationship in a binary state. Either we are at full out war, or we are at full on peace. Dustwallow Marsh is a perfect example from Classic on how I personally feel like the Horde and Alliance should be at their most peaceful; The Horde and Theramore are in a really strained state of armistice, with both sides spying on eachother and trying to steal information from eachother, as well as always suspecting the other faction of having a hand in anything negative that happens in the zone (Decapitated Orc Head, the burned down inn etc). This works because both the Horde and Alliance have plotlines where they are the obvious aggressors (one could argue that it is unknown if Tarren Mill or Southshore started the conflict in Hillsbrad, but I would make it a safe bet that the Forsaken started it, potentially after Dalaran wizards encroached into Silverpine?), so the factions are justified in being extremely wary of the other.

In retail WoW the Horde has NO basis to suspect the Alliance of ever doing anything questionable. Because of this the Horde has no reason to maintain its more war-like systems, because their competing superpower oozes peaceful intentions from every front. The only current potential aggressor from the Alliance is Tyrande, which is A) - direct revenge for an originally Horde aggression, and B) - very clearly, even to the Horde, not approved by the core of the Alliance. The plot cannot justify the Horde being unfriendly with the Alliance even if they’re not in a direct war because the Alliance never does anything to make the Horde be justified in it. In Classic it worked because races had a much higher impact than the Alliance as a whole, so while the Alliance and Horde weren’t in an official war, the Orcs were still operating in Ashenvale and skirmished with the Night Elves, the Forsaken battled Humans in Hillsbrad, and Dwarves expanded aggressively into the Barrens, Mulgore and Alterac Valley, clashing with the Tauren and Orcs especially.

[Daevied]

Since some goldiewhatever started writing the wow novels and whoever got in charge of wow lore, wow became a political correctness propaganda pamphlet

[Donatello Trumpi]

I think its more about horde being stripped of all elements that made it....well....horde? Rather than just wanting peace.

LOL, sylvanas being an elemental part of horde....

[allawyn]

I wasn't talking about the video I was talking about the quests just prior to the Mak'gora. Saurfang is clearly seen giving orders. The quest givers in that scneario are the leaders of your own faction, not the opposing faction.

It's not clear that Anduin is "in charge."

Well, I have unsubscribed because of the dumpster fire they made of Horde lore. (And having the Horde beg for Alliance forgiveness is only making things worse.) So if you think that is important, you will have to let me know what quests and I can look them up. But I have to say that giving out quests doesn't have the impact of showing someone giving orders to the other faction's army.

[Dundebuns]

Horde weren't aprticularly war mongering in WC3. Thrall led them away form conflict in fact, to find a new peaceful life.

You're thinking of the Old Horde.

[cocomen2]

LOL, sylvanas being an elemental part of horde....

Without Sylvanas, there no point for horde or alliance vengeance avengers to not wipe any cursed zombie from face of planet, why tolerate....
Tyrande : "Oh hi Forsaken, guess what i gonna do with you? YE BOIS"

[Powerogue]

The Horde existed because they were all misfit tribes who struggled to find a place to belong. Why the hell is it that Horde players don't even understand their own lore and faction foundations?

But Horde players (and WoW players in general) hate every ounce of character development that turns someone into anything more than a 2d hulk smash monster.

The most confusing part is people like to pin post-WotLK as when the lore went downhill, yet that is exactly the point where the Horde became more warmongery under Garrosh.

Make up your darn minds, guys.

They have absolutely set the groundwork for their return to that position, right down to them not being easily trusted due to their dark past, which we as players now have actually participated in, rather than hearing about in some distant game of another genre decades ago few of us have seen anything of.

I for one, am eager to see where that goes, especially since they are brewing up more forsaken storytelling with Sylvanas gone and them trying to find their place once again amidst these feelings of abandonment.

[matrix123mko]

Back when Alliance was actually allowed to have a story and be anything but a Horde plot device. Besides, Frostwolves are squatting on the remains of a kingdom the Old Horde destroyed. If it's Horde territory because of that, then Dwarves have every right to try to reconquer it for the Alliance.

Alterac was destroyed by Alliance. It was part of the Horde.

[Katchii]

Well, I have unsubscribed because of the dumpster fire they made of Horde lore. (And having the Horde beg for Alliance forgiveness is only making things worse.) So if you think that is important, you will have to let me know what quests and I can look them up. But I have to say that giving out quests doesn't have the impact of showing someone giving orders to the other faction's army.

I'm still not understanding where it is you saw Anduin giving orders to Horde troops. I saw rebellion troops being given orders by a rebellion leader. Why is that such a big deal?

The Alliance and Horde are still separate, they're just not at war anymore. There was a joint rebellion force that has now basically disbanded.

I don't care enough about the story or have any vested interest in it going one way or the other. I'm just along for the ride. It's still entertaining to me, in the sense that I'm still curious enough about the story to find out where it's going and as cheesy as I see some of the things going on...NONE of it is implausible or nearly as bad or contrived as some of the shows out there.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Since some goldiewhatever started writing the wow novels and whoever got in charge of wow lore, wow became a political correctness propaganda pamphlet

Golden has been writing novels since before mop In what way has wow become politically correct since then?

Nuking gnomes and having there body’s then to dust doesn’t seem very politically correct, neither does trying to drown a city full or Civs or killing orcs with shards of broken glass.

Mop wod and legion all had some pretty dark stuff in it which wouldn’t fall under political correctness.

Then we have bfa which took it up to 11 with thousands of civs burning alive in great detail farm folk pinned to walls in front of there kids and leaders blighting there own troops.

So how exactly has golden made Warcraft pc?

- - - Updated - - -

So the fact that "Thrall subjected his people to living in a barren wasteland" is self-admittedly both a major retcon and an illogical plot device has no bearings whatsoever on the credibility of the argument that "Thrall's an asshole, Garrosh was right?" Is that what I'm reading from you? If so, you forfeit all rights to criticize Illidan's "redemption arc" and pretty much Warlords of Draenor in its entirety, maybe the time travel aspect notwithstanding. You don't really, but do you not see the ridiculousness of it? Even if we take mage portals, and mages conjuring food and water en masse out of the equation, do you know how fucking huge Kalimdor is? Where do you draw the line where in-game representation does not translate to lore? There are literally forests surrounding Dire Maul, wildlife in Southern Barrens, fucking dinosaurs walking U'goro Crater, and Winterspring, Stonetalon Mountains, Azshara, and Tanaris crawling with wildlife and lumber Orcs can reach on foot, mounted, or in caravans and vehicles, yet the easiest fucking route to get some wood is invading night territory to incite conflict? That's some major limbo to justify that level of shit writing.

I'm not advocating for World of Peacecraft, but if you're going to try to advocate for the goofball, kindergarten-level of story-telling that Blizzard puts out, it's not going to happen without getting picked apart. I'm sorry that the "Thrall is an asshole, he put his people in a shit desert fortress, Garrosh was right" argument doesn't hold water, that's not your fault, you didn't write it, but don't die on a hill pretending it makes a lick of sense. Everything to do with this plot was forced or retconned to make Thrall look HORRIBLE, even though he was regarded a hero, and Moses-level figure in Warcraft III. But no, Thrall's an asshole, and Garrosh was right. Even if the "Thrall is a self-righteous masochistic dickface to his people" story wasn't illogical and a forced plot device to make Garrosh anything short of a monster, by that logic, when God made the Jews walk the desert for 40 years, he was wrong. Hate to bring in real world parallels but it's to bring to light how awful this argument even is.

Kalimdor is massive that’s the problem you don’t seem to grasp that wow is the size of an actual world not the thing you can run across in 20 min in game. The orcs live in a massive desert with other good pieces of land being far away other then night elf lands. The only real options are to run massive supply lines which would be targeted and attacked none stop like what we saw in the battle field barrens or to get resources from the huge forest right next door that some stupid elf’s won’t let you touch.

The horde even tried to make trade deals with the night elf’s but that fell though because of the twilight hammer and then a stupid cow challenging garrosh. That left the orcs high and dry and a point and time where they needed to beef up there defences because the alliance declared war on them and the world it self was breaking open.

Garrosh made the right choice.

[Kyphael]

Kalimdor is massive that’s the problem you don’t seem to grasp that wow is the size of an actual world not the thing you can run across in 20 min in game. The orcs live in a massive desert with other good pieces of land being far away other then night elf lands. The only real options are to run massive supply lines which would be targeted and attacked none stop like what we saw in the battle field barrens or to get resources from the huge forest right next door that some stupid elf’s won’t let you touch.

The horde even tried to make trade deals with the night elf’s but that fell though because of the twilight hammer and then a stupid cow challenging garrosh. That left the orcs high and dry and a point and time where they needed to beef up there defences because the alliance declared war on them and the world it self was breaking open.

Garrosh made the right choice.

The right choice being use his power to subject other Horde races to his prejudice and line up Orcs loyal to him for the slaughter? Now he's six feet under and getting eaten by maggots. Sure seems like running supply lines might have been a better choice than encroaching on enemy territory. I understand Kalimdor is huge, but even in lore, goblins are known to be able to build incredible vehicles and flying machines. That might be a little exaggerated but not to the extent they couldn't possibly maintain a supply line and transport of goods from south of Southern Barrens. Sure that might have been subject to interference and attacks, but it's nothing Orcs couldn't defend, and surely would require less man power than fighting a war. Not to mention if they have ships that can take them to Northrend and Pandaria where they build strongholds, how does that reflect on their poverty back home? They can afford war, send troops oversee, build garrisons, footholds, and feed all troops, but back home they starve.

I'm accepting of the fact the writers chose this retconned plot device to justify Garrosh's power trip, but given player reception to it, and the end result being Garrosh dead, it seemed like even less a good idea to paint Thrall as a failure to prop up Garrosh only to end up with him dead on Nagrand with his face in the mud.

Right choice indeed.