Horde Striving Not To Be Warmongering = Horde Dead?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The right choice being use his power to subject other Horde races to his prejudice and line up Orcs loyal to him for the slaughter? Now he's six feet under and getting eaten by maggots. Sure seems like running supply lines might have been a better choice than encroaching on enemy territory. I understand Kalimdor is huge, but even in lore, goblins are known to be able to build incredible vehicles and flying machines. That might be a little exaggerated but not to the extent they couldn't possibly maintain a supply line and transport of goods from south of Southern Barrens. Sure that might have been subject to interference and attacks, but it's nothing Orcs couldn't defend, and surely would require less man power than fighting a war. Not to mention if they have ships that can take them to Northrend and Pandaria where they build strongholds, how does that reflect on their poverty back home? They can afford war, send troops oversee, build garrisons, footholds, and feed all troops, but back home they starve.

I'm accepting of the fact the writers chose this retconned plot device to justify Garrosh's power trip, but given player reception to it, and the end result being Garrosh dead, it seemed like even less a good idea to paint Thrall as a failure to prop up Garrosh only to end up with him dead on Nagrand with his face in the mud.

Right choice indeed.

garrosh being racist has absolutely nothing to do with ashenvale.

goblins also have a tendency to blow them self's and others up and this takes place during a time when there are dragons all over the place trying to bring in the hour of twilight, trying to run a flying supply line is the worse possible idea.

we also know for a fact that the orcs cant defend a supply line because we attack them in the battlefield barrens to cut them off from supply's. yes it would take less man power but it would also take much much longer at a point in time where they don't have time to waste.

mop is after they have a ton of resources from ashenvale and wrath is probably why they are so poor off as we know the alliance has mass poverty/starvation because of the war in nothrend why would the orcs be better off when they started at a worse spot?

[iamthedevil]

Half of the horde has been striving to not be war mongering for a very long time. Nothing new about this. Having split politics is the identity of many factions.

[Kyphael]

garrosh being racist has absolutely nothing to do with ashenvale.

goblins also have a tendency to blow them self's and others up and this takes place during a time when there are dragons all over the place trying to bring in the hour of twilight, trying to run a flying supply line is the worse possible idea.

we also know for a fact that the orcs cant defend a supply line because we attack them in the battlefield barrens to cut them off from supply's. yes it would take less man power but it would also take much much longer at a point in time where they don't have time to waste.

mop is after they have a ton of resources from ashenvale and wrath is probably why they are so poor off as we know the alliance has mass poverty/starvation because of the war in nothrend why would the orcs be better off when they started at a worse spot?

All right, I won't dispute those as they're well-sourced, so how do you explain The Horde's campaign in Outland, and before that, the Horde's status throughout Classic? They went to Outland and built footholds and strongholds there as well. They fed their soldiers and had the means to do so. And in Classic, was starvation a prevalent theme reflected in the Orc starting zone, and subsequent zones or quests? I don't recall, but I don't think so as it hasn't been cited as evidence that Thrall had truly fucked the Orcs, at least, not until the retcon that he did to make Garrosh look good.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

All right, I won't dispute those as they're well-sourced, so how do you explain The Horde's campaign in Outland, and before that, the Horde's status throughout Classic? They went to Outland and built footholds and strongholds there as well. They fed their soldiers and had the means to do so. And in Classic, was starvation a prevalent theme reflected in the Orc starting zone, and subsequent zones or quests? I don't recall, but I don't think so as it hasn't been cited as evidence that Thrall had truly fucked the Orcs, at least, not until the retcon that he did to make Garrosh look good.

for classic i really don't know as I've never actually done the horde quest or looked into the classic horde lore that's one of the main reasons ill be playing classic.

tbc was also kinda like a black hole for faction lore but id guess that outland was mostly supplied by the new factions in outlands while the orcs back on azeroth had supplies that were then all used in nothrend.

[steelballfc]

from my limited understanding of the lore here is my point of view
the Horde has been represented the whole time with one consistent theme "surviving".
- in WC1 you know the horde escaped Outland to Survive from dying world, and because the Horde was established by Warmonger Orcs, a race that needed to fight rocks and plants to live, the outcome choice to "survive" was to conquer another world, the plan failed and the horde collapsed.
-in WC3 another party of the Horde rises which advised that the key to Survive is to live peacefully away and uphold the shamanistic and tripe-like ideals of the Orcish Horde, lead by Thrall.
- and since then there are two voices within the Horde structure to survive, either live peacefully somewhere else away from the Alliance who all Horde race's had problem with, or Fight the alliance is the key to Survive.
- Thrall decided to give the Other voice in the Horde a chance to rise to the top in Garrosh who didn't like Thrall opinion, and then it go back with Vol'jin and then change again Sylv.
- that is also represented in Garrosh and Sylv times when members "in game" of the Horde cheers upon knowing they will fight the alliance, there are clear voice in the horde withing the lore who hate the alliance and want to fight them
- in BFA the new Allied race gave the "peace" voice the upper hand to decide the future of the Horde, which rule back to thrall hands
- so the Horde has not changed, because both voices were there all the time, and we as players of the Horde had also the same different opinion on how to deal with the issues of the horde, and at some point for sure the hand will go back to "war to survive horde" opinion in the future.

[Syegfryed]

The right choice being use his power to subject other Horde races to his prejudice and line up Orcs loyal to him for the slaughter?

i mean yes for the first half? the races pledged loyalty, maybe sometimes they should help the orcs like the orcs help then? it was not rly a slaughte but a fight back

Sure seems like running supply lines might have been a better choice than encroaching on enemy territory.

implying they would not be attacked anyway

Right choice indeed.

it was, and tot his very day he still have the benefits of his reign.

[Aresk]

There is no Horde.
Only a few races connected by nothing, talking to each other.

Orcs have nothing in common with blood Elves.
Goblins have nothing in common with Forsaken ect ect.
Races dont have the same values, views on matters or even history connecting them.

The warchief and the capital of Orgrimmar binded these races together now we might just aswell split up.

Orcs and blood elves are both people who have survived a leader who sold them out to the Legion.
Goblins and Forsaken have worked at finding themselves after some great villain focused on destroying life on Azeroth ravaged their homeland.

But I get what you're saying about going forward, the connections don't seem so strong. I kind of want to see people branch off into four factions (Alliance of humans, dwarves, gnomes; Sentinels of night elf, worgen, draenei; Horde of orcs, tauren, trolls; Forsaken of undead, blood elves, and goblins -- yeah, the last one isn't that great) and release the next Warcraft RTS game. I don't think that's the plan, but I'd definitely enjoy it.

[Super Dickmann]

All right, I won't dispute those as they're well-sourced, so how do you explain The Horde's campaign in Outland, and before that, the Horde's status throughout Classic? They went to Outland and built footholds and strongholds there as well. They fed their soldiers and had the means to do so. And in Classic, was starvation a prevalent theme reflected in the Orc starting zone, and subsequent zones or quests? I don't recall, but I don't think so as it hasn't been cited as evidence that Thrall had truly fucked the Orcs, at least, not until the retcon that he did to make Garrosh look good.

They didn't, that's what Heart of War tells you. That even for the Alliance, a far more sophisticated state with an actual agricultural sector rather than being forced into agriculture with zero experience towards that was strained in waging war in Outland and Northrend. When Garrosh first comes back, that's what he sees - famine and deprivation caused by the orcs going outside their present ability. As for when the - Durotar is barren thing was confirmed, past just looking at this red wasteland with one farm and like ten trees total outside the Echo Isles, it's in Wrath that tilt is made. Your claim of the implausibility that Durotar sucked is both weak and rather strange - you can tell that it's crap just from looking at it. The one thing that makes it a retcon is a) That WC3 Thrall is an infallible god-man, so he would never do this, and thus needs to be changed to be less infallible and b) that there's an obscure reference in Cycle of Hatred that Durotar is more densely wooded than Theramore, which never appears in any other version, including the game itself.

[Aeula]

What’s Horde about it anymore? The fact that it has Horde races and a red banner?

They’re more Alliance than the Alliance now in terms of philosophy. Everything that made them who they are is gone replaced by an overbearing desire for peace (Which the majority were against judging by how many sided with Sylvanas lorewise, but Blizzard blew it off as them loving Sylvanas more than wanting war for some stupid reason). They don’t even have a Warchief! Just a council of races who’re allied with one another!

Baine and Thrall are completely Anduinised and the rest aren’t far behind.

I would rather be evil like the WC1 and WC2 Horde than whatever this is. This isn’t what I signed up for 9 years ago.

[allawyn]

I'm still not understanding where it is you saw Anduin giving orders to Horde troops. I saw rebellion troops being given orders by a rebellion leader. Why is that such a big deal?

In "Negotiation" when Anduin walks up too the Horde troops and tells them to break camp.

And it is significant because it shows that they are under Alliance control.

[Evilfish]

What’s Horde about it anymore? The fact that it has Horde races and a red banner?

They’re more Alliance than the Alliance now in terms of philosophy. Everything that made them who they are is gone replaced by an overbearing desire for peace (Which the majority were against judging by how many sided with Sylvanas lorewise, but Blizzard blew it off as them loving Sylvanas more than wanting war for some stupid reason). They don’t even have a Warchief! Just a council of races who’re allied with one another!

Baine and Thrall are completely Anduinised and the rest aren’t far behind.

I would rather be evil like the WC1 and WC2 Horde than whatever this is. This isn’t what I signed up for 9 years ago.

I don't think many signed up for this crap. I don't mind playing the evil side when they have proper writers that can pen down that perspective, instead of fucking Christine Golden.

[Wylyth1992]

I don't want to play the evil side, I want to play the noble savage (for lack of a better term) side, which is what the WCIII+ Horde is suppose to be,

[therealbowser]

Horde did fine in vanilla, did fine in TBC, and did fine in WoD (can hate on the expansion all you want, they had plenty of quality lore there over the Alliance, however).

Pretending that the Horde is nothing more than a bunch of warmongering savages is kind of funny though, so I am going to spend some more time in seeing how this thread played out and where it leads to. Nowhere good, I'm sure, but still.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't think many signed up for this crap. I don't mind playing the evil side when they have proper writers that can pen down that perspective, instead of fucking Christine Golden.

If they get rid of Christie Golden, I wonder who the next scapegoat will be. It used to be Metzen (though now people are falling over themselves wanting him back). It's like the Lich King, there must always be a scapegoat.

[Katchii]

In "Negotiation" when Anduin walks up too the Horde troops and tells them to break camp.

And it is significant because it shows that they are under Alliance control.

I see both Saurfang and Anduin giving orders in that cinematic...nothing to signify Anduin is "in charge."

You're seriously blowing this out of proportion.

[Syegfryed]

I don't think many signed up for this crap. I don't mind playing the evil side when they have proper writers that can pen down that perspective, instead of fucking Christine Golden.

its because of people wanting to play evil that the horde is in this state, they tried to throw a bone for those and its goes to shit.the horde was not evil, and should not be painted as that because forsakens, cause there is a whole bunch of other races who share similar traits.

[Raisei]

its because of people wanting to play evil that the horde is in this state, they tried to throw a bone for those and its goes to shit.the horde was not evil, and should not be painted as that because forsakens, cause there is a whole bunch of other races who share similar traits.

Quite true. People who absolutely want to play an evil faction are simply wrong in this game. Neither Alliance nor Horde can possibly provide what you want. An evil faction simply cannot exist for extended periods of time for several reasons:

1) The laws of fiction pretty much state that an evil character will at some point get his comeupance. This may take longer but it will happen because the bigger part of the audience wants their deeds to be punished. Take that brat Jeoffrey (or whatever his name was) in GoTh, he was evil to the bone, pretty much visible from the first episode and the audience wanted to see him finally fail and fall. It took several seasons for him to die a painful death, but it happened. There surely are some fictional stories where this does not happen, but from the top of my head I cannot think of any. GoTh already is as dark as it can be and leaves its villains alive far longer then usual.

2) An evil faction is intrinsically bound to destroy itself. Take the Empire in SWTOR: The Sith are in a constant power struggle with each other and commit treachery against each other almost like a sport, simply because no evil Sith can ever accept to be subservient to another. They sabotage and spy and betray all on the cost of their factions war efforts. Evil people can by definition not cooperate or build a stable kingdom, empire or whatever. It is only when smarter people take the reigns and promote cooperation over self-serving power grabs, that such a faction can become more stable.

The modern Horde simply is not that faction. It never was. It is build on the idea of survival and cooperation not evil. Sure there was war with the Alliance, but that makes neither faction evil, they just both wanted to survive and sought ways of doing so.
But whenever evil beings took the power problems ensued because the basic ideas are no longer met. Garrosh's pro-orc rasicm promoted the backstabbing in his Horde and even within the orcs itself. Sylvanas did not even care for the Hordes survival and her idea of cooperation was that everyone should be happy to be her expendable tool.
The Forsaken might just be the biggest haven of evil people in Azeroth (after Sylvanas murdered most of the good ones) so it sticks out among the Horde, the Tauren helped them get in, but they surely do not support "Death to the Living", in fact no one in the Horde SHOULD support this goal, as it does include them. The only thing they had going for them was that they used their chemical weapons against the enemies of the Horde, so they were useful.
But otherwise their goals are completely incompatible with the Horde and if they do not change, there simply is no reasonable way to explain why they are allowed to stay with the Horde or be left "alive" for that matter. This is exactly why Calia is needed.

To put it simply: A crazy undead warlock that wants to blight forests and kill villages full of innocents is not invited for a feast, you lob their head off and hit it till it stops talking. That is what you do with a plain a evil being.

So basically if you think you signed up with the Horde to be evil, you are mistaken. If you want to continue to play an evil character you better hope that there will be a Sylvanas faction, because the Horde is and never was yours.

[Nixiuz]

Well WoW is story driven, so if Blizzard want to pacify the Horde by driving the story that way then that's how it is. Don't like that? Vote with your feet.

[Grazrug]

Quite true. People who absolutely want to play an evil faction are simply wrong in this game. Neither Alliance nor Horde can possibly provide what you want. An evil faction simply cannot exist for extended periods of time for several reasons:

1) The laws of fiction pretty much state that an evil character will at some point get his comeupance. This may take longer but it will happen because the bigger part of the audience wants their deeds to be punished. Take that brat Jeoffrey (or whatever his name was) in GoTh, he was evil to the bone, pretty much visible from the first episode and the audience wanted to see him finally fail and fall. It took several seasons for him to die a painful death, but it happened. There surely are some fictional stories where this does not happen, but from the top of my head I cannot think of any. GoTh already is as dark as it can be and leaves its villains alive far longer then usual.

2) An evil faction is intrinsically bound to destroy itself. Take the Empire in SWTOR: The Sith are in a constant power struggle with each other and commit treachery against each other almost like a sport, simply because no evil Sith can ever accept to be subservient to another. They sabotage and spy and betray all on the cost of their factions war efforts. Evil people can by definition not cooperate or build a stable kingdom, empire or whatever. It is only when smarter people take the reigns and promote cooperation over self-serving power grabs, that such a faction can become more stable.

The modern Horde simply is not that faction. It never was. It is build on the idea of survival and cooperation not evil. Sure there was war with the Alliance, but that makes neither faction evil, they just both wanted to survive and sought ways of doing so.
But whenever evil beings took the power problems ensued because the basic ideas are no longer met. Garrosh's pro-orc rasicm promoted the backstabbing in his Horde and even within the orcs itself. Sylvanas did not even care for the Hordes survival and her idea of cooperation was that everyone should be happy to be her expendable tool.
The Forsaken might just be the biggest haven of evil people in Azeroth (after Sylvanas murdered most of the good ones) so it sticks out among the Horde, the Tauren helped them get in, but they surely do not support "Death to the Living", in fact no one in the Horde SHOULD support this goal, as it does include them. The only thing they had going for them was that they used their chemical weapons against the enemies of the Horde, so they were useful.
But otherwise their goals are completely incompatible with the Horde and if they do not change, there simply is no reasonable way to explain why they are allowed to stay with the Horde or be left "alive" for that matter. This is exactly why Calia is needed.

To put it simply: A crazy undead warlock that wants to blight forests and kill villages full of innocents is not invited for a feast, you lob their head off and hit it till it stops talking. That is what you do with a plain a evil being.

So basically if you think you signed up with the Horde to be evil, you are mistaken. If you want to continue to play an evil character you better hope that there will be a Sylvanas faction, because the Horde is and never was yours.

Wrong. The horde is evil at its core. Scapegoating individuals for that won't change this fact. It's just poor excuses to shift the blame from yerself. The sooner horde rebels accept this, the faster we get rid of the recycled MoP narrative. If you want to be a good guy saving the world, go and play as alliance instead.

[Reinhart11]

There are so many different kinds of evil. I don't have a problem with Horde races having certain kinds of evil aspects and nuances. The Alliance races should have as well. Of course there can also be races who tend more in one direction than the other. The thing that doesn't make sense and would be pretty boring, would be a race that is evil incarnate in my opinion. Completely chaotic evil, like demons. But no Horde race was or is like that. What is also completely boring would be a race that represents absolute good. Like a whole race of Anduins.

I bet a lot of ancient cultures and people saw the Romans and the Mongols as evil, cruel, imperialistic conquerors. But a bunch of others may not. And we today certainly don't look at them as absolutely evil dipshits. The same as we don't see many other tribes, kingdoms and empires as solely evil or good.

I don't understand why a lot of players don't want any more or less evil aspects in WoW when it comes to the playable races. Hell, the humans, at least one of their kingdoms or part of their noble lords and population, could and should show imperialistic behaviour and desire. Same for the Dwarves. That would make the humans of Stormwind more interesting and engaging. Compared to what they're now.

But in most conversations, for most people, there is either good or evil and nothing in between. Black or white. And black is not allowed. If you want to play a race in a god damn fantasy game which is evil, you're a racist nazi who likes to conquer, torture and kill people in real life as well of course. As if people are to retarded to differentiate between a fantasy world in a game and the real world. Completely idiotic.

[Yarathir]

It would be nice for the Horde to be actual underdogs for once, not just aggressive crybullies led by a tyrannical madman.