Sadly looking like Tinkers could become a reality.

[Ielenia]

Im 100% sure, that he wasn't simply for that fact which i pointed out: being a rich landowner.

Ok, and how does "being a rich landowner" somehow precludes him being a paladin?

Im also aware of this old lore, but that might have been already retconned without them informing us about it.

In that case, we should treat it as canon lore until we find a Blizzard statement where they retcon said lore.

[mauserr]

I fucking hope not.

[W1shm4ster]

Ok, and how does "being a rich landowner" somehow precludes him being a paladin?

I explained that in my original post.

[Sundreamer]

Warden would still be a better option though.

why not both?

i mean just imagine having 2 classes added at once. but i feel like they should revamp the outlaw spec again and turn it into a warden spec. maybe they'll add the speculated class skins and the warden could become a class skin of a hunter or rogue spec for night elves

[Ielenia]

I explained that in my original post.

You said that he wasn't a paladin "because he wasn't devoted to his order and teachings and wouldn't own land", but I don't think I've ever heard that paladins cannot own land. As for "being devoted to his order and teachings", didn't Tirion Fordring actually own land? He was the lord of Mardenholde Keep in Hearthglen, and was exiled from his order after defending Eitrigg, but didn't stop being a paladin because he went against his order's teachings.

[Shelly]

Then perhaps Teriz should refrain from making positive claims about things he has no way of proving.


Rivendare lacks that descriptor in his bio, true, but then we have Warcraft lore telling us that death knights prior to Arthas' ascension to the Frozen Throne were paladins. From that we can infer that Rivendare likely was a paladin, since became a death knight.

It's basically explained away in the Redpath questline in Eastern Plaguelands that there are several types of DK and while the original Lore was that the DKs of WC3 were living fallen paladins who fell so deep into despair that they gave in to the darkness they had been fighting, the Redpath questline as well as our own player character DK origins is that any sufficiently powerful character can be resurrected into a death knight and simply be a supremely powerful agent of the scourge and personal agent of the Lich King himself.

[Dragtox]

why not both?

i mean just imagine having 2 classes added at once. but i feel like they should revamp the outlaw spec again and turn it into a warden spec. maybe they'll add the speculated class skins and the warden could become a class skin of a hunter or rogue spec for night elves

i think class skin wuld be a mistake its better to make sub classes with 1 spec i think outlaw and the changes survival hunter got now should combind to be a pirat class while rouge should get a knife throwing based spec

yes i think the way survival hunter plays right now dont fit survival name and can work fine with pirat class even without pet you are throwing bombs and harpoons its pretty much perfect pirat spec

warden can stand alone as a sub class with 1 spec like dark ranger

tinker and necromancer is probly the 2 classes that got more spec options

then hunters survival spec should change to equip duel wield weapon and ranged weapon but get its poison, oil, fire, traps, nature and be more fast phased spec that can attack fine in meele and ranged

i dont think sub class with 1 spec should be big problem tho more easy to balance in pvp and better reason to lvl up new char like allied race

with the lvl 60 max lvl squish it wont really be alot problem lvl new class from 1-20 and up

[Amnaught]

"Vulpera"

"Races that would additionally make sense to have as tinkers"

Uh, what?

[Teriz]

Frostmourne's power did. Not Arthas.

Didn't he also use Frostmourne to raise the player DKs as well?

Who said anything about blood magic?

I did.

"In life, Baron Rivendare was a rich landowner in Stratholme and a friend to Kel'Thuzad who convinced him to join the Cult of the Damned.[1] During the Third War, after Arthas Menethil left for Northrend to hunt Mal'Ganis, Rivendare sent a shipment of grain to a village of Lordaeron where Thomas Thomson happened to be stationed at. When the villagers turned into mindless zombies, Thomas understood that Rivendare was a traitor and reported it to the rest of the Silver Hand paladins.[3] Rivendare eventually became a death knight and was placed in control of the burning remains of Stratholme.[1] When he became a champion of the Scourge, he condemned his favorite horse to join him in undeath.[4] At some point, he held Ysida Harmon captive."

Where, anywhere in that sentence, says that Rivendare was not a paladin? Paladins can do evil things.

He's not a Paladin because it's never metioned that he is a paladin, ever. Instead it explicitly says that he was an aristocrat who got turned.

He was the exception, not the rule.

The exception that makes your entire argument about DKs null and void.

A claim of "false" without actually offering any evidence is meaningless, Teriz. You're just basically handwaving evidence. I mean, look at how the Death Knight Captain mob was before and after WotLK. How the Death Knight Understudy was before and after. How the Death Knight Captain was before and after.

You said that DKs didn't have Necromancy before WotLK (including Unholy). That was false.

Achievement such as... freeing his family's brewery from a hozen invasion? Nice, but meaningless in the expansion's main story.

Didn't he rescue Voljin after Dagger in the Dark, help him heal, and help Voljin and Thrall at multiple points during the Darkspear rebellion?

[Revamp Man]

How on earth would wardens be better? Wardens are rogues.

Anyways i am not convinced. It was definitly a positive step cause even the shadowlands leak map is now proven false. The complete shadowlands thing was a complete hoax.
So, Sylvanas is still out there and dark rangers could still be a thing, but without the shadowlands backdrop it becomes less likely.

So, if the next xpac ends up being something like a world revamp, Tinkers could easily fit. Fingers crossed. After the alliance was shafted again with allied races (how are sethrak not the counterpart to vulpera?), Tinker class is a requirement if they want me to come back.

If the next expansion has a revamp literally any class can fit

[W1shm4ster]

You said that he wasn't a paladin "because he wasn't devoted to his order and teachings and wouldn't own land", but I don't think I've ever heard that paladins cannot own land. As for "being devoted to his order and teachings", didn't Tirion Fordring actually own land? He was the lord of Mardenholde Keep in Hearthglen, and was exiled from his order after defending Eitrigg, but didn't stop being a paladin because he went against his order's teachings.

Can you at least quote me properly? I said with becoming rich and so on, he can't really be a paladin because he wouldn't have time to be devoted to his order or the teachings. How do you think he would accomplish all that, while still out their fighting being a paladin?

Being the Lord over a certain part of land or region can often come with accomplishments in battle or by ranks and what he is lord of. Heathglen as an example is a military keep, so you can't really count that as owning and more of being the appointed lord to it.

Also you take my stuff completly out of context, i never said he can't be a paladin anymore just for not being in the order anymore, but everyone of them started out as a member of the silver hand and their teachings, being expelled from it only makes you not a member anymore, but you went through all the things before in order to offically become a paladin.

You should see it in the amount of time required to become a rich landowner, which he doesn't have as being a paladin. You are military and a devoted believer. You lead other military as being generally higher rank as most of them, your entire work is being military and religious motivated. There would never be time to suddenly getting rich and becoming a landowner AND manage Stratholme at the same time. This is not really possible.

Sorry, but Rivendare just never was a paladin. He might be an oversight by creating him and making him a death knight, but he clearly is not. I mean you could also just try your lucker and twitter one of them Blizzard lore people and ask them about it, but everything points to just being a rich noble.

[Sevarin]

So you dont understand that when they're talking about Goblin Tinkers they're talking about Gazlowe as well?

Okay then....

someone else that doesnt read. fine, well go through this again.

so you dont understand that when theyre talking about chief engineer, theyre specifically talking about Gazlowe?

okay then....

also, HotS lore is NOT canon to begin with so... treating it as such is folly. https://wow.gamepedia.com/Lore

starting to think youre just the other guy on a different account. ive agreed to, and bolded the fact that... you know what.... you arent worth it. im done. tinkers as a class are trash. youve convinced me. if all you can do is try to pick apart my post, incorrectly, i might add. then... well hell, you must be an irl tinker. unskilled repairs on my already existing posts. you dont need it in game.

[Ielenia]

Didn't he also use Frostmourne to raise the player DKs as well?

Uncertain as we are never shown us being risen.

I did.

So a meaningless mention that has nothing to do with what is being discussed?

He's not a Paladin because it's never metioned that he is a paladin, ever. Instead it explicitly says that he was an aristocrat who got turned.

I also don't think I have ever seen any mention that Gazlowe or Siegecrafter Blackfuse being tinkers. That aside, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".

The exception that makes your entire argument about DKs null and void.

No, it doesn't. If anything, he heavily supports the argument for being such an exception in a myriad of death knights.

You said that DKs didn't have Necromancy before WotLK (including Unholy). That was false.

I did not said that. I said they did not have frost or blood powers, and such abilities were retroactively added to them when death knights became a playable class. And it's what I believe will happen to current dark rangers: banshee powers, and/or whatever new powers Blizzard decides to give them if they introduce them as a playable class, will be retroactively added to the current dark rangers.

Didn't he rescue Voljin after Dagger in the Dark, help him heal, and help Voljin and Thrall at multiple points during the Darkspear rebellion?

Admittedly, I forgot about that. But even then, it's still a minor thing considering it happened mostly in the background, as you only saw it once or twice. Nowhere near like all the involvement the Lich King and Illidan had on "their" expansions, i.e., Wrath and Legion.

- - - Updated - - -

Can you at least quote me properly? I said with becoming rich and so on, he can't really be a paladin because he wouldn't have time to be devoted to his order or the teachings. How do you think he would accomplish all that, while still out their fighting being a paladin?

Being the Lord over a certain part of land or region can often come with accomplishments in battle or by ranks and what he is lord of. Heathglen as an example is a military keep, so you can't really count that as owning and more of being the appointed lord to it.

Also you take my stuff completly out of context, i never said he can't be a paladin anymore just for not being in the order anymore, but everyone of them started out as a member of the silver hand and their teachings, being expelled from it only makes you not a member anymore, but you went through all the things before in order to offically become a paladin.

You should see it in the amount of time required to become a rich landowner, which he doesn't have as being a paladin. You are military and a devoted believer. You lead other military as being generally higher rank as most of them, your entire work is being military and religious motivated. There would never be time to suddenly getting rich and becoming a landowner AND manage Stratholme at the same time. This is not really possible.

Sorry, but Rivendare just never was a paladin. He might be an oversight by creating him and making him a death knight, but he clearly is not. I mean you could also just try your lucker and twitter one of them Blizzard lore people and ask them about it, but everything points to just being a rich noble.

I'm pretty sure land can often be given as rewards for great deeds, and taken as spoils as well, at least it's how it was during the medieval ages, in real life. Nothing about Baron Rivendare... being rich, being a landowner, managing Stratholme, none of that precludes him from being or having been a paladin.

[Wyrt]

There are friendly mogu in 8.3. Therefore mogu will be a playable neutral race and the new class will be Soulbinders for mogu, draenei, and trolls.

[Teriz]

So a meaningless mention that has nothing to do with what is being discussed?

My point was that draining life via blood magic is Necromancy.

I also don't think I have ever seen any mention that Gazlowe or Siegecrafter Blackfuse being tinkers. That aside, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".

Gazlowe has been getting pushed into that role by Blizzard for a few years now. That's quite a bit different than Rivendare who was a land owning aristocrat and not a Paladin.

No, it doesn't. If anything, he heavily supports the argument for being such an exception in a myriad of death knights.

It does because you said that exception never existed.

I did not said that.

Yes you did:

It's hard for you, apparently, as you're using hindsight on this. Death knights, before Wrath, were not the "masters of necromancy". They were literally warriors with shadow powers. Not a single death knight would rise even a single skeleton, back during vanilla WoW. The only ones who did were necromancers. Only when they were introduced as a playable class that the other death knights got retroactively fitted with the class' powers.

There is no such thing. The only thing Blizzard has "established" is that death knights that the Lich King rose were simply warriors with shadow powers. Not even a hint of necromancy as none of them had anything necromancy-related, and we had necromancy abilities in WoW even in vanilla. Which means, judging by how the death knights were presented in vanilla WoW, they were lesser versions of the death knights we saw back in WC3, since they couldn't even raise the dead.

Admittedly, I forgot about that. But even then, it's still a minor thing considering it happened mostly in the background, as you only saw it once or twice. Nowhere near like all the involvement the Lich King and Illidan had on "their" expansions, i.e., Wrath and Legion.

The point is that Chen had a big role in MoP, and a big presence since he was the archetypal pandaren and Monk. If Dark Rangers are the next class, then Sylvanas will have to play a large part in the next expansion.

- - - Updated - - -

There are friendly mogu in 8.3. Therefore mogu will be a playable neutral race and the new class will be Soulbinders for mogu, draenei, and trolls.

Except Mechagnomes are already an allied race, and they could use a Tinker class.

[Teriz]

No, I don't think so here's a link to all box cover arts for all expansions and Sylvanas isnt on one of them

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Box_art

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/

[Teriz]

Thats concept art not game covers, there's a difference.

That's not concept art. Follow the link to the bottom of the page. Its official promotional art for the expansion used for marketing and sales.

[Teriz]

But it's not box art covers, it#s promotional material thats completely different to what you originally sad, your stretching just to try and deny people.

Uh, I'm not stretching anything. Games like WoW are mainly sold via digital these days, so when you go to Blizzard's site and look up BFA (the link I gave you), you'll see the pictures I posted. The bottom picture especially.

Honestly at this point alone you are making me hope Tinkers don't become available because you are one of the most selfish people I#ve met thus far.

So pointing out that Sylvanas is featured prominently on the covers and promotional material, as well as having the entire expansion being about her makes me selfish? LoL! okay.

The alternative to Tinkers is a Hunter/Rogue rehash or a DK/Warlock rehash. Let's hope that Tinkers are the next class for the sake of the class lineup.

[Teriz]

Let's not, and Sylvanas is not prominently featured pushing that narrative is self denial and no not just pointing out Sylvanas is selfish its the way you speak to people and your attitude over the whole matter, it's disgusting.

So you believe that Sylvanas isn't featured prominently throughout BFA promotional material and throughout the expansion itself?

Wow, denial isnt just a river in Egypt.

[Teriz]

Nice... well I played mostly alliance and I only just recently returned to the game and my horde is lvl 34 but from what i remember of the beta playing horde Sylvanas wasn't overly present and she definitely hasn't been overly present as an alliance character, Her presence was more felt in Legion than thus far in Bfa...

Laughable. You do know that BFA literally started with the burning of the NE's home by Sylvanas right? After that, the entire expansion has been nothing but our characters dealing with Sylvanas' schemes and machinations. Seriously, the only aspect of BFA I can think of where Sylvanas wasn't directly or indirectly involved in was Mechagon.

Your ignorance of the events of BFA doesn't change the facts.

Seriously though because of you and only you /down with Tinkers at this point I#d rather have any other class than that one now because you've done my head in with them.

Thanks for sharing.