Will the Forsaken die out?

[mickybrighteyes]

It may seem like I'm splitting hairs here... but if Death exists outside the natural cycle of EXISTENCE and the accompanying cosmic forces, doesn't it therefore make it unnatural?

I think this really treads into weird poorly explained areas since death is one of the 6 major cosmic forces of the universe. Chronicle seems to imply Life, Death, Light, Shadow/Void, Order, and Disorder as the major cosmic forces. As for 'natural order' that is another thing subject to one's bias. Keep in mind that most of the mortal races we see are apparent results of outside corruption and mutation that was viewed as a form of abomination such as how the Vrykul viewed what turned out to be humans.

A case can still be made however, that Undead as a race, are the only ones with no future that doesn't involve continuous abuse of the natural order through necromancy to raise "new undead." For example, Void Elves and Worgen are still corrupted and cursed, but they exist within the natural order of things. They still need to breath, drink, and eat to live. They can still pro-create and continue as a species where Undead are not... really a species, or race by anything but game term. It's a state of being, an unnatural one that cannot be continued on its own without persistent meddling with dark powers that defiles both the land and other living organisms around it.

Until otherwise stated it seems that Void Elves and Worgen may not actually produce offspring that are worgen/void elf. The latter seem to convert elves as their main way of recruitment and most of the worgen seem to have been cursed directly rather than born as such.

The main thing about forsaken style undead is that they are functionally identical to golems with a near infinite lifespan assume no negative outside impairment... it's just that they are also subject to various extreme prejudice because 'undeath' (not unlike how you are quick to call them out as unnatural) or that they should seek their own demise in some form.

If existence is defined by the fundamental necessities like eating, drinking, sleeping, and pro-creating, fitting into that ecosystem of the inhabiting planet, what purpose do Undead/zombies/Forsaken fulfill just... being?

Existence isn't defined solely as that except by those wishing to solely focus on such matters. By this logic, none of the titan's original creations seem deserving of existence as well... should they ALL give over to the curse of flesh and other old god corruption because of this narrow definition of 'existence'?

edit:

Actually now looking at the mechagnomes... take a close look at how far along some are with replacing their physical form with mechanical enhancements. Extensive replacement of flesh and bone with metal and wire. Those aren't looking entirely capable of biologically replicating in a 'natural' method either some of the upgrades they seek might actually be something that renders them beyond the 'natural existence' definition you point out as well. Are they less deserving of a future as you seem to find Forsaken?

[Arrashi]

Lore-wise, they should have all lain down to rest at long last after Arthas was put down. But because of game play reasons, they need to continue their agonized, unholy existence to justify how player Undead are still around. That means the next story progression for them is finding a cure for Undeath, which I hope Blizzard does.

Following your logic people should commit suicide once their children are self sufficient.

[Kyphael]

I think this really treads into weird poorly explained areas since death is one of the 6 major cosmic forces of the universe. Chronicle seems to imply Life, Death, Light, Shadow/Void, Order, and Disorder as the major cosmic forces. As for 'natural order' that is another thing subject to one's bias. Keep in mind that most of the mortal races we see are apparent results of outside corruption and mutation that was viewed as a form of abomination such as how the Vrykul viewed what turned out to be humans.


Until otherwise stated it seems that Void Elves and Worgen may not actually produce offspring that are worgen/void elf. The latter seem to convert elves as their main way of recruitment and most of the worgen seem to have been cursed directly rather than born as such.

The main thing about forsaken style undead is that they are functionally identical to golems with a near infinite lifespan assume no negative outside impairment... it's just that they are also subject to various extreme prejudice because 'undeath' (not unlike how you are quick to call them out as unnatural) or that they should seek their own demise in some form.

Existence isn't defined solely as that except by those wishing to solely focus on such matters. By this logic, none of the titan's original creations seem deserving of existence as well... should they ALL give over to the curse of flesh and other old god corruption because of this narrow definition of 'existence'?

I think you accidentally typed in KrakHed's name while quoting me. =P But we've made our cases so I'll just respond to the final bit regarding the Titan's original creations because I knew that was coming. I'm assuming you're referring to the dwarves and gnomes' earliest forms before the Curse of Flesh? Those creations were likely in the Titans' own image. They were then made flesh, which then ironically fit perfectly into the world the Titans had created--Azeroth. I'm aware Death is one of the cosmic forces, but unlike the other forces, it's the only one that alters "living beings" on a level where they're no longer... well, living... Corruptions, curses, describe them as you will, they can alter a being on a biological level, but they're still living. Death is that, and Undeath is an abomination to the living world. Note, even the planet itself is literally alive.

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Following your logic people should commit suicide once their children are self sufficient.

No, not if they can still breathe, eat, and live and make what they can of their "life." Note the word "life." Undeath is unnatural. We've heard a lot about why Undead should exist without explaining the meaning or purpose behind that existence.

[qwerty123456]

actually, by logic, undeads are more "natural" than worgen. i mean, considering that both start from void corrupted beings with their "natural order" being metallic slave automatons for arcane beings.
undeads are basically a parassite specie, where they take other beings and ress them as themself. meanwhile being worgen is really only a curse, they cant really procreate, their offspring is their base form.

basically undeads are unnatural only because "they" said so and they are outside of life and death, but for our "realistic" biology they are simply heavily different form of life

Thats the silliest thing I have ever heard: "The Plague of Undeath[1] (blight[2] or simply the Plague)[3] is a magical affliction first conjured by Ner'zhul, the Lich King (under the direction of the demon lord Kil'jaeden), from his icy prison within the Frozen Throne in Northrend in order to create the Scourge. The Scourge was intended to be a vanguard for the Burning Legion, Ner'zhul's captors, during their attack on Azeroth." Undead are not a parasite species. And considering Worgen can still naturally reproduce (not sure if the babies get the curse so they may just end up humans/elves/etc..) as well as reproduce more worgen through bites I'd say they are more natural then undead who have to infest a person with a magical plague.

As far as we are aware being a worgen doesn't doom you in death like undeath does.

[Maxilian]

For the moment, they are a dying race without Sylvanas, if Calia introduce new undeads, those would look like her, so, in the end, a new type of Forsaken

[mickybrighteyes]

I think you accidentally typed in KrakHed's name while quoting me. =P But we've made our cases so I'll just respond to the final bit regarding the Titan's original creations because I knew that was coming. I'm assuming you're referring to the dwarves and gnomes' earliest forms before the Curse of Flesh? Those creations were likely in the Titans' own image. They were then made flesh, which then ironically fit perfectly into the world the Titans had created--Azeroth. I'm aware Death is one of the cosmic forces, but unlike the other forces, it's the only one that alters "living beings" on a level where they're no longer... well, living... Corruptions, curses, describe them as you will, they can alter a being on a biological level, but they're still living. Death is that, and Undeath is an abomination to the living world. Note, even the planet itself is literally alive.

But you're not exactly explaining how one altered state seems less deserving of it's place as 'existence' and the definition for existence you seem to refer to explicitely doesn't apply to beings crafted by the makers of worlds.... the 'made flesh' part was entirely corruption on the part of powers working against the titans using cosmically opposed forces.

I get you're position vs undeath, but you doa very poor job explaining how it's unique beyond simply saying it's undeath and therefore worse. How is undeath different from stormforged/titanforged? Other soul based entities molded onto constructs? Should the likes of the Valarjar also consign themselves to an end of their own existence?

You seem biased against a specific cosmic force depicted because of the domain it covers and that's about it.

[Arrashi]

No, not if they can still breathe, eat, and live and make what they can of their "life." Note the word "life." Undeath is unnatural. We've heard a lot about why Undead should exist without explaining the meaning or purpose behind that existence.

And what is meaning of human existence past passing their genes?

[Raetary]

No, not if they can still breathe, eat, and live and make what they can of their "life." Note the word "life." Undeath is unnatural. We've heard a lot about why Undead should exist without explaining the meaning or purpose behind that existence.

Why do they need a purpose to begin with?

[Kyphael]

And what is meaning of human existence past passing their genes?

From a heliocentric point of view, the only purpose of existence is pro-creation to continue the species. From a geocentric point of view, you find your own meaning.

...I know where this is going, Undead fall into the geocentric point of view. Sure, that flies if we lived in a geocentric universe. But we know the sun doesn't revolve around the Earth.

[Arrashi]

From a heliocentric point of view, the only purpose of existence is pro-creation to continue the species. From a geocentric point of view, you find your own meaning.

...I know where this is going, Undead fall into the geocentric point of view. Sure, that flies if we lived in a geocentric universe. But we know the sun doesn't revolve around the Earth.

So what you are saying is that azeroth humans (and all other races) should commit suicide once they had children and all incapable of procreation should be killed on spot?

[Kyphael]

But you're not exactly explaining how one altered state seems less deserving of it's place as 'existence' and the definition for existence you seem to refer to explicitely doesn't apply to beings crafted by the makers of worlds.... the 'made flesh' part was entirely corruption on the part of powers working against the titans using cosmically opposed forces.

I get you're position vs undeath, but you doa very poor job explaining how it's unique beyond simply saying it's undeath and therefore worse. How is undeath different from stormforged/titanforged? Other soul based entities molded onto constructs? Should the likes of the Valarjar also consign themselves to an end of their own existence?

You seem biased against a specific cosmic force depicted because of the domain it covers and that's about it.

It's hard to make a convincing argument for it when Blizzard has done so poorly to properly explain the intricacies of death, afterlife, its cosmic and spiritual realms. My argument against Undeath boils down to real world parallels because that's all I have to go by. The Forsaken had their chance at existence. They started off as something, and their time expired, for better or worse, as unfair as it was. They entered into a state described by their leader as eternal damnation. They will suffer in the Shadowlands for it.

Your argument is advocating for zombies or undead to have a place in the world among the living, be it intelligent Undead or not. That's macabre. Soul-based constructs exist as they were intended by design. Yes, humans, dwarves, and gnomes are by products of curses and other external forces as well, but those changes didn't make them parasitic. Undeath defiles the very land Undead walk, withering it away. Look at the Plaguelands. It's a burden on the planet and other living organisms.

Even in media when Undead were depicted as somewhat sympathetic like in [film] Warm Bodies, it came with a cure. If Undead just want to exist "because" without contributing anything to the world around them, but in fact defiling it as their very presence does, it then becomes an infestation that can't be justified unless you really just like the playable race.

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So what you are saying is that azeroth humans (and all other races) should commit suicide once they had children and all incapable of procreation should be killed on spot?

No, it's a blanket statement but doesn't apply to every single individual. I'm not for example, saying Lillian Voss should drop dead, she could be the exception, but by and large, The Undead as a "race" doesn't have a purpose, and you've yet to explain what their purpose to "exist" is. Mortal races pass on their genes or teachings. Undead can't pro-create. What teachings will they pass on? "Death sucks. Don't die. Or you burn in hell. Can I eat you, now?"

[Varodoc]

I concede to your point that Forsaken are no more in continuous mental anguish and pain than Void Elves and Worgen, you make a good point.

The difference is that the void elves can train to reduce the power of those whispers. The undead cannot do anything to reduce their pain and sadness.

[mickybrighteyes]

It's hard to make a convincing argument for it when Blizzard has done so poorly to properly explain the intricacies of death, afterlife, its cosmic and spiritual realms. My argument against Undeath boils down to real world parallels because that's all I have to go by. The Forsaken had their chance at existence. They started off as something, and their time expired, for better or worse, as unfair as it was. They entered into a state described by their leader as eternal damnation. They will suffer in the Shadowlands for it.

Your argument is advocating for zombies or undead to have a place in the world among the living, be it intelligent Undead or not. That's macabre. Soul-based constructs exist as they were intended by design. Yes, humans, dwarves, and gnomes are by products of curses and other external forces as well, but those changes didn't make them parasitic. Undeath defiles the very land Undead walk, withering it away. Look at the Plaguelands. It's a burden on the planet and other living organisms.

Even in media when Undead were depicted as somewhat sympathetic like in [film] Warm Bodies, it came with a cure. If Undead just want to exist "because" without contributing anything to the world around them, but in fact defiling it as their very presence does, it then becomes an infestation that can't be justified unless you really just like the playable race.

My position argues that undeath as we see it is just anotehr variation of magically altered being. You seem to mark is as a very disntinct and exclusive variant because it is undeath. IMO using it as an end for the previous form of existence isn't anything different from any other fundamentally altered being and saying this variation is less deserving of existence because of your own narrow view of what justifies existence is... well retarded.

The curse of flesh for example fundamentally altered teh original titan creations and their entire existences, so should the spawn that resulted from THAT alteration also be consigned to destruction because some entity views it as an abomination (like what could have happened with ulduar?)... if not, then why should the Forsaken or undead be? You don't really offer anything except saying undeath isn't natural. Neither was the curse of flesh. They don't breath, eat, copulate? Neither did those previous existences.

IMO your view is really biased, overly specific, and you fail to provide any real reason except for circular logic saying undeath is bad because undead.

edit:

also you fail to really explain the purpose of existence and why it is as you believe. Why should the draenei exist? They had their time, their people sold themselves to the devil and those who disagreed fled to lead their fallen brethren across the universe.


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The difference is that the void elves can train to reduce the power of those whispers. The undead cannot do anything to reduce their pain and sadness.

citation need.

[tromage2]

Under Calia they will 100% die out since they will not be able to replace bodyparts anymore since the flow of dead humans that they can use will stop.
This is why Calia is a stupid choice to lead them since by following her they signed their doom and have no future.

[cparle87]

Most Forsaken hate their existence, describing it as cold, dark, cut from emotions and so on. At several times it was Sylvanas alone who wanted the Forsaken to live eternally (well, mostly herself ofc), while several of her subjects would have welcomed their final death.

Which raises the question of how many of them know what is awaiting them? Did Sylvanas tell anyone, even Nathanos, that because their souls have been twisted by undeath they're going to end up in a black, empty wasteland of nothingness for all eternity instead of whatever afterlife they've been hopeful of to be with their loved ones?

[Arrashi]

No, it's a blanket statement but doesn't apply to every single individual. I'm not for example, saying Lillian Voss should drop dead, she could be the exception, but by and large, The Undead as a "race" doesn't have a purpose, and you've yet to explain what their purpose to "exist" is. Mortal races pass on their genes or teachings. Undead can't pro-create. What teachings will they pass on? "Death sucks. Don't die. Or you burn in hell. Can I eat you, now?"

I dunno, eating human meat and experimenting on innocents sound like good reasons to keep going.

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Under Calia they will 100% die out since they will not be able to replace bodyparts anymore since the flow of dead humans that they can use will stop.
This is why Calia is a stupid choice to lead them since by following her they signed their doom and have no future.

Unless we use calia for spare parts.

[Kyphael]

My position argues that undeath as we see it is just anotehr variation of magically altered being. You seem to mark is as a very disntinct and exclusive variant because it is undeath. IMO using it as an end for the previous form of existence isn't anything different from any other fundamentally altered being and saying this variation is less deserving of existence because of your own narrow view of what justifies existence is... well retarded.

The curse of flesh for example fundamentally altered teh original titan creations and their entire existences, so should the spawn that resulted from THAT alteration also be consigned to destruction because some entity views it as an abomination (like what could have happened with ulduar?)... if not, then why should the Forsaken or undead be? You don't really offer anything except saying undeath isn't natural. Neither was the curse of flesh. They don't breath, eat, copulate? Neither did those previous existences.

IMO your view is really biased, overly specific, and you fail to provide any real reason except for circular logic saying undeath is bad because undead.

edit:

also you fail to really explain the purpose of existence and why it is as you believe. Why should the draenei exist? They had their time, their people sold themselves to the devil and those who disagreed fled to lead their fallen brethren across the universe.


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citation need.

You do realize that your whole argument boils down to rotting corpses should get to continue to exist, right? Even within a fictional universe, that's kind of... "retarded." You keep drawing parallels to the curse of flesh which is Blizzard's mechanical solution at Darwinism. "Dwarves and gnomes came from Titan constructs." You advocate the continued, justifiable existence of undead by quantifying to "well dwarves used to be made of stone, and gnomes metal!" They existed as constructs before, they were biologically-altered to being of flesh, and adapted and evolved to live within the changing planet around them. The "curse" of flesh made them into living beings by definition. It was an alternation, whereas Undead literally EXPIRED, and got brought back, NOT REVIVED, brought back, as aberrations.

I made my argument regarding how Undead do not fit into the planet they inhabit, and you've addressed no points to counter how they don't defile the very land they exist on, the point of their existence, and how they're not unnatural to the world and not parasitic. You keep quantifying their existence to other mechanically-altered species who past their alterations still did adapt and evolve to play a role in the ecological system they inhabit. Either counter those points successfully, or don't bother retorting, at this point you keep repeating the same things over and over regarding "just cause it's a cosmic force, it makes it natural!" A cosmic force categorized similarly to others can still be unnatural and parasitic to the others. If anything, they're presented as OPPOSITES, meaning, not meant to mingle. A Void Elf STRUGGLES with the void, it is not consumed by it. A dwarf altered by the curse of flesh on a biological level does not make it a VOID CREATURE just because said curse was created by a being that came from the Void.

Getting to the point of the purpose of life, I'll break it down to you again, and again, rebuke these at any point.

YOU, exist, to pro-create. That is your purpose in life, and any other living organism's from a heliocentric point of view, on the most biological level, whether you accept that or not, the human race exists to pro-create and keep the race going.

Your ambitions, hopes and dreams exist in a geocentric point of view, meaning they are important to you, but not to nature, meaning everything every person does isn't important. It's important you now, but it won't be after you or I are long gone. That means again, you exist solely to pro-create. You are not OBLIGATED to do so, and many individual humans don't, thanks to free will, but the vast majority of the human race DOES, thus fulfilling that purpose. You live, you have babies, you die. Some just live and die and don't care to pass on their genetic make up. Nature doesn't care, most do. That is the meaning of life--pro-creation.

Undead cannot pro-create. They cannot eat, they cannot drink, they exist outside the circle, and serve no purpose other than "I was alive... I got memories, life was good, warm, now I'm Undead... I don't want to die, I'll suffer, so I don't want to." *shrug*

THAT'S IT. That's what Undead do. The ones who serve a purpose are meat shields in war that protect the living. Hopefully those that do maybe will escape the supposed inescapable fate Sylvanas saw, we don't know, Blizzard hasn't explained how the afterlife works, they barely have their shit together regarding how the cosmic forces all work. It doesn't mean Undeath isn't the opposite, unnatural end result that is counter to everything else.

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I dunno, eating human meat and experimenting on innocents sound like good reasons to keep going.

At least you have a sense of humor about it. lol

[Arrashi]

At least you have a sense of humor about it. lol

I dunno, it beats growing old and being hinderance.

[mickybrighteyes]

You do realize that your whole argument boils down to rotting corpses should get to continue to exist, right?

They are sentient, have their own thoughts, speak of their own accord and exhibit free will...

a bit more than mere rotting corpses but thank you for showing how you boil them down to JUST that.

edit:

you define life as your existence is to procreate... that's fine if that's your interpretation, but that isn't the be all end all and you saying anything different is wrong is incredibly, arrogant, pompous and well... rubs me the wrong way. You then make points that boil down to "well tough shit your luck ran out so you don't deserve to exist anymore" is also troubling to me. Why does this not hold water to discuss the resultant cursed entities that turned into something else? Apparently only because those other alterations fit with your bias and you argument to refute is that you find my argument for 'corpses' is wrong. You are the one stripping the group of anything beyond their physical appearance and disregarding everything except for your idea of biological imperative.

[Kyphael]

They are sentient, have their own thoughts, speak of their own accord and exhibit free will...

a bit more than mere rotting corpses but thank you for showing how you boil them down to JUST that.

edit:

you define life as your existence is to procreate... that's fine if that's your interpretation, but that isn't the be all end all and you saying anything different is wrong is incredibly, arrogant, pompous and well... rubs me the wrong way. You then make points that boil down to "well tough shit your luck ran out so you don't deserve to exist anymore" is also troubling to me. Why does this not hold water to discuss the resultant cursed entities that turned into something else? Apparently only because those other alterations fit with your bias and you argument to refute is that you find my argument for 'corpses' is wrong. You are the one stripping the group of anything beyond their physical appearance and disregarding everything except for your idea of biological imperative.

It seems we've reached a wall and best to agree to disagree at this point as we have differing views on every facet of this discussion.