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  1. #1041
    Quote Originally Posted by Freaking Frumpy Frak View Post
    Then what's the excuse for all the lgbtqp pride stuff? One would think there are a large number of people (non-westerners, orthodox Christians/Muslims, conservatives) who would consider that topic rather politically devisive too, regardless of how well intentioned it may be.
    The pride argument doesn't directly hit other countries. Supporting the lgbt movement wont affect their business relationships with other markets. It may be devisive but it's not a direct hit against a specific country, that's what I mean.

    Or are we going to say that's ok because that's a political stance Blizzard has actually chosen for itself? If so, does that mean Blizzard has chosen not to support freedom for Hong Kong?
    They have made a "business" choice that (may) have consequences, yes. they need China and they can't risk to lose it.

    If someone yelled "Feedom for Congo" I seriously doubt they would have annihilated the player and then officially apologized to the Congo government.

  2. #1042
    Quote Originally Posted by MrLoque View Post
    The pride argument doesn't directly hit other countries. Supporting the lgbt movement wont affect their business relationships with other markets. It may be devisive but it's not a direct hit against a specific country, that's what I mean.
    I don't see how targeting a nation is any worse than targeting an ethnicity, religion or culture.

    They have made a "business" choice that (may) have consequences, yes. they need China and they can't risk to lose it.
    Uh, that's exactly the point people are making. They're letting a regime that rivals Nazi Germany in terms of its evil dictate their practices for the sake of profit.

  3. #1043
    They should change it to "Every voice matters BUT the voice of the bloodthirsty China regime matters more than all others". They disgraced themselves by doing this. They should pack their stuff and move all the company and employees to China to enjoy the "benefits" of mainland China.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freaking Frumpy Frak View Post
    Uh, that's exactly the point people are making. They're letting a regime that rivals Nazi Germany in terms of its evil dictate their practices for the sake of profit.
    Rival? China comunist regime beats the nazi one in all aspects. The kill count during Mao's time is almost as high as the total deaths of freaking Second World War (with casualites all around the globe and from all nations envolved). Estimatives go from 50 millions to even 70 millions. NOTHING can beat China Comunist party when it comes to mass murdering. I am not sure if we will ever see a government kill as many people as China has in the near future (or in the future at all).

    I totally understand the population of Hong Kong fight, if they lose they will be brutalized into submission. God knows how many Winnie the Pooh and his drones will kill in order to break their will. Its heartbreaking really. Sad all we can do is spread the news and hope governments all around the world do something!
    English is not my main language so grammar errors might happen.

  4. #1044
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    The player who was suspended, Blitz something has released a statement and thanked Blizzard. He was being humble. Clearly he isn't outraged like you guys are, thus there's no reason for you to be.
    Agree. He fucked up then Blizzard overreacted, and now they have come to a middle ground.

    I am going to BlizzCon with my 14 YO to have fun and celebrate Blizzard Games.

    Protesting at a video game con isnt actually doing anything about the situation in Hong Kong.
    If you feel so strongly about it get off your keyboard and actually make a difference.

  5. #1045
    Quote Originally Posted by Freaking Frumpy Frak View Post
    Or are we going to say that's ok because that's a political stance Blizzard has actually chosen for itself? If so, does that mean Blizzard has chosen not to support freedom for Hong Kong?
    Well, yes? Doesn't every person and every company have the right to choose to participate or to be neutral in any given issue? Because they support LGBTQ they are obliged to take a political stance in every political/social issue and can never be neutral?

    Do you also go shout at charities for homeless or for sick people "ok you care about homeless/cancer patients, but why don't you care about human rights in China!?" ?

    Yes, on a corporate level it's nothing more than marketing. A business decision to attempt to increase profit. It isn't a revelation, and it's nothing short of expected. Just like remaining neutral regarding China is a business decision to their best interest, because they have more to gain remaining neutral than they have supporting either side.

    The real question is: Why shouldn't they remain neutral? They're a videogame developing business. Choosing to "go against" China will accomplish nothing short of cutting their prospects on an emerging market, and changing nothing about China apart from potentially not having Blizzard games there anymore.

    It's governments and international institutions that should be pressuring China, not videogame companies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nefastus View Post
    They should change it to "Every voice matters BUT the voice of the bloodthirsty China regime matters more than all others". They disgraced themselves by doing this.
    "Every voice matters" does not equal "Every voice shall be heard through our official channels".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freaking Frumpy Frak View Post
    Uh, that's exactly the point people are making. They're letting a regime that rivals Nazi Germany in terms of its evil dictate their practices for the sake of profit.
    Do you also condemn the countries which chose not to take arms against Germany in WWII and chose to remain neutral instead?
    Last edited by Kolvarg; 2019-10-14 at 02:56 PM.

  6. #1046
    Quote Originally Posted by Muajin76 View Post
    hmm...when did people wear KKK hooods during a match?

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    However, the KKK doesn't make Blizz any money like China does i'm sure. This was purely for their financial stability regarding China. They can say it has nothing to do with their decision all they want, but everyone knows it 100% does. Heaven forbid they lose Chinese business for supporting their *every voice counts* for their motto..T.T

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    I'm sure people in mainland China have.
    Also blizzard has banned people from wow for having names like twogender or adolfhealer not banning blitzung would be double standards and as showing support for "free hong movement" currently is showing support for the rioters who beat up bystanders who don't support the movement or yell stupid shit to rioters.

    So how does Chinese government give blizzard money or buy anything from them?

  7. #1047
    Quote Originally Posted by Freaking Frumpy Frak View Post
    I don't see how targeting a nation is any worse than targeting an ethnicity, religion or culture.

    Uh, that's exactly the point people are making. They're letting a regime that rivals Nazi Germany in terms of its evil dictate their practices for the sake of profit.
    wrong theyre not letting china dictate anything. They just dont want any political talk allowed in their tournament. if they did they'd need to allow everything including things you dont agree with which is a slippery slope

  8. #1048
    Even the response is disgraceful. Shame.

  9. #1049
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodykiller86 View Post
    wrong theyre not letting china dictate anything. They just dont want any political talk allowed in their tournament. if they did they'd need to allow everything including things you dont agree with which is a slippery slope
    Freedom of speech is not a slippery slope; its entire point is to protect unpopular opinions. To this end the ACLU has famously defended the rights of actual Nazis and other hate groups to to peacefully assemble as is their First Amendment right. Obviously, China is not the U.S. and is not subject to our laws; however, Blizzard is a U.S. company and purports to uphold the ideals Americans rightly, or wrongly, associate themselves with. The flak they are getting now is because it has become clear that the values espoused by a brand are only upheld when they are economically convenient. The fact that China jails human rights activists and journalists, persecutes religious minorities, and operates concentration camps doesn't help either.

    In addition, that Taiwanese Hearthstone players compete internationally under a ridiculous "Chinese Taipei" flag undercuts the idea that China is not dictating terms to Blizzard.

  10. #1050
    Quote Originally Posted by eil View Post
    Freedom of speech is not a slippery slope; its entire point is to protect unpopular opinions. To this end the ACLU has famously defended the rights of actual Nazis and other hate groups to to peacefully assemble as is their First Amendment right. Obviously, China is not the U.S. and is not subject to our laws; however, Blizzard is a U.S. company and purports to uphold the ideals Americans rightly, or wrongly, associate themselves with. The flak they are getting now is because it has become clear that the values espoused by a brand are only upheld when they are economically convenient. The fact that China jails human rights activists and journalists, persecutes religious minorities, and operates concentration camps doesn't help either.

    In addition, that Taiwanese Hearthstone players compete internationally under a ridiculous "Chinese Taipei" flag undercuts the idea that China is not dictating terms to Blizzard.
    Freedom of speech is goverment related man, you dont have freedom of speech without consequences at work. Just try to go to a job and curse everyone out or talk politics without getting fired lol its not going to happen

  11. #1051
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodykiller86 View Post
    Freedom of speech is goverment related man, you dont have freedom of speech without consequences at work. Just try to go to a job and curse everyone out or talk politics without getting fired lol its not going to happen
    I never spoke to the public v. private reach of the First Amendment, I merely pointed out your assertion that freedom of speech is a "slippery slope" is false on its face and by its very definition. My argument was this: Americans by-and-large value free speech, Blizzard has acted to curtail speech, therefore Americans who value said speech have reason to be upset at Blizzard. I have not argued, nor will I, that Blizzard's actions were somehow illegal. I will argue, however, that their actions should be seen as inconsistent with the values shared by liberal democracies and deserve the public outcry they are receiving.

  12. #1052
    j allen brack SHOULD BE FIRED FOR THIS

  13. #1053
    Quote Originally Posted by eil View Post
    Freedom of speech is not a slippery slope; its entire point is to protect unpopular opinions. To this end the ACLU has famously defended the rights of actual Nazis and other hate groups to to peacefully assemble as is their First Amendment right. Obviously, China is not the U.S. and is not subject to our laws; however, Blizzard is a U.S. company and purports to uphold the ideals Americans rightly, or wrongly, associate themselves with. The flak they are getting now is because it has become clear that the values espoused by a brand are only upheld when they are economically convenient. The fact that China jails human rights activists and journalists, persecutes religious minorities, and operates concentration camps doesn't help either.

    In addition, that Taiwanese Hearthstone players compete internationally under a ridiculous "Chinese Taipei" flag undercuts the idea that China is not dictating terms to Blizzard.
    Freedom of speech is not an issue here. Freedom of speech is a right bestowed by our Constitution to forbid our government of abridging speech, it's not a license to say anything, and there's no implicit contract in it that requires corporations to uphold that right, or uphold "American ideals". You might be offended by Blizzard not waving the American flag and going "Rah rah America" here, but they have no responsibility to do so, and never have - that itself is part and parcel to the freedoms of speech our Constitution acknowledges - that our government cannot silence us, or tell us what to say, like "You have to be pro America at all times."

    purports to uphold the ideals Americans rightly, or wrongly, associate themselves with
    I fail to see where they purport this in any way. They support a code of gameplay (devised internally in their company), this "play fair" thing, and "ever voice matters" that's vague and broad that doesn't specify race, creed, religion or political bent, but again, that's not a contract, nor is it or was it ever implied or state that those are "American" ideals. You're assigning a lot of intent on Blizzard's part with no proof or basis here. And, they had a vague, broadly worded contract that allows them to ban and punish participants in any way they want to, which almost certainly was the intent of the lawyers who crafted it. It has nothing to do with "American ideals", it's about "Our platform, our rules".

    This doesn't mean I support Blizzard here - they made their bed doing business in China, and now they get to deal with a situation they created, and they're trying to appease both sides - I don't usually agree with Mark Kern, on anything, but here I think he's right - Blizzard's response is a very lawyerly one, meant to appease everyone - the governments involved, the companies, the investors, and lastly, the players, and it was poorly done. They created the scandal, and they're flubbing the damage control. That's on them. J Allen's response was mealy mouthed and weasel worded, yes. I think we can all agree on that.

    But leave freedom of speech out of it, trying to bring it into the discussion says to me you don't have a proper understanding of what it is. You're trying to make the case that Blizzard has a requirement to support and push "American ideals', and the very idea itself is repugnant, that any company or person in America would be required to do so, for any reason. That goes against every interpretation of freedom of speech I've ever encountered.

    But, considering you posted

    its entire point is to protect unpopular opinions
    Says to me you don't understand what the First Amendment is. It's very simple.

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

    Emphasis mine. "Shall make no law" - the First Amendment puts a restraint on the government, specifically the Congress, from passing laws from censoring or abridging speech. Not Blizzard, not you, not me, not the Chinese government, the U.S. Congress is forbidden. Popularity of ideas, or unpopularity, has nothing to do with it, it's just the government cannot pass laws forbidding the expression of them. Like passing laws forbidding Blizzard of making decisions to ban players for expressing opinions on their non-governmental, private corporation platform.

    Look, it's fine to not like how Blizzard is acting here. I'm with you there. It's repugnant and everyone knows what the deal is, but stop dragging things like the First Amendment into it. It's not relevant to what's going on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eil View Post
    I never spoke to the public v. private reach of the First Amendment, I merely pointed out your assertion that freedom of speech is a "slippery slope" is false on its face and by its very definition. My argument was this: Americans by-and-large value free speech, Blizzard has acted to curtail speech, therefore Americans who value said speech have reason to be upset at Blizzard. I have not argued, nor will I, that Blizzard's actions were somehow illegal. I will argue, however, that their actions should be seen as inconsistent with the values shared by liberal democracies and deserve the public outcry they are receiving.
    Very well put. It's always surprising to me the fundamental misunderstanding people have about the First Amendment, and what it is.

  14. #1054
    Quote Originally Posted by eil View Post
    I never spoke to the public v. private reach of the First Amendment, I merely pointed out your assertion that freedom of speech is a "slippery slope" is false on its face and by its very definition. My argument was this: Americans by-and-large value free speech, Blizzard has acted to curtail speech, therefore Americans who value said speech have reason to be upset at Blizzard. I have not argued, nor will I, that Blizzard's actions were somehow illegal. I will argue, however, that their actions should be seen as inconsistent with the values shared by liberal democracies and deserve the public outcry they are receiving.
    yeah but at the end of the day they are a business, people cant just go around saying whatever they want at least at these tournaments. Free speech is a slippery slope in the context of a business. imagine that they allowed everyone to say whatever they wanted at a tournament, people could go up there and support views on things you dont agree, IE support trump, hate trump, support or hate putting kids in cages etc etc and this would cause even more issues with blizzard than this has. Theyre only trying to avoid these issues completely by disallowing it and i think its the right approach when it comes to business. And if people decide to ignore those rules then they will face the consequences be it banning or whatever.

    Personally i still don't see any of blizzards actions as wrong. the casters were complicit, the player knew the rules and decided to use a gaming platform as his own. There's no complete free speech without consequences when it comes to these events and people should honestly know better. My main issue with the community is how people are equating blizzards actions as them supporting china's atrocities is false equivalency at its best. they support money and thats pretty much what all businesses support.

  15. #1055
    We have a statement and an apology to china that not only contradict each other but also goes against the "keep politics out of our stage" argument.

    To the oblivious posters here this whole thing isn't about the guy. He broke the rules, not a single soul should be disputing this fact. It's simply about Blizzard's disingenuous behavior

  16. #1056
    Quote Originally Posted by tikcol View Post
    We have a statement and an apology to china that not only contradict each other but also goes against the "keep politics out of our stage" argument.

    To the oblivious posters here this whole thing isn't about the guy. He broke the rules, not a single soul should be disputing this fact. It's simply about Blizzard's disingenuous behavior
    You mean the apology written by Netease because only Chinese companies can use Chinese "twitter" to talk to Chinese citizens.

    All external companies have to have a Chinese "partner" in china to do all distribution and communication, it's part of the Chinese filter.

  17. #1057
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Nope. It's either #fuckblizzard or you are a drone. Which ironically makes the people with that mindset drones themselves. Only thinking binary and doesn't realise there are nuances and rational behind peoples opinions. I wouldn't bother with them.
    Not gonna lie, I was expecting someone flaming me. But yeah, that was actually quite well said, kudos to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freaking Frumpy Frak View Post
    To paraphrase someone else:

    "Yes, we understand he broke the catch all 'if you do literally anything we decide we don't like, we reserve the right to ban you and take your money' clause in his contract, but that doesn't doesn't mean you're not still scum for punishing a guy for making an innocent show of support for his country's fight for freedom."
    Well, it is not catch all tho. Just don't talk politics. Talk about the game, and nothing would've happened to him. This line just screams, ** Don't use our broadcast for your political opinions**.

  18. #1058
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    Not gonna lie, I was expecting someone flaming me. But yeah, that was actually quite well said, kudos to you.

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    Well, it is not catch all tho. Just don't talk politics. Talk about the game, and nothing would've happened to him. This line just screams, ** Don't use our broadcast for your political opinions**.
    Don't know how many times it needs to be said but. it's not a political opinion, unless you're willing to say you're actually against freedom and democracy. Someone stood up for civil rights, NOT political opinion-spreading. Civil rights and he defense of them should not be met with punishment, and definitely not while hiding behind some bogus excuse calling it "political opinion". Last time a country in the west did that we got Nazi Germany.

  19. #1059
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny212 View Post
    Don't know how many times it needs to be said but. it's not a political opinion, unless you're willing to say you're actually against freedom and democracy. Someone stood up for civil rights, NOT political opinion-spreading. Civil rights and he defense of them should not be met with punishment, and definitely not while hiding behind some bogus excuse calling it "political opinion". Last time a country in the west did that we got Nazi Germany.
    You can use "heated topics" if that is better. Which is what political opinion usually means.
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2019-10-14 at 09:51 PM.

  20. #1060
    I'm ok with there being a punishment, Blitzchung did break the rules, and he knew this. The sacrifice adds to the power of his statement.

    Blizzard has every right to say that this is not the forum for these types of statements, but that being said ANY followup other than offering the support and best wishes to the people fighting for basic human rights is unacceptable.

    J. Allen Brack you are a coward. YOU have the power to speak up. This would not be without consequence, but nothing in comparison to the consequences the protesters in Hong Kong face.

    I have initiated a deletion of my account which I have had since wow beta. This includes all blizzard games, multiple collectors editions including vanilla wow-mop and d3. My friends have begged me not to, and even offered to pay for my subscriptions. But this ins't just about denying Blizzard my 15 dollars for a few months, its about sending a message that I am done with a company who blatantly chooses money over basic human rights.

    I have had major issues with the development direction of Blizzard games for the better part of the last 5 years but I was looking forward to D4, guess Path of Exile season 87 will suffice.

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