new forsaken leader spoilers

[Traveler Voltin]

Derek was raised just like a normal forsaken. Forsaken care about friends/family which is why the non undead humans hating/abandoning them was so hurting and such a major part of the race(hint its even in their name).


You chose to believe it was about Anduin. Plenty of people believed it was Wrathion and they turned out right.

derek was raised to be a tool not to be a forsaken.

[qwerty123456]

Except the experience that shaped the Forsaken into what they are now is what happened to them from the moment of their death onward... To which racial barriers are irrelevant. Sylvanas went through the same experience after death they did. And really, trying to hang onto her social position before her death? Is Alexi Barrov less of a Forsaken because he came from a very wealthy noble family? And the Scourge didn't discriminate. It incorporated civilians and soldiers alike. And civilians and soldiers alike then broke from the Lich King's grasp. They are all equally Forsaken.

Also, Sylvanas was forced to take part in Scourge's attack on the Sunwell. The High Elves defending it fought her just like the humans fought other Forsaken. She personally witnessed the death of Anasterian, meaning she was close to him when he died. And had Arthas not challenged him directly, chances are Sylvanas would have been forced to fight him just as she was forced to fight other Elves. And despite Sylvanas' appearance (which isn't really unique because Forsaken are preserved in the state they were resurrected in so if they were resurrected immediately and weren't mangled when killed they looked just fine) Blood Elves ignored her attempt to reach out just like humans ignored the Forsaken as a whole.


She wasn't just worshipepd by the undead? Yeah, the undead did and felt multiple different things towards her than worship. How is that relevant to your argument? And given how Arthas wiped out 90% of the Thalassian race, rethink those numbers. And Sylvanas was forced to fight High Elves resurrected by the Scourge. Being forced to fight your friends and loved ones because of the Scourge isn't magically unique to humans because the Scourge used the same exact tactic wherever it went. And Vereesa was interested in reuniting with Sylvanas over a decade after Quel'Thalas fell, so what were you saying about not getting to see one's family for years/decades, again?

It's not her social position. Its me saying she is a fighter from a completely different race who was attacked by a human in a battle while most forsaken were scrub civilians. You don't think thats a different experience then having your sister rip your throat out? It wasn't someone she loved nor was it a member of her own race. Yes she was forced to fight former friends just like every original forsaken. But a couple similar experiences doesn't mean she is exactly the same. Especially when she so easily abandoned them and has been using them as pawns to keep herself alive since vanilla.

You know I men't 99% of the living people(very few are high elves, most are blood elves). And I mean other races other than undead worship her. More so when she was warchief. She has had more love thrown at her than any couple thousand forsaken would ever hope to have. And could go back to the now blood elves any time she wanted after they joined the Horde. How many forsaken are allowed to go to Stormwind? Hell even if they wanted to visit a living family member and the Alliance let them Sylvanas would kill them claiming them as a threat even if they were some random cheese vendor.

Derek being raised just like a normal Forsaken doesn't make him Forsaken. Voss was raised the same way, she only joined in BfA. Rotbrain were raised the same way, they never joined. Just like Derek. And since Derek is neither a friend nor family to any known Forsaken, your remark here is an utter non-sequitur to the point you responded to.

You mean just like every new forsaken that never had a chance to see their family because they were conscripted into the Horde and never experienced the same shit the original forsaken did? You claim all forsaken share this same experience when the majority who were attacked by the scarlet crusade, shunned by their families, etc... are likely dead by now from all the wars and shit. Did you forget that Sylvanas keeps raising new people?

They turned out right? What lies did Wrathion tell us, again?

Is wrathion serving at the masters table in the raid? Who knows what lies he told? Because the main lie I hear about Anduin was about Sylvanas saying Anduin thinks that killing Rastakhan was a victory for the Alliance when he himself says he thinks it may have just made the Horde stronger.

derek was raised to be a tool not to be a forsaken.

All forsaken are raised to be tools. And do you think average joe forsaken knows
Sylvanas's plans?

[omeomorfismo]

It's been 15 years so I'll admit I don't remember much but I don't remember there being a mention of joining or becoming dead again until they changed the zones.

And Cata isn't the start of the forsaken race.

Forsaken don't care about others? I'm pretty sure there are many quests where you help people....



You are proving my point exactly. Being a football player then retiring and becoming an owner means you were a football player. Being a Tech guy and owning a football team doesn't mean you are a football player. Its the experience. Just because someone had a somewhat similar experience of being a rugby player doesn't mean they become a football player when they own a football team.

Sylvanas was an elite ranger from a totally different race that had no real connection to the light. Most forsaken are civilian humans whose entire life pretty much revolved around the light. Sylvanas became a Banshee and gained vast powers while all other Forsaken are basically were just regular zombies. She was attacked by former humans and some dead elves lead by a human. Everyone that attacked the Forsaken were their former friends, family, and prince. She then kept her beauty while everyone else was forced to be rotten bags of flesh who repulsed people when they looked at them. They also looked no different from the scourge so of course any humans would freak out while Sylvanas looked like an elf.

i dont know if it is worse compare a football club to an army/nation or saying that high elven didnt have connection with the light, when they thaught to human the light in first place

oh, and forsaken arent all zombie, there are abominations, banshees (like you know, sylvanas), i think even some sentient skeleton and ghouls
and she didnt kepts her beauty, arthas did, and still her body is cracked as all embalmed corpses

[qwerty123456]

i dont know if it is worse compare a football club to an army/nation or saying that high elven didnt have connection with the light, when they thaught to human the light in first place

oh, and forsaken arent all zombie, there are abominations, banshees (like you know, sylvanas), i think even some sentient skeleton and ghouls
and she didnt kepts her beauty, arthas did, and still her body is cracked as all embalmed corpses

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Church_of_the_Holy_Light

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Light

Here's some reading you need to do ^.

Yes there are some forsaken that aren't basic forsaken but they aren't playable and waaaay less common.

[sam86]

You chose to believe it was about Anduin. Plenty of people believed it was Wrathion and they turned out right.

the '3 lies' line is considered now a bullsh8t line, it pissed me off because i loved to spectate about what old gods 'prophecies' mean, but seem that some of them are bullsh8t, which make it worthless to even check new lines because who knows what will be true and what will be bullsh8t
no the 3 lies don't refer to anduin or wrathion or even Timmy the cruel, they refer to blizz sh8t writing and how they keep try to not f8ck it but they f8ck it even more because wow has to stay as mmo and they are forced to f8ck the story for gameplay reasons

[qwerty123456]

the '3 lies' line is considered now a bullsh8t line, it pissed me off because i loved to spectate about what old gods 'prophecies' mean, but seem that some of them are bullsh8t, which make it worthless to even check new lines because who knows what will be true and what will be bullsh8t
no the 3 lies don't refer to anduin or wrathion or even Timmy the cruel, they refer to blizz sh8t writing and how they keep try to not f8ck it but they f8ck it even more because wow has to stay as mmo and they are forced to f8ck the story for gameplay reasons

Why is it considered a bullshit line. Do you have any proof? And the story has been fucked for gameplay reasons since forever. Realistically the war wouldn't have lasted this long either one side would have beat the other into submission or they would have stopped fighting long ago because it was pointless and they always work together to take on a big bad. The faction conflict has been the single worst story destroying plot in the entirety of WoW.

[Wildberry]

The faction conflict has been the single worst story destroying plot in the entirety of WoW.

Why do people keep posting this nonsense in the post-WoD world? Much of the non-faction related conflict we've seen in the past few years has been incredibly weak.

Blizzard is really just failing at basic storytelling in general. To try and pin this all on "Faction War bad" is a pretty ignorant take.

[qwerty123456]

Why do people keep posting this nonsense in the post-WoD world? Much of the non-faction related conflict we've seen in the past few years has been incredibly weak.

Blizzard is really just failing at basic storytelling in general. To try and pin this all on "Faction War bad" is a pretty ignorant take.

How many games have had successful decades long storlines involving 2 different people joining together to fight a greater threat?

Now tell me how many games have had successfully pulled off decades of conflict between two player factions?

You write a plausible and good storyline for 20 + years of faction conflict that wont upset either of the factions and I'll fund the development of that into a game.

How the fuck can you have constant conflict with no sides winning? Unless you tell faction x "don't worry guys 3 expansions from now you will turn it around and start beating back the other guys until they are the underdogs 5 expansions from now." you are going to have people dropping like flies and even then you will still have people quitting. No one wants to keep being on the losing side and no one will think any of the losses/wins are even. And how do you explain the constant influx of new soldiers to kill? It's not a realistic scenario eventually one side needs to win or both sides need to end the conflict. What countries in real life have stayed enemies and continually have wars for the entirety of their existence?

Look at ESO and SWTOR they repeatedly need to have everyone working together because you can't maintain a perma conflict between player factions. I'm sure there are other faction games but those are the two I remembered offhand. The mother fucking Empire and Republic have worked together......

[Wildberry]

@qwerty123456 Go back and reread my post. Great job dodging the point.

[bmjclark]

First the horde have 2 of their warchiefs turn into raving lunatics then they STEAL an alliance leader? Well this is horde favoritism if ive ever seen it.

[Fetus Rex]

Maybe this guy? Found it on wowhead.

Looks like revived Arthas to me. Mangled mug, dead eyes, light hair but not totally white.

[qwerty123456]

@qwerty123456 Go back and reread my post. Great job dodging the point.

I'm not dodging the point. You claim the faction conflict stuff has been good when it makes no logical sense. I explained why you can't have a game continue on with faction conflict when players are the factions. You are just trying to dodge my points.

How much of WoD storyline is directly because of the needed faction conflict? Do you really think Garrosh would have been the warchief if the faction conflict didnt exist? Everything in the game is due to Blizzard choosing to have pvp and 2 factions. If there was one, 3, 7, 22 etc factions the entire story would be different.

Sure maybe they would have created a Garrosh to go back in time to obsess over his daddy if there was no faction conflict but to claim it is the worst storyline in wow when it at least makes some sense no matter how convoluted it is compared to the continual faction shit.

The fact of the matter is the non-faction shit has to fit the faction conflict storyline.

[KrakHed]

Why do people keep posting this nonsense in the post-WoD world? Much of the non-faction related conflict we've seen in the past few years has been incredibly weak.

Blizzard is really just failing at basic storytelling in general. To try and pin this all on "Faction War bad" is a pretty ignorant take.

Non-faction war stuff has been weak, but the faction war is extremely destructive. People prefer weak story to story that destroys everything it touches.

[Grazrug]

Forsaken dying out would be a good thing to protect them from the horrors Calia and her light redemption shiz would do to their theme and story.

- - - Updated - - -

How many games have had successful decades long storlines involving 2 different people joining together to fight a greater threat?

Now tell me how many games have had successfully pulled off decades of conflict between two player factions?

You write a plausible and good storyline for 20 + years of faction conflict that wont upset either of the factions and I'll fund the development of that into a game.

How the fuck can you have constant conflict with no sides winning? Unless you tell faction x "don't worry guys 3 expansions from now you will turn it around and start beating back the other guys until they are the underdogs 5 expansions from now." you are going to have people dropping like flies and even then you will still have people quitting. No one wants to keep being on the losing side and no one will think any of the losses/wins are even. And how do you explain the constant influx of new soldiers to kill? It's not a realistic scenario eventually one side needs to win or both sides need to end the conflict. What countries in real life have stayed enemies and continually have wars for the entirety of their existence?

Look at ESO and SWTOR they repeatedly need to have everyone working together because you can't maintain a perma conflict between player factions. I'm sure there are other faction games but those are the two I remembered offhand. The mother fucking Empire and Republic have worked together......

The faction war is coming back with Onslaught. Zakuul was an exception.

[Dagoth Ur]

Non-faction war stuff has been weak, but the faction war is extremely destructive. People prefer weak story to story that destroys everything it touches.

It's just a shame people seem to attribute this to the faction war on conceptual level instead of Blizzard's shitty execution of it.

[Zulkhan]

Non-faction war stuff has been weak, but the faction war is extremely destructive. People prefer weak story to story that destroys everything it touches.

More or less. The non-faction war related content has increasingly grown unimaginative and boring, but the last attempts at creating a "faction war" Blizzard made have been embarassingly devastating, usually having a very few flashes of decent stuff utterly overwhelmed by a poorly developed plot (and BfA managed to surpass MoP by a whole mile in terms of awfulness).

[sam86]

Why is it considered a bullshit line. Do you have any proof?And the story has been fucked for gameplay reasons since forever. Realistically the war wouldn't have lasted this long either one side would have beat the other into submission or they would have stopped fighting long ago because it was pointless and they always work together to take on a big bad. The faction conflict has been the single worst story destroying plot in the entirety of WoW.

-The proof system require that u bring something to proof u are right, not me, my only prove is it doesn't exist
-The story (for better or worse) in vanilla didn't bend for gameplay, also it was very safe, minimal, but vanilla story specially added a lot to warcraft universe without ruining anything, a quest like "Nothing but the truth" or the (sadly non cannon anymore) forsaken priest class quest were some of best micro lore addition to warcraft, i admit that it was too small to fill large appetite that i bet most of us have, but at least it was healthy, i have no idea if that continued it would been better for game, tbh i think it would been very boring, still better than what we have now..
-The faction conflict while the point that destroy wow i agree is also the point that wow is built upon since day one, it didn't need to destroy wow if they did the vanilla lore system, it destroyed it because we reached point that horde invade their own capital helping alliance against their warchief, while horde were at best same as Nazgrim, hate their warchief but they would die defending him than helping alliance, if anything i wanted to keep alliance out and let horde solve it with each others, even if that means end of horde
And 'dw' blizz will remove faction conflict or at least make it minor, because right now horde lead world pve with zero competition, and i really can't blame a single ally player who qq about how horde dominate the game in BFA, just check last raid mythic raid, not even 20 alliance clear so far

[Super Dickmann]

Non-faction war stuff has been weak, but the faction war is extremely destructive. People prefer weak story to story that destroys everything it touches.

One of the less obvious but worst parts about BFA is the way it's pretty much gutted any prospect of future character-based or faction-based stories in favor of a procession of big bads the monolithic Unifaction walks over (harhar, N'zoth goes down in one patch while accomplishing jack) both by design and execution. Design-wise, neither Mists nor BFA were 'faction war' expansions in any real sense - they were done to gut the factions to their core and equalize their beliefs to be the same across the board, but their marketing was such that they got the monicker anyway. It's just that Mists failed.

What makes BFA even worse, past the fact that it succeeded, is that beyond just taking faction stories behind the barn it also took character stories behind the barn. Now BFA isn't a character-based story by any stretch of the imagination given how everyone is a meat puppet doing whatever is needed to advance the plot in contradiction with common sense and their own personality, with everything being accessory to the end goal of complete homogeneity. It does however wear the trappings of one with those character cinematics both in-game and out. BFA's deliberate failure in one area and accidental failure in the other will ensure all stories to come will ultimately about flawless heroes punching Satan before Satan can do jack shit. And that's terrible.

[Eazy]

Hahaha, the best two races in WoW(Night Elves(who were even more butchered in the WoW overall) and Forsaken) are getting butchered in BFA in the name of... peace/balance/whatever!

Awesome!

Good job Blizzard!


SPLENDID

Fucking a footman and then running away from zombies AND surviving isn't hard. Having your will stripped away, stuffed back into your own necromantic corpse only to eventually get your will back and to form a kingdom against a world that hate you is.

Calia never went through their struggles, does not understand them, and thinks the soul crushing magic that dampens their positive emotions can be cured with rainbows and kisses.

Although I get your point, and I agree that Sylvanas is million times better leader of Forsaken compared to Calia - I don't agree with that one paragraph.

I actually think that Calia had really bad moments in her life... seeing her own brother becoming a monster that killed her father and destroyed their kingdom is a one big tragedy.

[Super Dickmann]

I actually think that Calia had really bad moments in her life... seeing her own brother becoming a monster that killed her father and destroyed their kingdom is a one big tragedy.

While true, the difference with Calia is that she was the one watching this happen on the sidelines, she wasn't the actor forced to do it against her will or even the direct victim. Especially when compared to something like Nathanos' flashback to his time as a ghoul which really communicates the level of violation going on that Calia just has no frame of reference with. Derek sort of does though not quite, but as already said, it's what comes after when he does get his autonomy back that's night and day with what the Forsaken experienced.