Once again Europe does not support the will of the people

[Hif]

Spain just decided to send the Catalan independence leaders to 13 years in jail for their right to self determination. Something every country has agreed to and supported when they sign up to the UN charter.

This is pathetic. Let the people of Catalan vote and let them decide in a democratic process. They have the basic right to self determination.

For Kosovo its okay to get independence. Same with the Kurds. But nope not for the people of Catalan.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ison-sentences

[Zoranon]

There is no such thing as a right to have an independence referendum whenever you want. And declaring independence may have negative consequences, as both Kurds and Catalans found out recently.

That said the sentence are too severe.

Practically speaking, there is no right to self-determination. Either you are strong enough (or have strong allies) to win independence, or you are allowed to secede. In other cases, you remain part of the greater country. And just as well, unlimited right to secede would destroy the worlds economy and political system.

[Hif]

There is no such thing as a right to have an independence referendum whenever you want. And declaring independence may have negative consequences, as both Kurds and Catalans found out recently.

That said the sentence are too severe.

Practically speaking, there is no right to self-determination. Either you are strong enough (or have strong allies) to win independence, or you are allowed to secede. In other cases, you remain part of the greater country. And just as well, unlimited right to secede would destroy the worlds economy and political system.

https://www.un.org/en/sections/un-ch...r-i/index.html

The UN begs to differ and note it is the very first chapter of the UN charter. Something the Allies drafted after world war 2.

[Cerilis]

I dont think thats gonna work to distract from your genocide.

[Hif]

The EU had nothing at all to do with this. This is a domestic issue of Spain, period. The EU specifically doesn't interfere. Also who says it isn't the will of the people (of all of Spain) that no secession takes place? They are the ones that voted the current government into power, after all.

Catalonia has been a part of Spain for quite some time now. Granting them the right to just leave would be akin to having Texas or Cali leave the USA. You won't see that happen either. Why is it so bad in this case all of a sudden?

So I guess you should support Kosovo's bid for independence from Serbia or South Sudan's bid for independence from Sudan or East Timor from Indonesia?

Secondly the European court of human rights has the mandate to get involved.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...f_Human_Rights

The European Court of Human Rights (ECHR or ECtHR; French: Cour européenne des droits de l’homme) is a supranational or international court established by the European Convention on Human Rights. The court hears applications alleging that a contracting state has breached one or more of the human rights provisions concerning civil and political rights set out in the Convention and its protocols.

So yes. Europe is involved.

[Hif]

I don't support or unsupport(?) any secession movement that has nothing to do with my own home country. It's simply not my place.

Also i update my post to link the case to the European Court of Human Rights.

[Dhrizzle]

The referendum was declared illegal by both Spanish and Catalan courts, less than half the electorate turned out and international observers said it did not meet the standards of a fair election.

[Hif]

Last I checked "right to secede" isn't a human right.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination

yes it is. The UN charter defines it as such.

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The referendum was declared illegal by both Spanish and Catalan courts, less than half the electorate turned out and international observers said it did not meet the standards of a fair election.

Proof?

X10 char

[Mihalik]

The referendum was declared illegal by both Spanish and Catalan courts, less than half the electorate turned out and international observers said it did not meet the standards of a fair election.

This. Not much else to ad.

The Catalan nationalist referendums are about as legit as the "referendum" Russia organized in Crimea about annexing Crimea after it annexed Crimea.

[Dhrizzle]

Proof?

X10 char

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41196677
https://www.elnacional.cat/en/news/c...95894_102.html
https://elpais.com/politica/2017/10/...29_416345.html

[Hif]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41196677
https://www.elnacional.cat/en/news/c...95894_102.html
https://elpais.com/politica/2017/10/...29_416345.html

Maybe i am missing it but where did international observers say it wasn't legitimate? And who were the international observers? All I see is actions taken by the government to stop the right to self determination.

Just like the Serbians did to the Kosovars or Indonesia did to the East Timorese.

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From your own link, in the leading section:

(Emphasis by me.)

Agreed it doesn't say how the outcome should be. But it does say that it is a fundamental freedom enshrined in the UN charter and that people have it as a basic right. Stopping that basic right is a violation of the UN charter.

It was the basis for decolonization.

[Hif]

I am not even interesting in engaging with the OP, mainly with elucidating what self-determination is in this context as well as making my opinion known that the use of self-determination as an excuse for secession is not at all established.

See that is the hypocrisy of the west. Self-determination has been used in Kosovo, South Sudan and East Timor to establish new countries. It will be used to give the Kurds their legitimate right to their own nation state. And even that will be supported.

But in the case of Catalan it won't be. And excuses will be made.

The UN charter is clear. Its a right of all people. The right to self-determination.

[Bakis]

So far you brought zero solid arguments OP but whatever floats your boat I guess...

[Hif]

You obviously cannot read. Self-determination was a small part of that reasoning. Discrimination and persecution were the actual determining factors. You can continue ignoring the fact of course.

No its not. Its the legal justification under international law. It was the basis for the East Timorese independence.

As an example:
http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/journa...L/2004/17.html

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So far you brought zero solid arguments OP but whatever floats your boat I guess...

I guess the UN charter doesn't count.

[Mayhem]

You obviously cannot read. Self-determination was a small part of that reasoning. Discrimination and persecution were the actual determining factors. You can continue ignoring the fact of course.

I guess in his mind every territory within a country has the right to secession if they just so wish.

[Mayhem]

No its not. Its the legal justification under international law. It was the basis for the East Timorese independence.

As an example:
http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/journa...L/2004/17.html

So we're just going to ignore the 24 years of occupation and what led to the invasion in 1975? It was just East Timor wanting to secede and that was that.

[Hif]

I guess in his mind every territory within a country has the right to secession if they just so wish.

They actually do. It is how South Sudan, Kosovo and East Timor became countries. It is the basis on which the Kurds, the Baloch, the Kashmiris and so many others have demanded their rights.

https://www.asil.org/insights/volume...ases-kurdistan

That is the American Society for International law. It compares the Kurdish case and the Catalan case. It states:

Under international law, minority groups that qualify as “peoples” have the right to self-determination: the ability to freely determine their political fate and form a representative government.[4] The principle of self-determination can be traced back to the end of World War I, when the losing powers, Germany, Austria-Hungary, and the Ottoman Empire, were stripped of their colonies and when several new states were created out of the territory of these former empires.[5]

[Mayhem]

Why a territory. The right of self-determination is a human right. I hereby declare my house the Country of Nimrod! Suck that Greece, no taxes for you.

So, no changes anyway? :P

[Hif]

So we're just going to ignore the 24 years of occupation and what led to the invasion in 1975? It was just East Timor wanting to secede and that was that.

You mean the fact that Europe colonized the area which was originally part of the island and decided artificially based on on its on views that it was independent territory?

A quick question. What was difference between East and West timor before a bunch of white guys showed up to divide them up?

[Hif]

So, no changes anyway? :P

Nope not for international law. International law says I have a right to call for the self-determination of Nimrod. And i get to collect all the taxes I want from whatever i define as my territory.

The UN and the International law allows for it. Doesn't change your ignorance either.